Playing Cards and Foiling History

[Mike Ratledge]

Just to clear up things, the tucks were handmade and foiled, but the decks were made on the old familiar Heidelberg "Speedmaster" model, as are custom decks by USPCC. Mass produced decks at USPCC are done on a WebPress, made in France. Those spit out up to a million decks per 24 hour period. There's a reason for the registration and alignment drift, it's a roll-fed press as opposed to sheet fed.

Lotrek was supervising the process step by step, but I think I have my facts straight. Lotrek, jump in here is I stubbed my toe (again).

[JacksonRobinson]

I'm not trying to take away anything Lortek did- in fact that can't be done. He was the FIRST to do it EVER! And there's something to be said about that. What I'm curious about is if the EPCC can do this now, what does that mean?

Not knocking Lotrek deck at all as I think the courts are awesome, but what are you referring to when you say "He was the FIRST to do it EVER!" If you are talking about full foil on the back or front of a card, then that is grossly inaccurate. I have multiple decks on my shelf as we speak that have full bleed foil, off the side of the card front and back. They were also done in the last 5 years not 100 years ago. Which they were doing foil then to. The big upside with what CARC is doing is that this approach creates foiled decks on a mass produced scale that the foil is under the finish and the cards handle like normal playing cards.

[Eoghann]

What about those 14K Gold cards they sell on Amazon? They're golden all around from what I can see.
I don't own a set but what's the difference between that, Lotrek's and CARC's for instance? I'm strictly speaking about the shiny stuff, not about performance or artistic taste.

[JacksonRobinson]

What about those 14K Gold cards they sell on Amazon? They're golden all around from what I can see.
I don't own a set but what's the difference between that, Lotrek's and CARC's for instance? I'm strictly speaking about the shiny stuff, not about performance or artistic taste.

Not much at all really if you take out the finish and handling aspect. Foil on cards is a practice very old, whether or not you call in vintage or modern era. Take a look at some of the beautiful foil etched playing cards, you have incredibly detailed designs and there is absolutely no part of the card that is not cover in foil, and you can find those pretty easily for around $20.

I'm excluding those $100 bill cards you can find on ebay with your eyes closed, those make me have a stomach ache... but hey thats foil, even hot stamped foil to say the least.

[Lotrek]

A fully foiled back has nothing to do with a foiled spot on a black background. Registration is very demanding when your design covers the whole back side.I don't know how EPCC are doing their foiled decks but mine are almost hand made. I don't want to go into much detail about how I make my decks because after V. Gold I've developed a technique that is very costly but it ensures a perfect registration, even under a magnifying glass. This will be more evident in ICONS, where registration HAS to be perfect as I'm combining two foils. Imagine what will happen if these are not perfectly aligned.The very low numbers in production are not a result of decision (creating an artificial rarity) but a physical limit due to the huge amount of my personal work needed. I'm personally supervising printing and foiling, with the latter needing close inspection of each sheet, rejecting and sending to the waste bin a lot of foiled sheets. And this is the easy part. The difficult work is afterwards but I don't wish to reveal more at this point.
My foiled decks are like the "Signature Edition" decks, with the difference that they require much much more work.

As for handling, I'll agree with sinjin. Foil affects handling in a negative way. ICONS will handle much better that V. Gold but still, it won't be a deck for flourishing or tricks. Its purpose is different after all.
EPCC is a very active company and they're doing great work on the technical side. I'm sure that as they're more focused on this aspect, they'll find a way to diminish or eliminate this problem. My focus is different. I'm aiming to the pleasure of the eye and -judging by many backers' comments- to the pleasure of the heart as well.

[JacksonRobinson]

A fully foiled back has nothing to do with a foiled spot on a black background. Registration is very demanding when your design covers the whole back side.I don't know how EPCC are doing their foiled decks but mine are almost hand made. I don't want to go into much detail about how I make my decks because after V. Gold I've developed a technique that is very costly but it ensures a perfect registration, even under a magnifying glass. This will be more evident in ICONS, where registration HAS to be perfect as I'm combining two foils. Imagine what will happen if these are not perfectly aligned.The very low numbers in production are not a result of decision (creating an artificial rarity) but a physical limit due to the huge amount of my personal work needed. I'm personally supervising printing and foiling, with the latter needing close inspection of each sheet, rejecting and sending to the waste bin a lot of foiled sheets. And this is the easy part. The difficult work is afterwards but I don't wish to reveal more at this point.
My foiled decks are like the "Signature Edition" decks, with the difference that they require much much more work.

