USPC vs EPCC vs MPC vs et al

[Godzillian]

I think it's time we have a thread focusing on the pros and cons of these different printing companies. I've seen too many threads derail due to the old EPCC vs USPC discussion. All that I can say is, you'd have to get the latest USPC and latest EPCC to actually compare. When I say EPCC and USPC decks, I'm using their latest productions like the NOC V3s and the XCM Passions.

I think I'll start off the argument here. I greatly prefer EPCC over USPC. Why? Simply because they last longer, in both terms of finish and handling. I can use an EPCC deck for months before they wear out to a degree where I can't even do a top push-off. On the other hand, I use a USPC deck for a week and they dieeee. What's up with that?

In terms of finish, I like USPC because they are great out of the box. EPCC decks require a little more break-in, but not too much more than breaking in a USPC deck. Handling-wise, EPCC hands-down for cardistry. Packets hold together during aerials and cuts, but they still remain fannable. USPC decks are okay for cardistry, but often the cards are too slippery for me. This might be due to my inadequacy though.

I firmly believe magicians prefer USPC, simply because of the finish. EPCC decks tend to stick together (fanning does drag a little bit but not enough to notice a big difference), especially out of the box. On the other hand, if a magician needs to use a new deck, a USPC deck seems to be the safest because they're smooth and instantly fannable. Imagine an expert magician attempting to fan a new EPCC deck in front of an audience, and it mildly clumps in the middle!
Source: I have a few magician friends that prefer USPC decks over EPCC for sleight of hand.

In any case, it's up to your opinion if you prefer EPCC and USPC. My perspective is from a newbie cardist / card trickster (I hate the term magician), so there you have it. Hope this thread generates much discussion.

[Mike Ratledge]

Excellent, but since I am neither a cardist nor a magician, I have to defer those handling aspects and XCM to the pros, BUT - MPC decks made in the last six weeks are awesome, right out of the box! Speaking strictly as a game player, they handle like a dream. Shuffle like another dream and deal like slinging torpedoes. They are THAT accurate and manipulation for a rank amateur card handler are so good that they just have to be perfectly suited for Cardists & Magicians. I don't see it as possible that anyone who actually has one of their decks made since June 10th when they changed their 310gsm French casino stock to the same ArjoWiggins paper stock I believe is used by Expert ("master" stock & finish) and Legends ("Diamond" tock & finish).

The Expert PCC & Legends PCC decks are just slightly more slippery out of the box. A good thing (I am comparing Gnostic and NOC v3 as well as the two MPC decks that were printed last week for the CL opening give away, the absolute latest from each of the three). I also have decks here like Independence, Seven Seas, Captain's deck, 4pm Legends of all colors which includes the Black Legends made by Apollo PCC of Arlington Texas. It's a division of Gambler's Warehouse and the latest production as well.

So, a newcomer never seen before produced a deck that in my amateur opinion meets or exceeds anything made until two months ago when all three makers announced upgraded paper stock, Expert & Legends actually about five months, now.

The bottom line: we are all going to get pickier and pickier, because every one of these is hands down better than anything available six months ago.

[Mirror]

I think I'll start off the argument here. I greatly prefer EPCC over USPC. Why? Simply because they last longer, in both terms of finish and handling. I can use an EPCC deck for months before they wear out to a degree where I can't even do a top push-off. On the other hand, I use a USPC deck for a week and they dieeee. What's up with that?

While I'll have to get some EPCC decks before I can really participate in this discussion, I have a tip for you about how decks last longer: Wash your hands! I've noticed a lot of people seem to complain about decks not holding up for a long time. I know that especially card flourishing pushes a deck to its limits but I have a lot of decks that I've been using for more than a year now (I really got into cardistry around autumn 2012, I don't count the decks I had before that, even though a lot of those are still in great shape) and they all of them are still perfectly usable. Whenever I read something like "My decks only last one or two weeks" I ask myself: "What. The. Hell. ... are you guys doing to your decks?!"

[MagikFingerz]

I think I'll start off the argument here. I greatly prefer EPCC over USPC. Why? Simply because they last longer, in both terms of finish and handling. I can use an EPCC deck for months before they wear out to a degree where I can't even do a top push-off. On the other hand, I use a USPC deck for a week and they dieeee. What's up with that?

