Vända Polaris - LIVE on Kickstarter

[davegk]

The Polaris decks by Vända Playing Cards will launch on kickstarter TOMORROW (December 27th) at 6pm PST.

Check out the Facebook launch contest with FREE prizes here:

http://www.facebook.com/VandaPlayingCar ... tif_t=like" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-David

[CBJ]

You need a better option for Canadian backers

[davegk]

You need a better option for Canadian backers

I'm going to offer a special edition collectible Canadian Poker Chip, included FREE with any orders shipping to a canadian address (and available for purchase additionally to non-canadian backers).

[billysac]

Is it possible to pledge without the wooden card and get a deck a bit cheaper?

[CBJ]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gol ... n=5596c216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

man I just reviewed this... after the first 100 backers.. it's $15 for the first deck, and an additional $7 for the second deck.
That's $22 for both decks for Americans (and a total of $17 for 1 deck (or $30 for 2) for outside the US)

The only way to stop these over-priced KS playing card campaigns is to not pledge for them.

I for one will not be picking these up, and I will no longer be pledging for any overpriced KS campaigns.

CBJ

[UtterFool]

I agree 100% with CBJ
Kickstarter is not designed for you to sell something and make a profit. It is designed to kick start an idea, business, or product. A product you make could be sold later for a profit but in the campaign you should be raising enough to get tarted not to get paid.

On top of this, I will never pledge on a project of any kind for a person until they fulfill there last project.
The Vanda cards have not been delivered yet (in fact there hasn't been an update on them in a while) and because of that I won't be pledging for these.
If the Vanda decks are delivered before this campaign ends (doesn't seem likely) then I would probably be in for these as well, but not before them. I personally think you should be ashamed starting another campaign before you finished the last

[CBJ]

Kickstarter is not designed for you to sell something and make a profit. It is designed to kick start an idea, business, or product. A product you make could be sold later for a profit but in the campaign you should be raising enough to get tarted not to get paid.

I don't actually agree with this statement. Of course I expect them to make profit! Why the hell would anyone do it for free?
The issue I have is that there are tons of campaigns the charge WAYYYYYY less. These designers see that Pedale design deck sell for $15 and generate $150,000.. and they think.. I can do that!

I'm done with these insane priced decks.

CBJ

[UtterFool]

I was not stating that people should do it for free. What I was stating is that the reason kickstarter was designed was to help get projects of many kinds funded so that the could then go and do something with it. Sell the product they produced, put on the play, run the business. The end goal is profit, but the campaign itself was not suppose to be for profit ( this is not my opinion, this was in fact the original goal of kickstarter)
Therefore I don't feel people should be selling there product at or above the retail level they should be selling it so that they can raise enough to get the project actually funded not to make a huge profit. The profit should come when they sell the remaining product at retail value.
I.e you offer a deck at $5 - $6 you print 5000 you need $15000 to get the deck printed you offer up 3000 of those decks + other accessories ( uncut sheets, poker chips, dice, pillows, necklaces , whatever) and you try to get funded with some stretch in there to cover all shipping and fees. You then sell the rest of the decks you produced at $10 a pop, which seems pretty standard for custom decks from smaller companies, and you make your profit.
I will agree that some people will make money if they have an awesome project and run a good campaign, but the original mission of kickstarter was not that and I don't believe the people who are putting some of the campaigns recently use it as such, but in fact that was it's design

[neongrey]

By the same token, Kickstarter is not a store, and it's not just a fancy preorder system. The idea of pledging at all is you give the money to the Kickstarter owner because you want to see them do what they're collecting money for. Generally, pledges for a physical object are in the same realm of cost as the retail value of the finished project-- a good percieved value is a good way to entice people's interest, but in effect it's a thank-you gift for your support.

[alric]

OK, it looks like the first deck you order comes with a wooden card and you have to pay $10/$15 for those. Then, if you want extra decks, it looks like its just $7 per deck ($8 international) to add on to your order. The $7 price point is reasonable, they just make you get a wooden card with the first deck. Now I don't know if its worth paying extra on the first deck just for the wooden card, but I think the wooden card is kind of cool and is serially numbered out of 10,000.

