How Important are the Tuck Case Extras?

[DukeBoy]

I ask this because I got into Deck Collecting because of the art. I can go to Wal-Mart or other similar vendors and pick up decks for <$5. Now I know these are high run decks 100K+ so the cost per deck is down and there is not the added middle man (designer) between USPCC and the distributor. When I started buying off of KS the decks ran around $9-$10 each. Now they are around $12-$15 for the base edition and the sky is the limit for the deluxe editions. For you as a collector how important is the tuck case with foil, embossing, inside printing, inside foil, special closures?

I wish the basic model would stay at the $10 with no whistles or bells, in fact you can drop the Bicycle brand too. the embossing and foil was neat at the beginning because it was rare, now every deck is doing it and it is not all that special anymore to me.

[bhong]

Part of the issue, too, with Kickstarter prices is that shipping and handling is included in it. That's roughly 5-6$ depending how well packaged the deck is. I know that most people don't register is as domestic shipping is included, but in theory that drops the actually deck price to 5-7$/deck when decks are at 12$. That technically makes them close to par to the price of huge mass produced USPCC decks as well as those produces by T11/E/D&D. Yes, I know there's no way to wave away the shipping and handling fee and go "hey, I'll drop by your place to pick up the deck" so no need to ship it.

The break down of the 12$ Kickstarter price goes roughly:
6$ Shipping & Packaging
6$ Printing the deck

The actual deck printing cost from USPCC can vary from 1.50$ to the sky is the limit depending on how fancy and limited, but I've heard of prices quoted at 13$/deck from USPCC (yes, that's the price the designer would pay before marking it up). My argument of production cost is that afterwards, how much should the artist/designer make? I know that side tracks things a bit, but as an artist, I don't want to create a deck and make money 'cause I put time, creativity and my own talent (which has taken years to build up) into it. There's a lot of hidden cost to a deck and I think it's important to see those as we discuss the price.

But back to the question, as expensive as it is, I enjoy having all the bells and whistles for the deck. I guess, for me, I want the full vision of what the artist/designer wanted. For example, imagine the Whispering Imps (v1) just printed on the regular tuck stock with black ink and red ink. It's serviceable, but sure wouldn't look as nice.

I think part of the issue is that decks that have no bells or whistles are still price at 12$. Pagan, Feds, Empire, Deco, Whispering Imps and etc are pretty amazing decks and I think are worth that 12$. And then there are other Kickstarter decks that are cool, but I think should be lower. Maybe that's the issue as well. Not all 12$ Kickstarter decks are equal, which goes back to my question of how much an artist should get paid for their time, creativity and talent.

[MagikFingerz]

The tuck box pimping really isn't necessary to me, especially considering how much it (apparently) raises the per deck price. Like with many decks (T11, Aloys, CARC to name a few examples), the better the tuck looks the higher the chance of a let-down when opening it and taking the cards out. There are few worse things than seeing the back design displayed on the back of the tuck in glorious metallic ink, and then seeing the actual cards being horrendously boring in comparison.

There are of course decks that go all out on the tuck without overshadowing the cards, but they are certainly in the minority.

And no, I don't give a rat(man)'s ass about the Bicycle branding either

[DukeBoy]

Mr. Hong I PMed you about shipping I would like to keep this about the cases.

[Mike Ratledge]

Well, it's one of those "it depends" things, I suppose. Frankly, it has become overdone, but - why wouldn't you do it if you're the artist? The fact is that - yes - people have come to expect it, and - yes - it's done so often it has become mundane. But the fact is that most people want those and unlike us they don't buy everything that they see that they like and can afford (and I know, I'm the worst for pointing fingers there!).

Fact is that with USPCC those tucks have gotten outrageous with the "external tuck case provider" they use. The darned tuck boxes cost you more than the decks. The opposite is true with Expert PCC - in general you can go insane with the tuck, embossing, foiling, holographic seals and all those things and still come in for $5 or $6 Q5000 (quantity) and slightly more if you go down to Q2500 and if you do Q1000 then the costs for the plates and setup adds a bit to the cost of each deck. Just doing the math, if your costs are $1000 for the setup and plates, then it's $0.20 per deck for Q5000 and goes up to $1 per deck for Q1000. That applies to either manufacturer equally. Try that with USPCC and that's when you start seeing prices of $12 per deck and things. You would think that as many things as USPCC has acquired that they would purchase that "external tuck case provider".