As for handling, I'll agree with sinjin. Foil affects handling in a negative way. ICONS will handle much better that V. Gold but still, it won't be a deck for flourishing or tricks. Its purpose is different after all.
EPCC is a very active company and they're doing great work on the technical side. I'm sure that as they're more focused on this aspect, they'll find a way to diminish or eliminate this problem. My focus is different. I'm aiming to the pleasure of the eye and -judging by many backers' comments- to the pleasure of the heart as well.

I totally agree with you that full foil and spot foil are very different. The craftsmanship of the Vs is incredible, but that still doesn't alter the fact that both full and spot foil with accurate registration even with multiple colors of foil is something that has been present in playing cards for years.

[sprouts1115]

full bleed foil, off the side of the card front and back. They were also done in the last 5 years not 100 years ago. Which they were doing foil then to. The big upside with what CARC is doing is that this approach creates foiled decks on a mass produced scale that the foil is under the finish and the cards handle like normal playing cards.

When you say, "full bleed foil" If that is not card porn I don't know what is. So the foil is under the finish.

Screenshot 2015-02-06 17.21.18.png (245.69 KiB) Viewed 3278 times

Makes me think of the pressure point for making fans. This is the stuff I like. New and interesting things. Glad you're back. Seems like if your going to foil the deck front or back you might as well foil the tuck. Make it a standard. At least one element if you not your logo. If your going minimal foil at least your logo. UV it if you want to get weird. My cards cost this much? I got all the Bells and whistles.

[Eoghann]

I'd love to know more about this subject which started in the Zen thread. http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php ... 913#p77913" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopefully the guys can bring that conversation here.

[Mike Ratledge]

Well this just got more interesting.

Pass the mega popcorn, I have a small bag I just popped in the microwave.

[Mike Ratledge]

Mike posted this deck last year: http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=6742.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Old school gold look, that's why it smeared when they were handled. True metallic inks don't smear unless mishandled before, during or after being hot stamped.

Remember these? Dondorf #1000 made it 1933. The " Metallic" ink rubbed off. It still looks gold.

[Lotrek]

@Jackson:

Before I decide to produce Venexiana Gold in my own, I asked USPCC how much would that cost me (Back then, EPCC hadn't yet built its reputation and I didn't even know the company existed). USPCC replied that gold foil on card backs cannot be done. This is the only reason I decided to produce it myself. I get pissed off by the phrase "it cannot be done". I try to translate it to "It cannot be done easily". However, I didn't rest on USPCC's answer, I contacted collectors and asked about that, mostly out of curiosity. The search in the internet gave zero results apart from this hoax with the 24K gold decks for $5.
So I think I was entitled to claim that this was an industry first. The same did Bill Kalush with the Exquisite Bold which by mere coincidence was announced as a milestone in playing card industry a few days before my V. Gold. I still wonder why didn't this claim was confronted by collectors since gold foil back decks are in such abundance as you say.
And I also wonder why didn't you object during the 52 plus joker convention, when your "Fifty two plus Joker" deck was presented as the first deck having extensive foil on the backs. Which was grossly inaccurate, since my V. Gold was released a few months before, and the rest of the foiled decks you're referring to are so common that they can be found for $20.
Of course it is possible that you had already done foiled backs for 5 of your Fed52 decks but how could I know that since these 5 decks are hidden from the world's eye and only you and your family know about them?

[sprouts1115]

Oh, That sounds like a Triple Dog Dare!!! Or maybe he could bring one to the next 52 Plus Joker Convention for family to see cos when you join the club you become part of a family...

[Marcus]

So I think I was entitled to claim that this was an industry first. The same did Bill Kalush with the Exquisite Bold which by mere coincidence was announced as a milestone in playing card industry a few days before my V. Gold. I still wonder why didn't this claim was confronted by collectors since gold foil back decks are in such abundance as you say.
And I also wonder why didn't you object during the 52 plus joker convention, when your "Fifty two plus Joker" deck was presented as the first deck having extensive foil on the backs. Which was grossly inaccurate, since my V. Gold was released a few months before, and the rest of the foiled decks you're referring to are so common that they can be found for $20.
Of course it is possible that you had already done foiled backs for 5 of your Fed52 decks but how could I know that since these 5 decks are hidden from the world's eye and only you and your family know about them?