[SeanWhelan]

Wow that is pretty damn expensive for 1 deck. That's why I don't understand why more people aren't pledging more for my Lucent deck. $8 per deck and I gave love to international buyers since 40 - 50% of my backers last time were international.

I designed a deck of playing cards because that was my dream since I was in 9th grade (Almost 10 years ago now). My friend showed me the Black Tiger deck from E and I told myself one day I'm going to have my own deck. It took me years later to develop the skills I have to design, years of college, studying etc but my dream came true when I made the Galvanic deck.

You want to know the funny part? Almost everyone I talked to or showed off the deck such as family or friends, the first question is always: How much profit did you get??
My face drops everytime. Not many people can say they've accomplished one of their goals at such a young age (I'm 23 just to throw that out there), yet all anyone cares about now is the money.

I went into designing playing cards because of the passion not for the money. I've always believed in the saying "Do what you love and the money will follow". That quote proved itself with the Galvanic deck. Not a whole lot of profit but enough to get things rolling and put my foot in the door.

You shouldn't rip people off right from the beginning. These people are helping you create what's been in your head, your goal, your own personal project come to life.

That's just my two cents about over charging for Kickstarter decks.

[SeanWhelan]

Also just throwing this out there but that page seems way too much like a store rather than a Kickstarter project.

[davegk]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gol ... n=5596c216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

man I just reviewed this... after the first 100 backers.. it's $15 for the first deck, and an additional $7 for the second deck.
That's $22 for both decks for Americans (and a total of $17 for 1 deck (or $30 for 2) for outside the US)

The only way to stop these over-priced KS playing card campaigns is to not pledge for them.

I for one will not be picking these up, and I will no longer be pledging for any overpriced KS campaigns.

CBJ

Just to make things clear, this is not an overpriced campaign. To give you an idea of budget, the Vanda decks cost almost $14,000 just for the printing. That doesn't include production of any of the accessories, kickstarter fees, amazon fees, fulfillment costs (supplies + shipping), or compensation for the months spent designing the cards, accessories, and website and the countless hours spent promoting the project, including writing promo copy, designing promo images, and submitting to publications plus engaging on facebook, discussion forums, and other social media channels. In hindsight, I definitely didn't charge enough for the Vanda decks which is why I've structured the Polaris project a bit differently.

-David

[doobybrain]

It sounds to me like this deck should just be printed and not funded on Kickstarter at all. Print in lower quantities, charge whatever you want, and bank your project on the belief that you've created something worth buying. You already know how you're doing it, you just need to do it -- without Kickstarter.

And if you find out later that your decks aren't selling, that's not a bad thing. It just means you need to work harder. Ventures like this take risk and sometimes it feels like Kickstarter takes the risk and mystery out of it. If it's good, people will buy it. If not, people won't.

[Eyeball]

Wow that is pretty damn expensive for 1 deck. That's why I don't understand why more people aren't pledging more for my Lucent deck. $8 per deck and I gave love to international buyers since 40 - 50% of my backers last time were international.

I designed a deck of playing cards because that was my dream since I was in 9th grade (Almost 10 years ago now). My friend showed me the Black Tiger deck from E and I told myself one day I'm going to have my own deck. It took me years later to develop the skills I have to design, years of college, studying etc but my dream came true when I made the Galvanic deck.

You want to know the funny part? Almost everyone I talked to or showed off the deck such as family or friends, the first question is always: How much profit did you get??
My face drops everytime. Not many people can say they've accomplished one of their goals at such a young age (I'm 23 just to throw that out there), yet all anyone cares about now is the money.

I went into designing playing cards because of the passion not for the money. I've always believed in the saying "Do what you love and the money will follow". That quote proved itself with the Galvanic deck. Not a whole lot of profit but enough to get things rolling and put my foot in the door.

You shouldn't rip people off right from the beginning. These people are helping you create what's been in your head, your goal, your own personal project come to life.

That's just my two cents about over charging for Kickstarter decks.