[Maddest Hammer]

I think the boss is correct. You can have an amazing tuck, like Monarchs or Sultan Republic, and have a pretty lame deck inside the box. On the other side, the Requiem tuck is pretty subdued, aside from some embossing and a great illustration, then printing on the inside of the tuck, and BOOM, that deck is unbelievable. Encarded seemed to hit the middle, with an amazingly foiled and embossed tuck, and cards to match.
In the end, I think I'd rather have a subtle tuck with a killer deck inside, than a totally gonzo tuck, and a deck of rider backs hidden in it.

[volantangel]

Well amazing tucks are nice to take pictures of.. And i like to take pictures

[sinjin7]

The break down of the 12$ Kickstarter price goes roughly:
6$ Shipping & Packaging
6$ Printing the deck

I'm not saying that some people don't actually spend $6 to ship and pack, but that pricing estimate is pretty excessive, especially when you consider many/most orders package multiple decks, so you're not always shipping only one deck at a time.

I know he's not a very popular person on this forum anymore, but one of the things that BMP was good at pointing out was the actual costs of the playing card industry. He was the first person to really publish what the USPCC rates were with respect to stock and finish back in the days when there were more options than just 2 types of stock and finish. And he carefully broke down what is required to securely package something as simple as a deck of cards both in terms of packing materials and postage costs, and if you know what your doing there is no way you should be averaging $6 per deck for secure and safe shipping.

Shipping is a hidden cost that some businesses use to pad their margins. I hate it when someone advertises reasonable prices and then jack you with the shipping. I'd rather they charge a higher price for their item to make the profit they need and charge just what the actual cost of shipping and packing is so this way I know exactly what I'm paying for and getting.

Getting back to topic, how important are tuck case extras? Unimportant for card players and magicians. Important for cardists. Extremely important for collectors. Cardists can use the tuck in certain flourishing routines, and certainly in videos. A lot of collectors never open their decks, so the tuck is what its all about, plus serial numbering adds to the value of a collectable.

[Mike Ratledge]

Totally agree, Brandon! The hidden shipping costs always burn my butt. That's why eBay went to fees on both cost + shipping because people kept nickle and dimng them by making the price $5 and shipping $15. Now it's more honest because $20 is $20 no matter how you split it. The thing is most people only show part of the true costs, and they think we aren't paying attention. $3.25 a deck is just that, but if it doesn't include the tuck...

[bhong]

Part of the shipping and packaging is the price of fulfilment, whether it's a creator doing all the work themselves or if they get a fulfilment centre to do that. So, yes I do agree that it shouldn't cost 72$ (12x6$) to ship a brick of cards, at the upper end of things, that 72$ can be broken down appropriately so postage cost, material and time to package it all together. Some fulfilment centre charge a price per an item ship/packaged (ie. 2$/deck). Does this apply to everyone? Nope, it sure doesn't, but there are some that it applies to. I got my Sherlock package, amazing package with individual wrap per deck and in box inside of a larger box. I got my Pagan decks this week and wow, two decks together and then wrapped in card board and everything. Both were perfect without any damage. That's amazing too. Equally, all that is time consuming to cut packaging, pack and pack it right.

The other price I did mention is what does the artist and creator get? Let's say that a creator makes 1$/deck sold on Kickstarter and they do a min run with USPCC that's 2500 decks. So that creator makes 2500$ at the end of the day IF every deck is sold. 2500$ for how much time? Running the Kickstarter campaign, that's about a month these days. Fulfilment can take 1-3 weeks depending. And then design of the deck. That will vary a lot from a few hours to months.

So totally, I get it that simpler tucks can translate to lower Kickstarter price. I just honestly don't think that all decks are created equal in their design and fulfilment.

