King's Wild Crowdfunding

[sinjin7]

From the King's Wild Blog:

"It's been a long and exciting road over the past year starting and developing Kings Wild Project. As time goes my I hope is to make your experiences with Kings Wild Project more enjoyable than with any other playing card company. I want Kings Wild Project to become THE industry standard of what is expected for both quality and excellence both with design and also the customer experience.

With that I am happy to announce that over the past months I have been working with incredibly talented developers to harness the power of crowd-funding exclusively on the Kings Wild Website. This crowd funding platform will be exclusively for Kings Wild Project decks and projects alone. I already have projects lined up and ready to go with my new system and hope that this will be a great step forward in the growth and self sustainability of Kings Wild Project."

This was already posted in the Something Wicked Comes This Way Part 3 thread, but I thought I'd start a new thread so the other one doesn't get hijacked.

I have mixed feelings about this. You would think that Jackson has become established enough that he wouldn't have to rely on crowdfunding anymore to get his decks off the ground. This seems to run against the spirit of crowdfunding, and what he is setting up is basically just an online store with customers being able to pre-order decks before they're actually produced.

Personally, I'd rather hold on to my money and purchase products from a company when I want and get the products right away. Why should I let a company hold on to my money for months and wait for a product that may or may not come for months at a time? I'm willing to do this to support a new fledgling company trying to achieve a dream, but just needs a little help or boost, hence the spirit of true crowdfunding. I'm not willing to do this with an established company.

Jackson should just let go of the crutch that is crowdfunding and take the plunge and be a real company and produce great products with his own merit and resources. That's what all the other big boys do, and if he wants to "become THE industry standard", then be a big boy about it.

With Kickstarter, Deck$tarter, CardLauncher, and now King's Wild, the niche market for custom playing card crowdfunding has become very crowded very quickly. I'm going to be curious on how this affects pricing, theoretically the more competition, the better the pricing, which would be a welcome reversing of this trend of rising custom playing card prices. I don't think the market is robust enough to support all these different players, let's see who survives the carnage.

[SBurk49]

I was wondering who was gonna post about it first.

I agree wholeheartedly about the getting the products right away thing. Most of my money in cards is now in KS pledges. None of which have arrived yet.

I say pre-order, then sale. No 4-8 months out BS.

[Norbie]

I'm so sorry to repeat myself....

I wish him success and best of luck. However, this is to much for me as I'm sure there will be at least one project (ok, let's throw out "Deckstarted" from this conversation) I really want on each of those Playing Card crowd founders, and only so little of spending money. This will suck. And since I'm the most important person in the world, at least that's what my mum says, please listen to me when I say that this has to stop - no more new playing card crowdfunder companies.

[wahl0108]

I know that tons of us love Jackson's work and he always gets a ton of support here on the forums. I understand that some of the funds from Kickstarter go to them, and maybe that's what he's trying to avoid. It also may be because he has a ton of projects lined up and it would be difficult for him to print them all at once. Maybe it's to gauge the interest because some people can only afford so many decks at one time and how many he should end up printing. I do, however, wish that we were able to get decks within a week or so of hitting pledge. It will be interesting to see who survives the crowdfunding craze, but I'm sure no matter what Jackson does he will still come out on top, and he's one of the ones who deserves to, so all the best to him.

[Eoghann]

He's too far in to turn back now. It's happening. No amount of complaints will change that so I'll keep those to myself. I'm all for it if only if this means that, since he's skipping Kickstarter fees and such; the pledge tiers and decks themselves will be much more affordable.

[Norbie]

He's too far in to turn back now. It's happening. No amount of complaints will change that so I'll keep those to myself. I'm all for it if only if this means that, since he's skipping Kickstarter fees and such; the pledge tiers and decks themselves will be much more affordable.

I'm pretty sure you'll/me/everyone find something to complain about even though it won't change a thing.

I do hope the projects will be cheaper to produce and the savings funneled down to the backers.

[Eoghann]

Oh absolutely. God knows I love to.

Just saying the crowdfunding crutch...who would want to leave it? It's the perfect way to gauge if your idea will fly rather than set you back $15,000. Sure I would much prefer not have to wait 3 or more months to get the deck but it is what it is. If Jackson has found a way to improve on that using this new tool more power to him.

[JacksonRobinson]

Ha Ha, you guys are awesome! I haven't even done anything yet and you are already condemning it to fail. If you don't like crowdfunding / preorder just don't do it. I've been buying my girl scout cookies preorder for decades and haven't complained when I put those sweet frozen thin mints in my mouth. (sorry to everone who doesn't get the girlscout ref). If you don't like waiting just don't preorder, wait till the decks and such are here, then buy them... wait then there will be gnashing of teeth about the prices.