Sean you are to this day still one of my favorite deck designers. I love the galvanic deck and there aren't many people I see with the same kind of passion and commitment as you. You got your decks out in a timely manner and even sent a personalized kickstarter message when you were shipping my decks! It's the little things like this that go a long way in my eyes. You also took the time to listen to the community and alter your design to try and make people happy. More people need to learn a thing or two from you, and to think that you're only 23 yet seem to have much better business ethics than a lot of these folks who've been in the game for longer. Kudos to you man.

About the Polarius deck, at this point I don't think I'll be pledging as the prices seem a bit high and I don't quite see the point in requiring pledges to have the wooden card included. At the end of the day it would probably just be something that sits in a drawer in my room that over time I will forget I even have. Also I'm not too crazy about the 4 different suit colors, it might just be the color choices but they have somewhat of a childish feel to them. Like I imagine the color schemes being part of a children's book about clowns....maybe that's just me though. I prefer the colors in the Lunar deck over the Solar deck if that counts for anything.

[4pmdesigner]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gol ... n=5596c216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

man I just reviewed this... after the first 100 backers.. it's $15 for the first deck, and an additional $7 for the second deck.
That's $22 for both decks for Americans (and a total of $17 for 1 deck (or $30 for 2) for outside the US)

The only way to stop these over-priced KS playing card campaigns is to not pledge for them.

I for one will not be picking these up, and I will no longer be pledging for any overpriced KS campaigns.

CBJ

It's a shame because this is a nicely done project with great artwork, and I would love to back it. But I would have to agree this CBJ here. Pedale has set an unprecedented "standard" to most kickstarters who see those price points and feel compelled to raise their prices. Many of the people here know the round about costs of a standard custom deck, so that's not really a valid argument anymore. I'm a designer, currently working on a 3rd campaign, so I understand the frustration. The real question here is, even though Davegk is correct about the pricing actually being suitable to include compensation and all the actual costs, is it really necessary? On "The Grid", the deck cost was affordable (very close to what the Vanda deck cost), I ended up eating all the domestic cost and ate up a great deal of international costs. Along with the KS/amazon percentage, deducting the correct tax amount for the IRS, and all the shipping materials coming out of my pocket as well, I was still able to make a reasonable profit. However, I don't see the profit as compensation for my time and work, I see it as a REWARD for a deck people enjoy. I'm not the only one to release a deck under $10 and make a profit. With all these new decks suddenly releasing for $15, it's easy for everyone to relay that as the creator's intent being more focused on the profit than providing a quality deck.

Unfortunately, I agree the message should be made..."WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT....NO...WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT!

[BMPokerworld]

The problem is all the additional add on stuff. Below is the description from Kickstarter:

1 deck (lunar or solar) + 1 small LIMITED EDITION wooden card + add on any additional items as shown in project description. USA shipping included.

Does anybody really want all that stuff? Most people probably just want the deck. Get rid of all the ego stroking stuff and you will sell more.


4:PM wrote: However, I don't see the profit as compensation for my time and work, I see it as a REWARD for a deck people enjoy. I'm not the only one to release a deck under $10 and make a profit. With all these new decks suddenly releasing for $15, it's easy for everyone to relay that as the creator's intent being more focused on the profit than providing a quality deck.


I said this before with the Aurum deck, You don't hire a $1,000 an hour lawyer to sue someone who owes you a $1,000. The best way to stop this is what most of the posts stated above:

DON'T BUY IT!!!!

Thanks!

[Strag]

Yup, not in.

Also, launching at 6PM PST is a slap in the face to European backers. That's at least 2AM here and makes it just about impossible to get in on the early-bird which is the only one that MIGHT be remotely affordable.

[BMPokerworld]

Has everyone received their first deck from this creator yet?

Thanks!

[Strag]

Has everyone received their first deck from this creator yet?

Thanks!

It's not scheduled (according to the KS) to be shipped until February, although an update has been posted saying the should ship end of January.

[CBJ]

Has everyone received their first deck from this creator yet?

Thanks!

I don't think they're printed yet

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gol ... gned/posts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Completed on Oct 8th.