I'll start off by saying that I'm for sure no expert on the area of foiled decks, but I went back and read through what I could find about the 52 plus Joker decks (and watched the presentation at the convention), and I couldn't find any reference to them being called the first to have extensive foil on the backs? In fact in the presentation both Bill and JR mention the rich history of cards and what has been done before a few times.

And the Exquisite Bold does indeed have "a milestone in printing by incorporating foil directly on the playing card" in its ad copy at EPCC's site, but that could be read in many different ways as they don't flat out say that it was the first one. They might as well mean that it was a breakthrough in how well the results came out with how they handle, how it stays on or whatever else.

Either way, both the Venexiana Gold and the Icons decks as well as the EPCC decks have their own merits - one side showing the handmade process (and I'm a sucker for handmade stuff I'll admit) albeit perhaps not with the best handling capabilities as a result, the other showing what can be done with modern card printing on a larger scale.

The two (three) shouldn't even be compared as they are two separate roads being taken. Different processes, different results, different goals.

(Maybe one of the mods should move all these posts into that empty thread about foils so the discussion can continue there instead. )

[nECr0MaNCeD]

I'd love to know more about this subject which started in the Zen thread. http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php ... 913#p77913" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Hopefully the guys can bring that conversation here.

I'll second that. I still have so much to learn and who better to teach than the two principals from the other thread?

[Lotrek]

I watched the video again very carefully and I have to admit that I was mistaken. Although the whole presentation the first time I watched gave me the impression that 52 plus Joker is a novelty regarding the foil on the back, nowhere is stated that it's the first deck with that feature. So I have to apologize to Jackson for my somewhat aggressive statement
Fact remains that USPCC told me "it cannot be done", EPCC said "it cannot be done" and avid collectors I asked, had no idea about foiled back decks. I logically jumped to the conclusion that such decks don't exist.

I'm not the person who likes going into a battle just for the fun of it, in fact I don't like battles at all, so the main point here is if hot stamped foiled back decks existed in the past. If yes, I'd like to know which are these decks. Name, producer, year of production.
And of course I'd like to have some links to those foiled back decks sold for $20. Definitely interested in buying some.

[JacksonRobinson]

@Jackson:

Before I decide to produce Venexiana Gold in my own, I asked USPCC how much would that cost me (Back then, EPCC hadn't yet built its reputation and I didn't even know the company existed). USPCC replied that gold foil on card backs cannot be done. This is the only reason I decided to produce it myself. I get pissed off by the phrase "it cannot be done". I try to translate it to "It cannot be done easily". However, I didn't rest on USPCC's answer, I contacted collectors and asked about that, mostly out of curiosity. The search in the internet gave zero results apart from this hoax with the 24K gold decks for $5.
So I think I was entitled to claim that this was an industry first. The same did Bill Kalush with the Exquisite Bold which by mere coincidence was announced as a milestone in playing card industry a few days before my V. Gold. I still wonder why didn't this claim was confronted by collectors since gold foil back decks are in such abundance as you say.
And I also wonder why didn't you object during the 52 plus joker convention, when your "Fifty two plus Joker" deck was presented as the first deck having extensive foil on the backs. Which was grossly inaccurate, since my V. Gold was released a few months before, and the rest of the foiled decks you're referring to are so common that they can be found for $20.
Of course it is possible that you had already done foiled backs for 5 of your Fed52 decks but how could I know that since these 5 decks are hidden from the world's eye and only you and your family know about them?

Like I said before, I only speak from my own experience. As for the release of the the two club decks I never promoted them as "Industry Firsts" you may go watch that actual presentation the Bill and I gave and we verbally tip our hats to our predecessors. It also should be noted that even on your Kickstarter page that you include the phrasing "The first of it's kind in the modern era" While that phrase is very true due to the fact that modern technology has slowly pushed the very expensive process of foiling to the incredible detail that your decks have to a level where companies like USPCC say "It can't be done". I also hate the phrase "It can't be done" but that doesn't mean it is true. When you break foiling down it is a process that has been done for ages. I can go out right now and get business cards beautifully foiled with 10 different color foils. Who is to say I couldn't make those business cards playing card size and print 52 of them and put them in a box and viola, I have a foiled deck of playing cards. The handling may be awful but that just like art is subjective and up to the collector/buyer to choose. A beautifully hand made illuminated playing card set from the 16th century is no less a deck of playing cards than the refined handling deck of today. I'm going to bow out of this one as it isn't really going anywhere, but I would only ask the caution should be used from the creators of field (myself included) from using terms like "first ever" when they promote there work, merely form the educational stand point for new collectors and those that may not have the years of experience as most of us here have.