I'm definitely all for a great deck at a great price. I love it when USPCC works with other designers (Brosmind, Bicycle Street Art, Robocycle, etc) and release those decks at 3.99$ on their site. They're semi custom (tuck, courts, AoS, joker) to full custom (everything) and they've got standard printed tucks (no emboss, foil, etc). Are those decks for everyone? Again, no, but I tend to get them to send a message to USPCC to do more of them.

edit: I'm sorry for side tracking with other fees like shipping and artist fee, but it's an important part of that 12$/deck price. Cheaper tucks still might not get cheaper prices.

[JacksonRobinson]

From my stand point the tuck is as important as the cards them selves. There are little to NO options that you can choose that will change the performance of the actual cards themselves. All this Blah Blah about there being different cards stocks is really bunk as Bee and Aristocrat are the same exact stock just compressed at different weights. THE ONLY difference a designer can make (when printing with USPCC) is how much ink coverage he decides to used.

Back to the tuck topic:

It all depends on what you in the card world for and what your final aim is for the cards. Like some have said before, collector's love tucks cuz they never open the decks and magicians could care less ect.

As for the previously quoted prices by BPW those are completely out dated. Most individuals get the 6 year old PDF from USPC customs and fancy themselves and a playing card production cost expert when it is far from what it will cost in the end.

The tuck case for me is part of the complete package, it needs to be cared for as much as the deck inside. Ultimately there are different types of consumers thus different types of decks.

I plan on focusing on a different consumer than I have before with my new Tally Ho while at the same time creating something for my foundation of followers as well. I hope to create a bare bones version that is nothing but a great deck of cards in a simple tuck case for the likes of The MagicFingerz with a price point to match his deck usage style, while also creating the Uber limited, extra foiled, extra embossing, extra sweet sauce, dipped in the gold plated finish, with a carbon fiber numbered seal for those who wouldn't even know if I filled the deck with white cards.

Repeating myself:

It all depends on the consumers final goal and reason for buying, a farmer who needs a work truck is not going to buy a Ferarri, while the investment banker in Manhattan who is looking for a Ferarri is not going to buy and F150.

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

collectible decks - fine. But if it's a deck I want to use everyday, I say no extras. Look at fontaines, I mean sure - the audience is Zach fan boys but there is something to be said about a clean design with no perks.

[bhong]

collectible decks - fine. But if it's a deck I want to use everyday, I say no extras. Look at fontaines, I mean sure - the audience is Zach fan boys but there is something to be said about a clean design with no perks.

The Blue Fontaines were on Kickstarter for 12$/deck .....

[flyers3003]

I think an amazing tuck can still be done without all the bells and whistles. Take the Emporer deck as an example. Other than the Bicycle branding, I don't think there are any other extras on the tuck. Even the seal is standard. But, to me anyway, it is one of the most beautiful tucks out there. I'd much rather have an Emporer-style tuck (focus is on the artwork on the tuck) at a reasonable price than a tuck with Foil, special seal, embossing, etc. that has the price cranked up. Don't get me wrong, I'll buy a pimped out tuck, but there has to be some other reason to buy besides just the tuck. Zenith is a good example of this (a deck that is more than just a shiny exterior - the cards are amazing too).

[sprouts1115]

Where are these Zach fanboys? I can never find them.

It seems like you have to make two different decks. One with a box with all the bells and whistles for the collectors. Of course, this one has to be printed in a limited number never to be printed again. The second deck is for Magicians and Fanboys. This deck could be somewhat limited. It could be as simple as putting the year on the box. This year would be 2014. You could print more next year just by putting 2015 on the box and it would be considered semi-limited. Limited and Unlimited needs a balance. Jackson made some Federal 52 cards never to be made again. It was so successful he is making a version 2. Maybe in this one he should make some uber limited for collectors with a great box and make some unlimited with a plain jane box for the Magicians and Fanboys. Make them cheap enough who knows you might see them at Wal-mart or at least E-bay...

[Sher]

I'm a collector. I don't open most of my decks, so I'd like a tuck with all the bells and whistles, so I can have something nice to look at. I think Encarded has the right balance. Cards have an awesome design, and the tucks are beyond gorgeous as well. I really love the Sherlock tuck boxes as well, and am excited for the Ornates (especially the Obsidians).

