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Ive decided to do this P & S post thing because I feel like we have reached a point in the card world where we need to do it.

I have thought of all the BS that the main 5/6 companies have given us in the past year and want to know what you agree with and any solutions to get around it. (For those who dont know, the top companies being Theory11, Ellusionist, D&D, The Blue Crown, HOPC and possiby CARC.) All you need to do is copy the list below and fill in the things these companies are doing wrong.

Copy this:

T11 -
E -
D&D -
TBC -
HOPC -

Other thoughts -

These are currently the main problems I have seen so far:

T11 - Lack of customization and creativity
E - Too many colour changes in already existing decks, only releasing limited decks as 'buy 12 get 1 free' offers
D&D - Lack of creativity and quality
TBC - Lack of 'decent' new decks
HOPC - Colour changes

Other thoughts - Outrageous KS prices for int. backers, outrageous Aloys prices

If you could all chip in your thoughts, we can decide on how to get round the BS. Thanks!

I don't have time to do a proper post right now, but I just want to suggest that we include positive things as well to avoid this being a purely negative post.

Are we talking about decks solely? Or do we also include information on customer service, shipment, etc?

JokerzGamez wrote: D&D - Lack of creativity and quality

I personally don't see the point with lack of quality with D&D. I think we could argue about creativity a lot but all the decks I own that have the D&D Logo on it have a pretty good quality.

I think there is too much misleading info put out by these companies. TBC being the main offender but the rest do similar things. I don't want to call them outright liars as the wording they use always seem to have a loop hole

Theory 11
Probems: Horrific over-hype, lack of transparency over "limited" numbers, rehashing boring color changes, lack of creatifvity with non-custom court cards (and I don't consider recolored courts custom), non-premium Aristocrat stock.
Positives: Good customer service, awesome tuck boxes, reasonable prices, palatable shipping rates, free points system.

Ellusionist
Problems: Boring tuck boxes, rehashing boring color changes, terrible Black Club Membership rip-off, too much Madison, expensive shipping rates, the strategy of "buy a brick, get a free limited deck".
Positives: Usually full customization, premium casino-grade Bee stock on many decks, transparency with production numbers

Dan $ Dave
Problems: Horrific over-hype, lack of transparency over "limited" numbers, misrepresentations or outright lies about reprinting decks, too high prices, ridiculous shipping rates, rehashing boring color changes, Brad Fulton, selling too much pretentious fluff other than playing cards (we don't care about overpriced lotions, nail clippers, hats, bookends, etc...), that damn attic where they keep finding more "limited" prodicts, sycophantic fanboys that rabidly defend them no matter what the twins do, did I mention the overhype and lies?
Positives: Innovators in blending cardistry with magic, good customer service, S&M v.2 and Fantastique decks

The Blue Crown
Problems: Servers that crash with every new "limited" release, misrepresentations and lies about limited decks (eg: Black and Gold Crowns), direct selling of "limited" decks that undercut collectors that bought large amounts of other products to acquire these "limited" decks, lack of innovation and playing card diversity - what new deck have they created other than the Crown series? Just Altruism so they're just a two-trick pony.
Positives: Free monthly video from Alex Pandrea, Blue Crown Luxury Edition decks.

House of Playing Cards
Problems: Weak line of playing cards, lack of innovation and design, too high prices (see London 2012 decks), affiliation with Blue Crown, they're basically irrelevant right now in the world of custom playing cards.
Positives: Since they can't sell their overpriced decks, they usually blow them out with good discount sales a couple of times a year.

We can list the problems all we want, but things won't change. Why? Because these questionable to shady practices make them money, and that's the bottom line and all they care about. Fanboys and addicted collectors will keep them in business so they won't feel any compelling reason to change.

I love how Brad Fulton is just listed as a problem without any details

Very good list, sinjin.

sinjin7 wrote:

We can list the problems all we want, but things won't change. Why? Because these questionable to shady practices make them money, and that's the bottom line and all they care about. Fanboys and addicted collectors will keep them in business so they won't feel any compelling reason to change.

I was starting a "what's the purpose of this thread? To summarize what we've been talking and complaining about in every thread concerning decks released from these companies? Are we gonna send them a very stern email with all our observations or something?" post/rant.
But that last paragraph summarizes it perfectly so I'll leave it at that.

Eoghann wrote:

sinjin7 wrote:

We can list the problems all we want, but things won't change. Why? Because these questionable to shady practices make them money, and that's the bottom line and all they care about. Fanboys and addicted collectors will keep them in business so they won't feel any compelling reason to change.