You speak as if the USPCC only has 1 stock/finish combo. I doubt the deck you "used for a week" wasn't the XCM Passions you mentioned in your opening paragraph, or was it?

I'd also like to throw in the Ohio-printed USPCC decks in the mix, not because they are still available (although to a certain degree they might, I haven't checked in a while) but just to have another reference point. Those were, IMO, the pinnacle of printing.

[Godzillian]

Excellent, but since I am neither a cardist nor a magician, I have to defer those handling aspects and XCM to the pros, BUT - MPC decks made in the last six weeks are awesome, right out of the box! Speaking strictly as a game player, they handle like a dream. Shuffle like another dream and deal like slinging torpedoes. They are THAT accurate and manipulation for a rank amateur card handler are so good that they just have to be perfectly suited for Cardists & Magicians. I don't see it as possible that anyone who actually has one of their decks made since June 10th when they changed their 310gsm French casino stock to the same ArjoWiggins paper stock I believe is used by Expert ("master" stock & finish) and Legends ("Diamond" tock & finish).

The Expert PCC & Legends PCC decks are just slightly more slippery out of the box. A good thing (I am comparing Gnostic and NOC v3 as well as the two MPC decks that were printed last week for the CL opening give away, the absolute latest from each of the three). I also have decks here like Independence, Seven Seas, Captain's deck, 4pm Legends of all colors which includes the Black Legends made by Apollo PCC of Arlington Texas. It's a division of Gambler's Warehouse and the latest production as well.

So, a newcomer never seen before produced a deck that in my amateur opinion meets or exceeds anything made until two months ago when all three makers announced upgraded paper stock, Expert & Legends actually about five months, now.

The bottom line: we are all going to get pickier and pickier, because every one of these is hands down better than anything available six months ago.

As someone who has handled the Gnostics and NOC V3s, which one feels better? I understand you're not a cardist but from a regular player's POV, but it helps nonetheless. Also, what MPC deck would you recommend I start off with? I don't have any MPC decks because I'm afraid I've been too spoiled by EPCC and USPC haha.

I think I'll start off the argument here. I greatly prefer EPCC over USPC. Why? Simply because they last longer, in both terms of finish and handling. I can use an EPCC deck for months before they wear out to a degree where I can't even do a top push-off. On the other hand, I use a USPC deck for a week and they dieeee. What's up with that?

You speak as if the USPCC only has 1 stock/finish combo. I doubt the deck you "used for a week" wasn't the XCM Passions you mentioned in your opening paragraph, or was it?

I'd also like to throw in the Ohio-printed USPCC decks in the mix, not because they are still available (although to a certain degree they might, I haven't checked in a while) but just to have another reference point. Those were, IMO, the pinnacle of printing.

You are correct. They were in fact the Virtuoso Spring/Summer edition. After 2 days they started clumping massively and they're impossible to fan. They also started to feel "cheap" in a way I can't really describe, but say that they felt flimsy after medium usage.

I would also agree that the Ohio-printed decks were as you say, the pinnacle of printing. My god those are fantastic. Anyone who says that there's no difference between Kentucky and Ohio decks are clearly out of their minds

If the USPC decks these days had Ohio quality, I would say that they're comparable to EPCC.

[Mike Ratledge]

The NOC v3 and Gnostic decks are identical. If you were blindfolded, you could not tell the difference between them, the latest MPC decks or the latest paper stock used for USPCC custom decks. The MPC 001 decks were the first to use their new stock, and actually they changed to a better French casino 310gsm linen from ArjoWiggins, as I noted. MPC 001 used the same brand paper stock, but it was 300gsm,prertt sure. The decks for CL are both made using the same French black core casino quality 310gsm with linen finish. They also have a paper from the same vendor that is 300gsm smooth finish. I don't have one of those.

[DelMagic]

Based on their own description on their website, it seems as if the both the special deck and the regular deck are identical.

Here is how MPC describes their MPC Special Red Edition deck:

310gsm casino grade German card stock
Super slippery finish
Linen finish with air pockets and contains a black core centre layer
Red borderless back
Box cellowrapped

Description:

The MPC special red edition playing cards was especially designed to celebrate the launch of the MPC brand of cards which includes red themed court cards and contains a borderless red back pattern.