[Lotrek]

From my PoV the answer is: "it depends". There are decks that really need foiling and embossing on the tuck and decks that should not have it. For example "Requiem" with foiling would have been "too much" in my opinion. The same goes for "Grotesque". But there are other decks that cry for foiling. But I agree that there is a general tendency to add things to make a deck more special. The truth is that the only thing that really makes a deck special is the design. And when I say design I also mean the decision to make the tuck with or without foil.

[Sher]

From my PoV the answer is: "it depends". There are decks that really need foiling and embossing on the tuck and decks that should not have it. For example "Requiem" with foiling would have been "too much" in my opinion. The same goes for "Grotesque". But there are other decks that cry for foiling. But I agree that there is a general tendency to add things to make a deck more special. The truth is that the only thing that really makes a deck special is the design. And when I say design I also mean the decision to make the tuck with or without foil.

That makes sense. I don't mind so much that the Requiem or Grotesque tuck boxes were not embellished.Though I really do love the foiled and hand assembled tuck boxes you had for the Grotesque campaign.

[ryzellon]

On a tuck, the design matters more to me than bells & whistles. Sometimes those embellishments are a bit of a liability: there are some beautiful tucks that can't withstand even minimal handling. For the collectors who keep decks in the cello or in a display case, this isn't really a problem.

I'm a collector, but I open my decks. (I get the feeling that this is a rarity.) When scoping out whether a deck piques my interest, it goes something like this: courts > backs > pips > tuck > jokers > bells > whistles. In an ideal world, I would showcase the art on the card faces along with the card back and tuck. But if I had to choose just one, it's going to be the card faces. I've never picked up a deck on the strength of the tuck alone, and I don't think I've ever felt the need to pay more for a deck just because it's got embellishments.

As long as embellishments enhance a good design, I'm thrilled. But I don't want to see it used as a crutch to spice up a mediocre tuck in lieu of strengthening the design itself.

[sinjin7]

All this Blah Blah about there being different cards stocks is really bunk as Bee and Aristocrat are the same exact stock just compressed at different weights.

As much as I respect you as a designer, that is the only perspective you're coming from - as a designer. This is evident with this limited view of stock. The compression is what makes ALL the difference. There is a HUGE difference in how standard stock handles versus Bee stock. There is a reason why major casinos that have multimillion dollar contracts with the USPCC demand casino grade Bee stock over standard stock. This blah blah bunk you so flippantly dismiss is what determines the stiffness, thickness, durability, and snap of a deck.

By the time you got into the game, there is basically only two types of stock from the USPCC. But there was a time not too distant in the past where there were much more varieties of stock, and many of those decks are still available. There was a wide range of performance characteristics in these different stocks. And even today, there are marked, quantifiable differences between standard stock and Bee stock that you think are so exactly the same.

Ask a card mechanic if the difference in stock is important. Richard Turner, perhaps the preeminent card mechanic, works exclusively with only Bee stock. Ask a magician if the stock is important when trying to palm a card, or get a break in a deck. Ask a cardist if stock is important when springing cards or performing certain cuts.

Of course, as a deck designer, you don't give a crap unless it affects your production cost and your bottom line. It just bugs me when people who are looked up to in their particular field (but aren't necessarily knowledgeable about the physical properties or performance aspects of playing cards) make ignorant or blanket statements about finish or stock. It tends to perpetuate the belief that these elements are no longer important, thus cheapening and marginalizing the fields of cardistry, magic, and card manipulation.

The thing that I appreciate about you, however, is that you (more so than other designers) seem to recognize there are specific groups of people out there with specific priorities. Its not just one homogenous group of sycophantic Jackson collectors out there blowing smoke up your ass ready to mindlessly gobble up whatever you pump out. Your core demographic will always be the card collector, ranging from casual to hardcore. But it does seem like you're also going to try to accommodate the card players or cardists, or other groups as well, so kudos to those efforts. But this is why I'm also so disappointed you dismissed the importance of stock the way you did.