[Oswin]

It is surprising this story, the first deck is still not delivered, while the second already pointing the tip of his nose.
When I'm the first, I will notify this to be back in the project but not before!

[Strag]

It is surprising this story, the first deck is still not delivered, while the second already pointing the tip of his nose.
When I'm the first, I will notify this to be back in the project but not before!

I don't think it's surprising, I've seen other project creators do the same thing. Again, they are so far still on schedule with the first deck.

What is surprising is the high pricing and lack of respect given to International backers. It is for those reasons I will not be backing.

[CBJ]

AND.. the Vanda deck was $10 for one (including shipping).. the new one is $15 for one (including shipping)
How can you possibly justify this, when other campaigns sell them way cheaper.

And, I think it's fishy that you are doing another campaign .. which will be completed before your other decks have to ship. I guess you'll be using funds from this KS to complete the shipping on the Vanda decks.

I'm staying FAR FAR away from this.

CBJ

[davegk]

I was actually planning to post an update today on the Vända kickstarter page...

The Vända decks are on schedule to be delivered within the timeframe specified in the project (delivery by February, 2013). I've received notification from USPC that they have completed printing and boxing of both decks and will be shipping them out to me in the next week or so, after which I will be packaging and shipping out to all backers.

As for this whole issue regarding pricing, I've shown the Polaris project to many people and the only ones who even mentioned concern over the cost are the handful who have replied on this forum. The truth is that people are clearly willing to pay $15 for a single well-designed deck of playing cards - Tyler has proven this with his Pedale project. I find it a bit humorous that despite this fact, many people here continue to rant about how nobody would pay that much for cards. I realize that some designers are charging less and honestly I think they are undervaluing their work.

You may notice that there are currently four playing card projects on kickstarter that are struggling to even meet funding goals. These decks are priced between $8-10 and still they are not getting backed - clearly the issue is not the price point. If you create something original that people want and can't get anywhere else, they will pay whatever the cost is (within reason).

Graphic designers, like any other professionals, cannot afford to work for free. I initially started designing the Vända deck because I thought it was a cool idea and a fun project to work on and I really enjoy the challenge of designing card decks, but when I brought it to kickstarter, it was with the intention of making money. This isn't just a hobby for me, it's my career. Currently, my only source of income is my freelance graphic design work and the majority of my time lately has been spent working on Vända and Polaris. So, yes, I do expect to be able to make enough money from the sales of the card decks to cover my rent and other living expenses and I think that's entirely reasonable. If I didn't truly believe in the potential success of the Polaris project, I wouldn't have invested as much time as I have.

-David

[billysac]

Soooo..... is it possible to pledge without the wooden card and get a deck a bit cheaper?

What am I supposed to do with a limited-edition wooden card that you value at $5?

[badpete69]

Wow quite the thread so far. I see it like this you don't like it you don't pledge. I personally think the price of the deck is as cheap/expensive as anyone out there. I can get 4 decks for $ 31 (early birds) or $36 normal pledge. Let's assume for example sake the normal pledge. I can get 2 decks of each (lunar and solar) for a total of $36. That is exactly the same price as getting 4 decks at $7 from Theory 11 and paying for shipping. And it is way cheaper than let's say TBC or other stores. Now obviously I am talking about pledging from US where shipping is included but along with the 4 decks I get an extra collectible gizmo (in this case a wooden card) which kind of looks cool. Bottom line we are all here to express our opinion, but I for one will be pledging this project. I probably will be also picking up the first Vanda deck from the website

Have a nice one all

[BMPokerworld]

I was actually planning to post an update today on the Vända kickstarter page...

The Vända decks are on schedule to be delivered within the timeframe specified in the project (delivery by February, 2013). I've received notification from USPC that they have completed printing and boxing of both decks and will be shipping them out to me in the next week or so, after which I will be packaging and shipping out to all backers.

As for this whole issue regarding pricing, I've shown the Polaris project to many people and the only ones who even mentioned concern over the cost are the handful who have replied on this forum. The truth is that people are clearly willing to pay $15 for a single well-designed deck of playing cards - Tyler has proven this with his Pedale project. I find it a bit humorous that despite this fact, many people here continue to rant about how nobody would pay that much for cards. I realize that some designers are charging less and honestly I think they are undervaluing their work.