Here is how MPC describes their MPC Casino Grade Cards with Red Back:

310gsm casino grade German card stock
Super slippery finish
Linen finish with air pockets and contains a black core centre layer
Red borderless back
Box cellowrapped

Description:

The MPC standard casino grade playing cards deck is the first deck to be added into the MPC cards range which is given the number 1. This deck uses Premium German card stock with a black core layer. Very slippery for great handling plus a unique MPC designed card front. Contains a red borderless back. Blue back available too.

[sinjin7]

Here are my observations about USPCC decks versus EPCC. I won't discuss MPC because they are insignificant in terms of volume at this point, despite how much certain people want to talk them up.

CARD STOCK

USPCC has two basic stocks, standard and casino grade Bee. Other stocks are available if you're willing to pay a premium. The standard stock (AKA Rider Back stock, Aristocrat stock) is rather on the soft side, especially when compared to what it used to be in Ohio. Recent improvements to the standard stock include making them thinner, yet a bit stiffer. Casino grade Bee stock is thick, stiff, and durable. This is USPCC's premium stock reserved for high end casino's that have massive contracts with the USPCC, as well as custom deck producers who are willing to pay the premium to upgrade to casino grade Bee stock.

EPCC stock seems to have evolved in recent months as well, but for me, there is basically the stock used for Global Titans, which was a big disappointment for me, and all the rest (Exquisite, Legends, etc) that feel the same to me. The EPCC stock (except for Global Titans) is nice and stiff, with great snap and spring. The stock is a bit thicker than USPCC standard but thinner than casino grade Bee, and that is how I would rank order my preference for the stocks as well.

FINISH

USPCC has Air-Cushion finish and Magic/Performance finish. For all intents and purposes, they are identical and almost indistinguishable from each other. The Magic finish may be a tiny bit more slippery and spread/fan a tiny bit more evenly, but I feel that is more due to the fact that decks produced with Magic/Performance finish have a higher degree of quality control than decks that have Air-Cushion finish. All USPCC decks will fan great right out of the box without any need to break them in. If anything, they're so slick you may have to use fanning powder to get the right degree of control, depending on your skill level. USPCC is the industry standard. Everyone else is just trying to catch up. Period.

EPCC's early decks were bad. No other way to put it. Global Titans? Terrible. Legends V1? Bad. Anyone that tried to tell you differently either has a financial or personal stake in the Asian card manufacturing plants. Then by the time the Exquisites and Legends V2 came out, the finish was markedly better. They were actually slippery, but you still had to break them in a bit to get the slip just right to produce even fans and spreads. That should not be the case. The most recent decks (NOC v.3 and Boardwalk Papers) are pretty good. They're almost as slippery as an Air Cushion deck, but you still feel a little resistance when you fan the deck, and still not consistent enough where the cards fan perfectly even fresh out of the box. The other thing I've noticed is the calandering (the dimples or air pockets in the finish) is much fainter on EPCC's newest deck. If you run your fingers across an Air Cushion finish, you definitely feel the cross-hatched, fabric like dimples in the finish. If you run your fingers across the Boardwalk Papers deck, you barely feel, or even see, the calandering. Its almost like a smooth finish. This is what contributes to the cards feeling more plasticky.

So which is better? All up to personal taste and skill level. Pure collectors don't have a clue, or give a damn. I would say for magicians, they're equal. If you're a casual cardist, then either company is appropriate because both put out high quality cards. As a more serious cardist, if your focus is on cuts and springs, then EPCC may be as good, or better for you. If your focus is on fanning or spreads, you'll probably prefer USPCC.

For cardistry in general, I think the most convincing piece of evidence for the superiority of the USPCC is that the great majority of the most elite cardists (the Virts, D$D, Jerry Cestowski, De' Vo, Andrei Jikh, etc...) use and produce only USPCC decks. That's not to say there aren't any cardists who prefer EPCC decks, and maybe more will move towards EPCC as their quality continues to improve, but for all around cardistry performance, the best still stick with the USPCC. Personally for me, nothing beats a Ohio made, casino grade Bee stock deck from the USPCC.