Getting back to the topic, I think the real reason this tuck box question was asked is in its relation to the escalating cost of custom playing cards. The more blinged out the tuck box, the more expensive the deck, and the greater the beating our wallets take. I think any good designer can make a great tuck box with or without embossing, foils, die-cuts, serial numbering, or any other bells and whistles. But the fancier tucks draw more attention and are an additional source of profit for designers, so this is what we're going to continue to see. A good analogy is the automobile industry. Ford, Honda, and Mercedes have a much higher profit margin from their premium models than their base models.

[Mike Ratledge]

It all depends on what you in the card world for and what your final aim is for the cards. Like some have said before, collector's love tucks cuz they never open the decks and magicians could care less ect.

...

I plan on focusing on a different consumer than I have before with my new Tally Ho while at the same time creating something for my foundation of followers as well. I hope to create a bare bones version that is nothing but a great deck of cards in a simple tuck case for the likes of The MagicFingerz with a price point to match his deck usage style, while also creating the Uber limited, extra foiled, extra embossing, extra sweet sauce, dipped in the gold plated finish, with a carbon fiber numbered seal for those who wouldn't even know if I filled the deck with white cards.

Repeating myself:

It all depends on the consumers final goal and reason for buying, a farmer who needs a work truck is not going to buy a Ferarri, while the investment banker in Manhattan who is looking for a Ferarri is not going to buy and F150.

Do I smell a Pirate-themed deck? hmmm... Just looking at the avatar which changed today. Baseball been very very good to you?

[JacksonRobinson]

All this Blah Blah about there being different cards stocks is really bunk as Bee and Aristocrat are the same exact stock just compressed at different weights.

As much as I respect you as a designer, that is the only perspective you're coming from - as a designer. This is evident with this limited view of stock. The compression is what makes ALL the difference. There is a HUGE difference in how standard stock handles versus Bee stock. There is a reason why major casinos that have multimillion dollar contracts with the USPCC demand casino grade Bee stock over standard stock. This blah blah bunk you so flippantly dismiss is what determines the stiffness, thickness, durability, and snap of a deck.

By the time you got into the game, there is basically only two types of stock from the USPCC. But there was a time not too distant in the past where there were much more varieties of stock, and many of those decks are still available. There was a wide range of performance characteristics in these different stocks. And even today, there are marked, quantifiable differences between standard stock and Bee stock that you think are so exactly the same.

Ask a card mechanic if the difference in stock is important. Richard Turner, perhaps the preeminent card mechanic, works exclusively with only Bee stock. Ask a magician if the stock is important when trying to palm a card, or get a break in a deck. Ask a cardist if stock is important when springing cards or performing certain cuts.

Of course, as a deck designer, you don't give a crap unless it affects your production cost and your bottom line. It just bugs me when people who are looked up to in their particular field (but aren't necessarily knowledgeable about the physical properties or performance aspects of playing cards) make ignorant or blanket statements about finish or stock. It tends to perpetuate the belief that these elements are no longer important, thus cheapening and marginalizing the fields of cardistry, magic, and card manipulation.

The thing that I appreciate about you, however, is that you (more so than other designers) seem to recognize there are specific groups of people out there with specific priorities. Its not just one homogenous group of sycophantic Jackson collectors out there blowing smoke up your ass ready to mindlessly gobble up whatever you pump out. Your core demographic will always be the card collector, ranging from casual to hardcore. But it does seem like you're also going to try to accommodate the card players or cardists, or other groups as well, so kudos to those efforts. But this is why I'm also so disappointed you dismissed the importance of stock the way you did.

Getting back to the topic, I think the real reason this tuck box question was asked is in its relation to the escalating cost of custom playing cards. The more blinged out the tuck box, the more expensive the deck, and the greater the beating our wallets take. I think any good designer can make a great tuck box with or without embossing, foils, die-cuts, serial numbering, or any other bells and whistles. But the fancier tucks draw more attention and are an additional source of profit for designers, so this is what we're going to continue to see. A good analogy is the automobile industry. Ford, Honda, and Mercedes have a much higher profit margin from their premium models than their base models.