You may notice that there are currently four playing card projects on kickstarter that are struggling to even meet funding goals. These decks are priced between $8-10 and still they are not getting backed - clearly the issue is not the price point. If you create something original that people want and can't get anywhere else, they will pay whatever the cost is (within reason).

Graphic designers, like any other professionals, cannot afford to work for free. I initially started designing the Vända deck because I thought it was a cool idea and a fun project to work on and I really enjoy the challenge of designing card decks, but when I brought it to kickstarter, it was with the intention of making money. This isn't just a hobby for me, it's my career. Currently, my only source of income is my freelance graphic design work and the majority of my time lately has been spent working on Vända and Polaris. So, yes, I do expect to be able to make enough money from the sales of the card decks to cover my rent and other living expenses and I think that's entirely reasonable. If I didn't truly believe in the potential success of the Polaris project, I wouldn't have invested as much time as I have.

-David

I don't think anyone has a problem with a designer making money, I think everyone just gets tired of all the BS about the costs associated with making a deck. As 4:PM has said, everyone here knows roughly how much USPCC charges to produce a custom deck, so it is better to take the approach you have with your above post, rather than your first one.

When someone states it has taken them months and months to complete the design work, it comes across as a bit disingenuous. Why I agree a designer may work on a deck over many months, they are not spending 8 hours a day, five days a week, for months and months. They are doing it a little at a time. So the impression they are giving creates a lot of skepticism among their potential customers. So as you can see, it is much better to use your second explanation as oppose to your first, which can be easily refuted.

As far as the pricing is concerned, while it is true the amazing success the pedale deck has had shows it is possible that a deck may sell at that price point, it has equally been shown that people are not willing to pay that price all the time. The Aurum deck is a perfect example. Paul has priced that deck at a high price point and sales have been slow. How do I know? Because he is on the forum every chance he gets trying to promote it and sell it. Will they eventually sell? Sure, but not quickly. You have to ask yourself; "Do you want fast nickels or slow dollars"? Paul is not the only one who's second decks have not done as well as the first. The verve and Ogma have not done well and there is still ample supply left of both.

To me the major sticking point is that you are asking for more money when you still have not delivered your first deck yet, especially since you just admitted you do not have a steady job and are just working freelance right now. How does anyone know what you say is true and that you don't need the money from the second deck to have the first one produced? You would have had a lot more credibility if you delivered the first deck and didn't ask for funding on the second deck, until the first one was already in your hands and starting to be shipped out.

Just food for thought.

Thanks!

[alric]

If you create something original that people want and can't get anywhere else, they will pay whatever the cost is (within reason).

-David

I don't know that you can use the Pedale deck as proof that people are now willing to pay $15 per deck. For whatever reason, that deck went "viral" and had unprecedented success. But just because one deck did that, I don't think you can extrapolate that data and say other decks will have the same success. Its almost a disservice that the Pedale project got the success it did because it sets unrealistic expectations for other deck designers that think they will have the same results.

At the end of the day, you set the value for your own work and all you can do is see if others feel the same way. If you get funded, congrats and you get the last laugh. If you fail to get funded, then maybe you will need to re-evaluate your price points. Personaly, I think $15 per deck for any KickStarter deck is too much, but you're selling additional decks at the more reasonable $7 price point. With the way you tiered your pledges, people who only wish to get 1-2 decks will probably not pledge, but as badpete69 mentioned earlier, if you buy 4+ decks, then the pricing becomes comparable to other custom decks (for US pledgers anyway). I'll be curious to see how this all shakes out......

[davegk]

I was actually planning to post an update today on the Vända kickstarter page...

The Vända decks are on schedule to be delivered within the timeframe specified in the project (delivery by February, 2013). I've received notification from USPC that they have completed printing and boxing of both decks and will be shipping them out to me in the next week or so, after which I will be packaging and shipping out to all backers.