In my opinion, people like Bill Kalush, Don Boyer, and Mike Ratledge are putting out some heavy propaganda for the Asian card manufacturing companies because they have a specific agenda that's linked to their economic interests in these Taiwanese and Chinese card manufacturers. Don't listen to them. Don't listen to me, or other pro-USPCC supporters either. At the end of the day, just go by what your hands tell you, then there is no wrong decision or choice.

[Mike Ratledge]

In my opinion, people like Bill Kalush, Don Boyer, and Mike Ratledge are putting out some heavy propaganda for the Asian card manufacturing companies because they have a specific agenda that's linked to their economic interests in these Taiwanese and Chinese card manufacturers. Don't listen to them. Don't listen to me, or other pro-USPCC supporters either. At the end of the day, just go by what your hands tell you, then there is no wrong decision or choice.

Interesting read, sinjin, but the fact of the matter is that I have no allegiance to any specific company nor desire to take card making out of the states, in fact the latest tact I am taking is that with Apollo Playing Card Co (in Dallas Texas) you can get first quality decks, better price, and "Made in America", faster than any company other than MPC - and pretty much equal timing-wise to them. From the latest I've seen from them (Black Legacy deck designed by 4PM Designs) it's definitely a contender, so much so that if they can do what they say: deliver decks in 6 weeks from the day they get the artwork - I'm ready to toss them my business - to the point they can handle it. There's no question that the Shanghai decks made early on ("Global Titans") were crap, even Bill Kalush will tell you exactly that and also that those people won't ever see another deck to make from him, to the point they don't exist any more as far as he's concerned.

Apollo is a great unknown for most of us, having only made commercial advertising decks until very recently, but mostly 2- and 3-color marketing type decks. That's changed, and they have both a digital process line like MPC (Kodak instead of HP Indigo) as well as the traditional Heidelberg press. I'm willing to bet that by this time next year you will have seen an awful lot of their product!

[sprouts1115]

@mike - I checked out the Apollo playing card company http://www.apollocards.com/services.shtml Their website needs to be more user friendly. It seems they have 1 stock and 2 Finishes.

Screenshot 2014-08-08 16.51.36.png (17.37 KiB) Viewed 1523 times

Apollo has linen and smooth finish....

@Sin - That was a good post, but USPCC calls the stock and finish Bike and Bee and Embossed and Smooth.

My question is: What stocks and finishes does the EPCC have? I hear it's a number of companies. So this might be complicated. Ashley is more in the design of your cards. Tiffany is more like welcome to the USPCC. Have any questions?...

I got my first decks of MPC cards. I can't complain. I was expecting cardboard and the tuck box for my 64 card deck fits perfectly. And yes, wash your hands before you pick up a primo prima deck of cards I think that is some great advise or use butter like Mike says.

[Marcus]

I'd tend to agree with sinjin7 here.

I'd definitely still rank USPCC decks above the competition. Perhaps I'm picky, but that is my opinion. I've seen more and more comments about how the EPCC/LPCC decks are superior to the USPCC, however I have yet to personally hear it from somebody not in any way linked to those two companies or the plant. All of the guys with experience in card production that I'd consider unbiased and with whom I've talked have put the USPCC decks slightly above the rest.

In the end it's all opinions though. I'm just getting tired of seeing what is starting to come across as hidden ads in some places.

[MagikFingerz]

I'll add my +1 to everything Sinjin said as well, pretty much spot on with my own thoughts. I could definitely see someone preferring EPCC/LPCC over USPCC though, but I'd be willing to bet that that would be someone who doesn't do fans a lot.

[Mike Ratledge]

I'd tend to agree with sinjin7 here.

I'd definitely still rank USPCC decks above the competition. Perhaps I'm picky, but that is my opinion. I've seen more and more comments about how the EPCC/LPCC decks are superior to the USPCC, however I have yet to personally hear it from somebody not in any way linked to those two companies or the plant. All of the guys with experience in card production that I'd consider unbiased and with whom I've talked have put the USPCC decks slightly above the rest.

In the end it's all opinions though. I'm just getting tired of seeing what is starting to come across as hidden ads in some places.