Ok I don't mind going,

I only assumed the line of conversation of stock only pertained to what was available at this time. Not what has been available in the past 100+ years.


As for what is available at this moment and what USPCC produces now for customs and also casinos my blah blah was exactly accurate. I stood on the casino printing floor at USPCC with plugs in my ears and chatted with the head press man and he explained to me that there is really no difference in the stock it self. Sure there may have been one 30, 50, 100 years ago but I wasn't talking about years ago I was talking about the here and now.

No where did I say I "don't give a crap" I only voiced what my focus was. Also, you sure do jump to conclusions to call me a ignorant, bottom lined, uknowledgable, rookie that doesn't know anything about card stock or their physical molecular properties.

Just because I don't pull a Don Boyer and recite my knowledge of the entire history of card stock and card production doesn't mean I don't know, give me a little bit of slack. My response was put together and conveyed in a constructive manner not in a way that you paint it to be.

I only work with the tools that I have at hand and at this point in time in the world of card production at USPCC there aren't the plethora of stocks and finishes available to me. Not any type of toxic finish with the choice of any fabric applicator, I have one biodegradable, child friendly and also digestible, non toxic finish to choose from and a embossed or flat steel roller to press my cards with.

Back to the topic:

The tuck case is absolutely the most expensive part of the production of a deck only because there are no changes you can make to the cards themselves. With the added factor of USPCC outsourcing most of their custom tucks makes the mark up even higher. That is why I found my own manufacturer for the LTD Independence tucks. Even at the basic level of the cards themselves EPCC and USPCC are about the same cost of production. The added benefit of EPCC is that I have a little more flexibility of quantities.

To finish this off I promise that when I create my first cardist / magician deck (Tally Ho cough cough) It will be focused at the non collector and for those who wear out a deck in a half hour like the Richard Turners of the world. BUTTTTTT it will be done with only the stocks and finishes that are available to me now, not some magical half smooth half embossed toxic Jerry's Nugget mixture.

[Sparkz]

I think you need to strike a balance, yes I come at if from more of a collectors point of view and pretty much everyone understands that if you are a "User" of said deck as opposed to a "Collector" your opinion will vary, BUT, I still contend that a lot of collectors, myself included, go the multiple deck route or a variation of it.

There is no denying that some decks are desirable just because of the beautiful work that went into the tuck design and presentation, but personally, I'm a bit disappointed when the "Deck" didn't get as much attention as the tuck and vice versa. I may not be a magician or cardist, but my admiration of a deck doesn't stop with the packaging, when someone asks about a deck in my collection while visiting or whatever, It's great to have an open deck to show that it's not just a fancy box.

So, In answer to the question, it's a combination of what's already been said, but I do believe, as I said earlier, you need to strike a balance between the two.

[Bikefanatic]

You probably wouldn't notice a tuck is embossed from afar unless you see it closely or if light hits it. I think it's the color used on the decks and the artwork on it that matters most. Of course the deck inside. There's plenty of decks where the tuck is very nice but cards are standard (Griffin). That's what I don't want.

[MagikFingerz]

All this Blah Blah about there being different cards stocks is really bunk as Bee and Aristocrat are the same exact stock just compressed at different weights.

snip

snip

All that other stuff aside, the point sinjin was making is that even though the stock is the same the compression DOES make a significant difference. Maybe not as much as when the stock actually was different, but still significant. I have no doubt that you know about this stuff, Jackson, but I can easily see people who don't misunderstand the above statement as "it makes no difference". Though I guess that's on them and not you, because the statement IS correct. Madison supposedly trying out X amounts of stocks and finishes for his deck was ridiculous even before USPCC cut down on their options.