Crowdfunding is not a crutch at all, its awesome and it's allowing me to make people like D&D and E piss their big girl panties. Crowdfunding / preorder as been around far before KS came around it was just called different things.

Another thing to remember is the card collecting world probably makes up 50% of my costumer base. The other 50% don't care, and don't buy every deck that comes out. My decks may be the only decks they know about so why would I throttle my output if they are hungry and asking for it? I love how many decks are being produced right now, I hope that it doubles in the next 6 months, it only makes the competition more refining.

My crowdfunding site is just for me. I'm not gonna hold submissions, or offer it to others. I paid for it and worked for it im gonna use it.

[MagikFingerz]

Ha Ha, you guys are awesome! I haven't even done anything yet and you are already condemning it to fail. If you don't like crowdfunding / preorder just don't do it. I've been buying my girl scout cookies preorder for decades and haven't complained when I put those sweet frozen thin mints in my mouth. (sorry to everone who doesn't get the girlscout ref). If you don't like waiting just don't preorder, wait till the decks and such are here, then buy them... wait then there will be gnashing of teeth about the prices.

Valid point, Jackson. The thing is though, the way you usually run campaigns leaves those of us not wanting to participate in the crowdfunding at a disadvantage. Most of your limited editions are sold during the campaign, and the ones that are left are sold at a premium on your site. I'm not saying that they should be the same price of course, but the increase have been quite substantial so far. And for those of us who are international customers, we either get shafted on shipping if pledging for the campaigns (not your fault, but individual shipping for each project adds up) or we get shafted on inflated after-market prices if not.

So, if you're still looking for more ways to expand your growing collectible playing card empire, may I suggest some way to hold decks for international customers and ship them out as they add up (thereby minimizing our shipping expenses). A new branch of your fulfillment center maybe?

[Cbkimble]

Another thing to remember is the card collecting world probably makes up 50% of my costumer base. The other 50% don't care, and don't buy every deck that comes out. My decks may be the only decks they know about so why would I throttle my output if they are hungry and asking for it? I love how many decks are being produced right now, I hope that it doubles in the next 6 months, it only makes the competition more refining.

How often do you plan creating new projects? Are you planning on having back to back or overlapping projects?

[bhong]

So, if you're still looking for more ways to expand your growing collectible playing card empire, may I suggest some way to hold decks for international customers and ship them out as they add up (thereby minimizing our shipping expenses). A new branch of your fulfillment center maybe?

That's actually a really good idea time and something I can understand as a fellow international backer. I tend to buy in bulk in Kickstarter to spread out the average price of deck plus shipping and this way, the larger order would end up costing less on customs fee, if there's anyway. No guarantees, but it's definitely worth thinking about.

[JacksonRobinson]

I really like the International "Hold" idea Magikfingerz. How do you see something like that working?

In my head I could test drive something out with a few people at first, something like this maybe?

You pay like $30-$50 for an entire year and every time your deck cash reaches say like a brick or something I send it international free or something. Don't hold me to what I just said just spitballing how it might work.

Or maybe I could team up with someone like JP playing cards for my international orders. I like the first idea better cuz there are less moving parts for me but I def open to either one.

Please Give me your thoughts.

[sinjin7]

Ha Ha, you guys are awesome! I haven't even done anything yet and you are already condemning it to fail... If you don't like waiting just don't preorder, wait till the decks and such are here, then buy them... wait then there will be gnashing of teeth about the prices.

OK, I'm just going to ignore the snarky sarcasm and get to my points. First of all, no one that I could tell condemned you to fail, we just pointed out there are now a lot of crowdfunding platforms suddenly and questioned whether this niche market could sustain all of them.

Secondly, and my main point, is that the crowdfunding platform is not a sustainable model for an established business that wants to be big and successful. Its more appropriate for the small guy who wants a little boost because he doesn't have the resources to start up on his own. Trust me, sooner or later, people will grow tired and impatient of the delayed gratification of the crowdfunding model and move on. If you can't scale your company and be able to produce products into commerce without the crutch of crowdfunded income, I fear for your long term viability in an increasingly competitive niche market.

I like you, I like your products more, and I'd prefer to see you be successful so you can continue putting out good product. None of what I have said is designed to be destructive, it is just constructive criticism. On a public forum such as UC, you're going to see both the good and the bad. Regardless of which, you always should be professional if you aspire to be the "industry standard."

[vasta41]

I really like the International "Hold" idea Magikfingerz. How do you see something like that working?

In my head I could test drive something out with a few people at first, something like this maybe?

You pay like $30-$50 for an entire year and every time your deck cash reaches say like a brick or something I send it international free or something. Don't hold me to what I just said just spitballing how it might work.