[Lotrek]

Like I said before, I only speak from my own experience. As for the release of the the two club decks I never promoted them as "Industry Firsts" you may go watch that actual presentation the Bill and I gave and we verbally tip our hats to our predecessors.

You're right and I've already commented on that in my previous message.

However I don't agree that this thread does not lead anywhere. It leads to the collective education of creators and new collectors alike. "Debates" like that don't necessarily end with a "winner" and a "looser". I don't try to prove that my deck was the first ever with foil on each card (although I thought so). If other decks existed I'd like to know some of them.

[Marcus]

Glad we could clear things up a bit. Now let's get back to foiling cards for me!

[JacksonRobinson]

Like I said before, I only speak from my own experience. As for the release of the the two club decks I never promoted them as "Industry Firsts" you may go watch that actual presentation the Bill and I gave and we verbally tip our hats to our predecessors.

You're right and I've already commented on that in my previous message.

However I don't agree that this thread does not lead anywhere. It leads to the collective education of creators and new collectors alike. "Debates" like that don't necessarily end with a "winner" and a "looser". I don't try to prove that my deck was the first ever with foil on each card (although I thought so). If other decks existed I'd like to know some of them.

Totally, I had started my response before you had posted yours. The education factor is the main reason I brought it up in the first place. I personally think the Icons and the Vs were monumental in terms of playing card history just from the fact of how top notch they were in both design and execution.

[JacksonRobinson]

@lortek

Only if we could float paint like they do with the original icon board painting, that would be something for sure.

[Sher]

so the main point here is if hot stamped foiled back decks existed in the past. If yes, I'd like to know which are these decks. Name, producer, year of production.
And of course I'd like to have some links to those foiled back decks sold for $20. Definitely interested in buying some.

I'd like to know the answer to this, too. Actually - FULLY foiled, not just foiled. Since CARC had foiled, but not FULLY foiled, right? And if they did exist, and if it's a USPCC deck, why did USPCC say it cannot be done? That could mean the following things:

1) They've actually never been able to do it before (thus the decks in question are not actually foiled, though they seem to be)
2) They've done it before but lost the ability to do so

If it's not a USPCC deck, then it would really help to know the producer. This is specifically for playing cards, correct? There was a mention of business cards, or cards used in other games, but I'd like to know specifically for playing cards.

[Lotrek]

@lortek

Only if we could float paint like they do with the original icon board painting, that would be something for sure.

Well, no Hulk Hogan Vs Ultimate Warrior today, guys. Pity, that popcorn Eoghann brought seemed tasty!

[Lotrek]

so the main point here is if hot stamped foiled back decks existed in the past. If yes, I'd like to know which are these decks. Name, producer, year of production.
And of course I'd like to have some links to those foiled back decks sold for $20. Definitely interested in buying some.

I'd like to know the answer to this, too. Actually - FULLY foiled, not just foiled. Since CARC had foiled, but not FULLY foiled, right? And if they did exist, and if it's a USPCC deck, why did USPCC say it cannot be done? That could mean the following things:

1) They've actually never been able to do it before (thus the decks in question are not actually foiled, though they seem to be)
2) They've done it before but lost the ability to do so

If it's not a USPCC deck, then it would really help to know the producer. This is specifically for playing cards, correct? There was a mention of business cards, or cards used in other games, but I'd like to know specifically for playing cards.

I second that.

[JacksonRobinson]

so the main point here is if hot stamped foiled back decks existed in the past. If yes, I'd like to know which are these decks. Name, producer, year of production.
And of course I'd like to have some links to those foiled back decks sold for $20. Definitely interested in buying some.

I'd like to know the answer to this, too. Actually - FULLY foiled, not just foiled. Since CARC had foiled, but not FULLY foiled, right? And if they did exist, and if it's a USPCC deck, why did USPCC say it cannot be done? That could mean the following things:

1) They've actually never been able to do it before (thus the decks in question are not actually foiled, though they seem to be)
2) They've done it before but lost the ability to do so

If it's not a USPCC deck, then it would really help to know the producer. This is specifically for playing cards, correct? There was a mention of business cards, or cards used in other games, but I'd like to know specifically for playing cards.