Well, see - that's where the confusion comes in. I could care less which production partner you choose as far as getting your decks done. I've never said Expert / Legends decks were superior, either - just that they are a heck of a lot better than they were six months ago (and so are MPC's) and they are on par with USPCC, and I totally agree - it's all subjective. No two people have the same perspective. Apollo is the "new kid on the block", but the fact is that everybody uses that same paper stock now, except Bicycle/USPCC and they aren't saying where their stock comes from. The Arjowiggins 310gsm Casino grade black core paper is far and above anything any other company offered up until about six months ago, and that's what Apollo, MPC and Expert/Legends are using. Apollo's website is WAY out of date, not certain why. They JUST got into doing custom decks for the public, it was always 2- and 3-color decks for marketing and commercial promotions until a month or two ago and then they did the Black Legacy decks by 4PM Design. If you have that deck, open one up and see what you think. I'm the last person that is going to say that I am any kind of authority on what magicians prefer. I just know that they are all on equal footing as far as the paper stock. The finish - not so much, but all three - Expert/Legends, MPC and Apollo are again - so far ahead of where they were six months ago it's not even realistic to pull out a Global Titans deck (made in a plant nobody uses any more with a finish nobody uses any more on a paper nobody uses any more) and try to compare it to Bicycle decks. It's comparing apples to oranges.

Me? I'd just as soon everybody use Apollo because I can get those decks in your hands in six weeks from the time you have the deck funded, but that's not what is important to everybody and we're all used to waiting 3 or 4 months from funding to fulfillment (5 or 6 lately sometimes?). There is no "one size fits all". If you compared them all a year ago USPCC-made decks WERE head and shoulders above the rest. That's just no longer true. Even they had to slipstream in a new paper stock to try to stay ahead of the pack, because they were nipping at their heels.

It all goes back to the same argument we all made a year ago: the magicians want A, cardists perfer B and the collectors care more about C. It's never going to be the same for all.

[Marcus]

I might've been a bit unclear about what I meant with agreeing with sinjin77 there, Mike. I'm in agreement with how he tend to rank and describe the different decks, I wasn't referring to the last paragraph (though I agree with the "don't listen to anybody else but yourself" message).

As far as the paper stock goes - that's just one piece of the puzzle. Even if the USPCC were to use the same as the others or have their own (which in all honesty I have no info about these days), the printing process, finishing and cutting all factor in in so many ways. It's just like if you were to give the same ingredients to Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver - the end result would probably vary greatly.

[Mike Ratledge]

True, I forgot to include option D, which is what I prefer, and it may be some combination of A, B & C - or not.

[th4mo]

As a collector, I don't have much to add to the discussion of stocks and finishes. But someone mentioned the chemical odor of EPCC decks recently (another thread maybe?). I do open most of my decks, and to be honest I've never paid much attention to the odor 'til others brought it up...

Anyway, just received my hive decks today (yes, i caved) and they definitely STINK!
Compared them to my Encarded Zeniths and those stunk as well, though not as strongly (maybe because they are not so fresh from the presses...).

My point is... now that i've smelled the stench, it cannot be unsmelled.
Gonna be a little more partial to USPCC from now on...

[Mike Ratledge]

As a collector, I don't have much to add to the discussion of stocks and finishes. But someone mentioned the chemical odor of EPCC decks recently (another thread maybe?). I do open most of my decks, and to be honest I've never paid much attention to the odor 'til others brought it up...

Anyway, just received my hive decks today (yes, i caved) and they definitely STINK!
Compared them to my Encarded Zeniths and those stunk as well, though not as strongly (maybe because they are not so fresh from the presses...).

My point is... now that i've smelled the stench, it cannot be unsmelled.
Gonna be a little more partial to USPCC from now on...

Which deck(s)? That chemical was eliminated from the sealant mixture a couple of months ago, so it shouldn't be on any Expert/Legends cards created since about mid-June. Of course, the problem is it takes at least a 3 or 4 weeks "ocean freight" float into either Oakland or Port of NY/NJ to even get those decks over here from Taipei, so it's a pretty sure thing that certain decks that were already printed back in early June are just now getting distributed. I give a good sniff to all the decks coming in just for that reason, and things that are very recent like Gnostic just don't have it any more.