Or maybe I could team up with someone like JP playing cards for my international orders. I like the first idea better cuz there are less moving parts for me but I def open to either one.

Please Give me your thoughts.

This concept was around when Mike F. ran things (BMPOKERWORLD). Being from the US I never participated in it but from what I read it seemed to work really well. I think he held decks that people would purchase from his store and ship them in bulk once they bought a certain point. Someone else here probably has more insight about this than I do.

[vasta41]

Trust me, sooner or later, people will grow tired and impatient of the delayed gratification of the crowdfunding model and move on.

If I were a designer, I would love crowd funding. Capital (money) isn't an easy thing to come by when starting out so crowd funding can be a win-win. But as a consumer I'm growing to hate it. It's a 4-5+ month tease and I am growing VERY impatient with the process, especially for some of the amazing decks out there that we all know will fund and then some. I'm definitely not at a point where I'm ready to or will move on and I understand the process and am acceptant of it simply by all the decks I still pledge for. But I am starting to wish there were a quicker, easier way for me as a consumer to buy these crowd-funded playing cards..

[sinjin7]

Anything to ease the sting of international shipping rates would be a bonus. It would be nice I there was a distribution center in Europe and Canada (this doesn't help the rest of the world, I know) that could receive mass orders for their whole markets and individually distribute from there. These mass orders probably have to be shipped in overseas cargo barges (slow) to make it economically feasible, but I don't know if people will want to wait even longer than they already are for this.

*Edit* It appears Mike R. has something up his sleeve in regards to international shipping, and if he can pull it off, it may drastically reduce shipping costs to many (but not all) countries outside the U.S. It remains to be seen if he can actually come through...

[MagikFingerz]

I really like the International "Hold" idea Magikfingerz. How do you see something like that working?

In my head I could test drive something out with a few people at first, something like this maybe?

You pay like $30-$50 for an entire year and every time your deck cash reaches say like a brick or something I send it international free or something. Don't hold me to what I just said just spitballing how it might work.

Or maybe I could team up with someone like JP playing cards for my international orders. I like the first idea better cuz there are less moving parts for me but I def open to either one.

Please Give me your thoughts.

I suppose the "how" would depend on the financial side of things, which I have no clue about. I guess you'd have to set up and run scenarios to see which method would be most financially sound. It will definitely require storage space, how much would depend on how many utilizes the service (although the optimal amount of decks for each shipment shouldn't take that much space). A collaboration with someone like Paul (JP) might work, but I would think that the added shipping might not be worth it (that's assuming that shipping to UK then rest of Europe is more expensive than direct shipping, but I could be wrong).

Now, just to be clear, when I came up with this I was hoping this service would work for all of our deck orders, not just the ones we place with you. I don't know if that would be feasible. A flat rate as you mentioned I'm assuming is if it was just orders with KW, since that's really the only way a flat rate would benefit you.

[ecNate]

Now, just to be clear, when I came up with this I was hoping this service would work for all of our deck orders, not just the ones we place with you. I don't know if that would be feasible. A flat rate as you mentioned I'm assuming is if it was just orders with KW, since that's really the only way a flat rate would benefit you.

Somebody had mentioned, I think on this forum even, the service http://www.shipito.com/, but there are also others like http://www.myus.com/ or http://reship.com/. No experience or insight into any of them, but if all these services exist I'm not sure there is a need to re-invent the wheel unless it makes sense to do so because of niche or lower costs/convenience.

[Mike Ratledge]

Jackson, I am busy, but I have a solution like sinjin said. Call me, I am never too busy to talk... Actually I think I have two, and I am working on a third.

[Norbie]

... My crowdfunding site is just for me. I'm not gonna hold submissions, or offer it to others. I paid for it and worked for it im gonna use it.

I believe you've got a big enough fan-base for this to be successful. In one of your Google conversations you mentioned one big advantage of KickStarter is the Marketing/Publicity that they offer, you're not to concerned about missing that aspect by leaving KickStarter?

[TGunitedcardists]

I really like the International "Hold" idea Magikfingerz. How do you see something like that working?

In my head I could test drive something out with a few people at first, something like this maybe?

You pay like $30-$50 for an entire year and every time your deck cash reaches say like a brick or something I send it international free or something. Don't hold me to what I just said just spitballing how it might work.

Or maybe I could team up with someone like JP playing cards for my international orders. I like the first idea better cuz there are less moving parts for me but I def open to either one.

Please Give me your thoughts.

The simplest solution would be to rent a storage unit with a bunch of cubbyholes or spaces for international shipments. A storage unit is super cheap.
I also suggest doing a pre-pre-order. Be transparent. Release your all your scheduled products. I bet many international buyers (and others) would cherry pick what they are interested in, and would probably order enough to know exactly when they have a bigger shipment that they could save money.