To me the real question is not if USPCC has or hasn't because USPCC is only one manufacturer in a sea of manufacturers. I think it is also notable that foiling just like all printing process is simply that. USPCC and others have lost many processes that we all find more favorable. The fashion in which the Nuggets were finished is a great example. They will also tell that, that process also "can't be done" only because they lack the equipment and expertise that they once had to do it. I only mentioned business cards to make a point that anyone can print 52 foiled cards and put it into a box and call it playing card deck. I'm not saying that is what Lotrek is doing cause it that couldn't be further from the truth. I think what Lotrek is doing is absolutely and 100% pushing the industry forward.

[sinjin7]

I used to own a deck of cards several years back where the back was completely foiled. The back design appeared to be etched into the foiling. The deck also had gilded edges. I don't know who made the deck, but it wasn't the USPCC. Since I open and use most of my decks, I used this deck for a couple rounds of poker and the foiling on the back didn't hold up too well after being bent and shuffled for an extended period of time. I ended up tossing the deck after poker (the deck was under $10 on eBay, and I don't like bridge sized cards anyways). So yes, apparently someone had made foiled backs, it just wasn't the USPCC.

As for Lotrek's deck being advertised as an industry first, I just assumed he and Mike were taking some promotional liberties while hyping up the deck. I mean, everyone (especially T11 & D&D) does it these days, so it didn't faze me one bit. I don't get caught up anymore with any verbiage associated with any deck, I just look past that stuff and try to appreciate the deck based upon its own merits instead of the hype. Some decks live up to the hype, some don't.

Just the other day, I noticed some of my nephews playing with Pokémon cards and Magic the Gathering cards. I have to say, some of them were beautiful with full color artwork and extensive use of regular foil and holographic foil. These things are mass produced at not too high of a price. I don't know why someone doesn't go to whoever manufactures these cards and ask for them to print playing card decks with full color and foiling. Sure, it'll handle like crap, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to matter for collectors, they'll be too busy falling over themselves looking at the eye candy.

[Eoghann]

Really, can't thank you guys enough for keeping the conversation going.

So what I gather from all this is:

USPCC at some point in their history was able to produce full bleed foil playing cards. But like Jerry's Nuggets, due to modernization, cost effectiveness of many other factors, lost the ability to do so. So when Lotrek approached them, asking for full bleed foil, they said "it can't done". I guess they should have phrased that properly and said "we don't do that anymore for so and so reason. At least not to a satisfactory level".

I'm not going to ask Jackson to go fan those vintage decks [MURRAY] , but I think I can assume that at some point, despite the full foil back..those decks were up to USPCC standard.

Lotrek without a doubt has brought full foil back into the limelight of the playing card world. While it would seem that technically he isn't the first to print foiled decks in modern times, I have to say his project has enticed bigger companies to take interest in bringing this beautiful technique back and mass producing it. At least from my perspective as a new collector.

I know we try to steer away from religion for many reasons on the forum, but I'd like to add a quote my dad has ingrained in my head all my life:

"Ecclesiastes 1:9: What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." He usually just says the last portion but you get the idea.

I've experienced this in a very teeny tiny scale. Let's say I find a new deck and I'm very happy to show it to you guys. I come here, eyes twinkling and show it. Many new collectors are like "wow! Where'd you find that?!"....veteran collectors be like "I've had that deck since 1992, young man".

[Lotrek]

I don't like "promotional liberties" as I think they show little faith to the product itself. When I advertised Venexiana Gold as an "industry first" I really thought it was such. And unless I see a similar deck (like Jackson's 52 plus Joker deck) I'll continue to believe so.
The hot stamped foiling work I did should not be confused with foil applied all over the card and then printed on. This is easy and cheap as it's not really hot stamped foil but a silver coating which is then printed on, acquiring any color or shine degree you wish. But even if it is hot stamped foil, covering the whole card from edge to edge and then printed, makes it a game as it needs no registration for the foil itself (which is the difficult part) but for the printed elements which is the easiest thing in the printing industry.

[vasta41]

Glad we could clear things up a bit. Now let's get back to foiling cards for me!

[Widdee]

I am a proud owner of a Gold V but I'd be real surprised if it was the first foiled back deck of playing cards given that the letterpress printing technique which is very similar to foil stamping has been around for eons.

This is a great conversation and I'm a huge fan of both Lotrek and Jackson.

[tdubben]

This is a great conversation and I'm a huge fan of both Lotrek and Jackson.

+1
I don't think this could be said enough.