[rjtomlinson1977]

Personally I think a tuck case is your best chance to make a great first impression. If you have a crap tuck nobody is going to care what's inside (even if you have the best design ever).
As far as price is concerned, I have a radical idea that could give you the best of both worlds. Instead of having tucks printed by USPCC or their 3rd party vendor... get tucks printed by your own 3rd party vendor. For playing cards there's only a few compaines that can reach the quality of USPCC but for packaging there's 1000s of companies that can do luxury packaging. When you have 1000s of companies that can produce amazing packaging I'm sure you can find better priced alternatives. Persnonally I've been in contact with a few just toying around with the idea... but I think it could be done. Maybe things would be different... yes, but different can be better. For example, get your cards produced by USPCC and have them only cello wrap the cards themselves. Have a 3rd party produce the tucks. Once you have the tucks and cards assembled you're good to go. For added protection cello wrap again. Or maybe if you provided the custom tucks to USPCC they can assemble and wrap from there. Who knows?
As far as the Kickstarter breakdown in costs... don't forget KS and Amazon gets roughly 10%. So, for even a $10 deck they're getting $1. But I don't agree with the $6 per deck shipping. That's way over inflated. For example mailing two decks isn't much more than mailing one deck (postage cost) and packaging doesn't amount to much when bought in bulk. But this is a whole different topic... sorry for drifting.

[sinjin7]

Ok I don't mind going,

I only assumed the line of conversation of stock only pertained to what was available at this time. Not what has been available in the past 100+ years.

As for what is available at this moment and what USPCC produces now for customs and also casinos my blah blah was exactly accurate. I stood on the casino printing floor at USPCC with plugs in my ears and chatted with the head press man and he explained to me that there is really no difference in the stock it self. Sure there may have been one 30, 50, 100 years ago but I wasn't talking about years ago I was talking about the here and now.

No where did I say I "don't give a crap" I only voiced what my focus was. Also, you sure do jump to conclusions to call me a ignorant, bottom lined, uknowledgable, rookie that doesn't know anything about card stock or their physical molecular properties.

This thread has been hijacked enough, I'm not starting a flame war. I sent you a PM.

[rousselle]

So, I've gone on record elsewhere on these forums stating that, in general, I was far less concerned with the tuck case than I was with the contents. For me, the tuck case was just window-dressing.

But, then Uusi came out with a deck (Bohemia) that used the same linen card stock for the tuck cases that were used for the cards they contained. I found that the very feel of the tuck seemed to accent the experience of handling the cards themselves. These was no wacky embossing or foil hot stamping... it was just that change in stock from "glossy cover" to "linen card" that changed the very essence of the deck. To get to the deck, you had to go through the case, and the case was... something different.

This trick was repeated with similar effect by a couple Ellusionist decks (Daniel Madison Somethings, if I recall correctly).

Then came the velour-like stock for the Medallions deck by Theory11. Mmmm. Scrumptious. It turns out that the Medallions decks themselves are really not much different from Artisans (which I prefer), but the tuck case was something else. And I began to wish the cards were better, to live up to the promise of the tuck. I began to wish my favorite decks came in a tuck like that.

I think my conversion to "the tuck case is part of the art and experience of the deck" was completed recently with my near simultaneous acquisition of the Oracle deck by Chris Ovdiyenko and the Sherlock Holmes series by Jackson Robinson (who posted his own views above.) I opened the Oracle first. The outside was elegantly illustrated to represent the deck inside, with embossed copper foil to highlight the experience. But then you opened the tuck, and inside...

Whoa.

Now, I already knew that I was going to like the deck inside. I'd seen the illustrations on the project updates. But the interior of the tuck case itself made it clear beyond any shadow of any doubt that the designer of this deck was in complete control of my experience in handling these cards. The inside said, "I am a well appointed home for an awesome set of cards. Welcome to this home."

And the Sherlock Holmes decks? Yeah. That. I was being greeted in the foyer of a home where distinguished playing cards reside. The very personality of those tuck designs spoke volumes about the personalities of the decks they enveloped.

Like ryzellon above, I'm a collector who opens his decks. I love to play with these cards, to shuffle and deal and practice a few flourishes and fans. For the most part, the tuck case used to just be a holder to keep my decks separated from one another. But as more thought has been put into them, I now see the tuck cases differently. They aren't just holders; they are homes. For me, they have become a part of the playing card experience.

So, yeah. I don't need a great tuck case to enjoy a great deck of cards. But a great tuck case enhances the experience of the cards as a whole.