For example, imagine if you had 6 projects, and open them up for orders, people could take choose multiple decks from each project and they get an assorted shipment.

At some point, you're going to have to keep some stock. Make even larger print runs, and you'll make more money in the long run. While limited edition decks are nice, but if I were a designer, I wouldn't do them. I would reserve the right to keep the design, and update certain elements, even if it were the colors or the back design and resell them. You'd make more money in the long run.

By making your card schedule a road map, you're going to get a lot of information earlier than if you didn't.

Another idea would be to talk to EPCC to do international shipments directly from the factory. If they were to think about such a service, there would be even more people willing to print their cards with them.

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

I say "go for it" if anyone could give the "BIG DOGS" a run for their money and introduce some healthy competition - It's JR.

More power to him. Crowdfund.. pre-order... kickstarter... whatever you want to call it. Bottom line I like good cards, so He's got my CCD # on speed dial.

[lolo]

I really like the International "Hold" idea Magikfingerz. How do you see something like that working .

I use shipito.com for my packages consolidation. They hold my packages until 180 days. They can open the packages and consolidate them to a new one. They can put the packages directly in another one too.

[nECr0MaNCeD]

I have never heard of the consolidation services. I am doing this for one friend here on UC. As a matter of fact I have a bunch of his decks in the next room. I'd be glad to help anyone interested as long as it isn't a hundred of you! This is a no strings attached offer. Also, anyone having to declare value... well they're gifts, right?

PS If anyone here who starts a business like this or adds it to their business, I will be glad to suspend this out of respect.

[lolo]

Also, anyone having to declare value... well they're gifts, right ?

In France, customs are never bind by customs declarations (gift or not, 1$ value or not). They can open the package, verify the merchandise, determine a value or pick it from the documents included (bill for example) and put taxe on (VAT and custom taxes). If you are not agree, you can go see a judge.

IMHO, every customs act like that.

Sometimes, you fall between the cracks, sometimes not

[MagikFingerz]

Also, anyone having to declare value... well they're gifts, right ?

In France, customs are never bind by customs declarations (gift or not, 1$ value or not). They can open the package, verify the merchandise, determine a value or pick it from the documents included (bill for example) and put taxe on (VAT and custom taxes). If you are not agree, you can go see a judge.

IMHO, every customs act like that.

Sometimes, you fall between the cracks, sometimes not

It's true, the customs people are power-hungry maniacs with a god complex who enjoy displaying their douchebaggery.

[Paul Middleton]

A collaboration with someone like Paul (JP) might work, but I would think that the added shipping might not be worth it (that's assuming that shipping to UK then rest of Europe is more expensive than direct shipping, but I could be wrong).

I think he's referring to a bulk shipment to the UK which would then be split and used to fill pledges (orders?). We've got two KS campaigns that we're going to be filling UK pledges for this summer, and we've had various discussions over the past few months - some of which have come to nothing.

What should be noted, is that Royal Mail (in the UK) don't operate like USPS - the more we despatch the better the price and so, it stands to reason if we increase the numbers we'd get a better price for those we're fulfilling orders and pledges for. It's the main reason why standard European delivery is now free for orders over £50 and not £60 as before - i'm not saying we could do that for US partners of course as it's a bonus for our customers to attract them to our site.

I'm open to anyone that wants to discuss the idea.

[caramelo]

Also, anyone having to declare value... well they're gifts, right ?

In France, customs are never bind by customs declarations (gift or not, 1$ value or not). They can open the package, verify the merchandise, determine a value or pick it from the documents included (bill for example) and put taxe on (VAT and custom taxes). If you are not agree, you can go see a judge.

IMHO, every customs act like that.

Sometimes, you fall between the cracks, sometimes not

Here in Portugal is the same.
For example:
last month I ordered 2 bundles plus 2 decks in Ellusionist store to make a total of over $75 USD = 1 free rare deck (they gave me red LTD )
The order joined $38.71 USD of shipping & handling, which gave a total of about $110 usd.
Customs seized the order for 29 days, I had to submit a statement that the decks were not to be sold to third parties, a declaration that I had no selling shop and at the end I had to pay more $40.6 USD of taxes to receive my order.
At the end I pay more for shipping and taxes than for the decks.
In Europe we do not pay taxes on any purchase that is bought in Europe, so if there is a way of decks arrive here (Europe) and then sent to the rest of the European countries we would not have to pay the value of 2 decks per 1 purchased.

[Paul Middleton]

OUCH. I've heard some horror stories (and experienced plenty too) but that's pretty bad...

[lolo]

OUCH. I've heard some horror stories (and experienced plenty too) but that's pretty bad...

Don't repeat this story to your children tonight or they will not sleep