As for this whole issue regarding pricing, I've shown the Polaris project to many people and the only ones who even mentioned concern over the cost are the handful who have replied on this forum. The truth is that people are clearly willing to pay $15 for a single well-designed deck of playing cards - Tyler has proven this with his Pedale project. I find it a bit humorous that despite this fact, many people here continue to rant about how nobody would pay that much for cards. I realize that some designers are charging less and honestly I think they are undervaluing their work.

You may notice that there are currently four playing card projects on kickstarter that are struggling to even meet funding goals. These decks are priced between $8-10 and still they are not getting backed - clearly the issue is not the price point. If you create something original that people want and can't get anywhere else, they will pay whatever the cost is (within reason).

Graphic designers, like any other professionals, cannot afford to work for free. I initially started designing the Vända deck because I thought it was a cool idea and a fun project to work on and I really enjoy the challenge of designing card decks, but when I brought it to kickstarter, it was with the intention of making money. This isn't just a hobby for me, it's my career. Currently, my only source of income is my freelance graphic design work and the majority of my time lately has been spent working on Vända and Polaris. So, yes, I do expect to be able to make enough money from the sales of the card decks to cover my rent and other living expenses and I think that's entirely reasonable. If I didn't truly believe in the potential success of the Polaris project, I wouldn't have invested as much time as I have.

-David

I don't think anyone has a problem with a designer making money, I think everyone just gets tired of all the BS about the costs associated with making a deck. As 4:PM has said, everyone here knows roughly how much USPCC charges to produce a custom deck, so it is better to take the approach you have with your above post, rather than your first one.

When someone states it has taken them months and months to complete the design work, it comes across as a bit disingenuous. Why I agree a designer may work on a deck over many months, they are not spending 8 hours a day, five days a week, for months and months. They are doing it a little at a time. So the impression they are giving creates a lot of skepticism among their potential customers. It is much better to use your second explanation as oppose to your first, which can be easily refuted.

As far as the pricing is concerned, while it is true the amazing success the pedale deck has had shows it is possible that a deck may sell at that price point, it has equally been shown that people are not willing to pay that price all the time. The Aurum deck is a perfect example. Paul has priced that deck at a high price point and sales have been slow. How do I know? Because he is on the forum every chance he gets trying to promote it and sell it. Will they eventually sell? Sure, but not quickly. You have to ask yourself; "Do you want fast nickels or slow dollars"? Paul is not the only one who's second decks have not done as well as the first. The verve and Ogma have not done well and there is still ample supply left of both.

To me the major sticking point is that you are asking for more money when you still have not delivered your first deck yet, especially since you just admitted you do not have a steady job and are just working freelance right now. How does anyone know what you say is true and that you don't need the money from the second deck to have the first one produced? You would have had a lot more credibility if you delivered the first deck and didn't ask for funding on the second deck, until the first one was already in your hands and starting to be shipped out.

Just food for thought.

Thanks!

First of all, i don't think most people are actually aware of how much it ends up costing to produce each deck once you include all the factors involved. You can't just take the per deck printing price from USPC as the cost to produce it.

As for time spent on design, I estimate I spent roughly 300 actual hours of work on the Vända deck designs. Every element was created from scratch and fine-tuned many many times. I didn't just slap some new color scheme on a design that was already created by someone else. The Polaris deck was even more time-consuming of a process. Yes, I have been working about 40 hours a week designing the decks and related accessories. I've literally been working 12+ hours a day, six to seven days a week since june to accommodate the playing cards as well as other projects - it's not just a few minutes or even a few hours each day - anyone with an eye for design will appreciate the extensive details involved.

Regarding the timeline, I was hoping to have the Vända decks delivered *ahead* of schedule but I've been waiting for USPC to finish the printing process. I've actually delayed the launch of Polaris specifically because of the concern you mentioned - that the projects would be overlapping between fulfillment of Vända and the KS campaign of Polaris, but I can't sit around and wait any longer. I have more projects to get to and I must keep moving forward in order to meet my own timeline goals.

I understand that some of you have concern over the cost of backing for just a single deck of Polaris cards and if you feel it's unreasonable then don't back the project, but I don't understand why there's so much negativity and attempted persuasion to convince other people to follow suit.

-David