I was starting a "what's the purpose of this thread? To summarize what we've been talking and complaining about in every thread concerning decks released from these companies? Are we gonna send them a very stern email with all our observations or something?" post/rant.
But that last paragraph summarizes it perfectly so I'll leave it at that.

Could be useful for new collectors, I guess. And airing our frustrations can't make things worse, so on the off-chance that someone from said companies actually reads it and takes action, why not?

Doesn't help much if the same venting goes on every time the companies are mentioned. Time to go old school and nail a manifesto to their door. Worked for Martin Luther.
Or at least gotta hit their twitters and tell'em to stop dicking around.

Thing is, I don't find myself resenting any of them. So it makes me wonder. I have a handful of decks from each company and I'm perfectly fine with that. I only buy what I like and I haven't had a single problem. I don't feel cheated or anything. If I wanted EVERYTHING in existence I can understand and would probably be in the same situation.

I get the impression the more vocal ones are the ones that want/need to have every deck. And when the greedy dicks make them jump through hoops, and lie and deceive to squeeze their money out, they're like: "why are you forcing me to spend my money on a purple/pink/limited deck?!....I'll take two, here's my credit card you jerks."

Again, I have a medium sized, selective collection so I probably can't sympathize.

sinjin7 wrote: House of Playing Cards
Problems: Weak line of playing cards, lack of innovation and design, too high prices (see London 2012 decks), affiliation with Blue Crown, they're basically irrelevant right now in the world of custom playing cards.
Positives: Since they can't sell their overpriced decks, they usually blow them out with good discount sales a couple of times a year.

I don't think Emmanuel, Russell and other HOPC alumni, including myself, would appreciate being generalized as part of a weak line of Cards that lack innovation and design. I know I don't!

Thanks, Randy

Looks like it's more problems than positives. I only collect one brand so . . . . . . . As far as the online places/stores I buy my cards from, no serious problems.

Eoghann wrote:Doesn't help much if the same venting goes on every time the companies are mentioned. Time to go old school and nail a manifesto to their door. Worked for Martin Luther.
Or at least gotta hit their twitters and tell'em to stop dicking around.

Thing is, I don't find myself resenting any of them. So it makes me wonder. I have a handful of decks from each company and I'm perfectly fine with that. I only buy what I like and I haven't had a single problem. I don't feel cheated or anything. If I wanted EVERYTHING in existence I can understand and would probably be in the same situation.

I get the impression the more vocal ones are the ones that want/need to have every deck. And when the greedy dicks make them jump through hoops, and lie and deceive to squeeze their money out, they're like: "why are you forcing me to spend my money on a purple/pink/limited deck?!....I'll take two, here's my credit card you jerks."

Again, I have a medium sized, selective collection so I probably can't sympathize.

I feel the exact same way. I buy what I like, nobody's putting a gun to my head.

RandyButterfield wrote:

sinjin7 wrote:
I don't think Emmanuel, Russell and other HOPC alumni, including myself, would appreciate being generalized as part of a weak line of Cards that lack innovation and design. I know I don't!

Thanks, Randy

I think they were referring to HOPC's in house decks like the NOCs , etc. But then again when was the last time HOPC launched a new deck ? Been some time hasnt it ?? I need clipped wings to be produced soon !

RandyButterfield wrote:I don't think Emmanuel, Russell and other HOPC alumni, including myself, would appreciate being generalized as part of a weak line of Cards that lack innovation and design. I know I don't!

Thanks, Randy

This is a thread of our opinions of the main playing card companies, not individual designers. HOPC's line of current available decks are weak as a whole. I like your Ornate decks, but they are not in HOPC's roster of decks as they are no longer available. Any good will Russell had with his decks have been more than burned up by his and Adam's ignominious departure from the playing card community. Emmanuel's Curator deck is the only remaining noteworthy deck. One good deck amidst a sea of boring NOCs, boring recolored Verves, Lefty decks, and overpriced London decks they still can't get rid of makes for a weak line in my assessment.

Seb wrote: I feel the exact same way. I buy what I like, nobody's putting a gun to my head.

I do the same thing. I don't buy everything and I don't feel cheated, not even by D&D. I'll admit that lazy color changes might not be the greatest decks but if I like the design and the new color, then I'll buy it and if I don't like the deck anyways of I just don't like the way a deck looks with a new color, then I'll just pass it and wait for the next release.

Sinjin7 - Nice post. I myself have not gotten any of these decks from these manufactures. It's nice to see open and honest opinions. I love hearing stories about finding lost decks in an old warehouse somewhere. Anyone got any other opinions using the same format? But of course opinions are like A$$%07ES. Everyone has one. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It's just caring enough to let other people know how you feel...

I didn't like when HOPC reprinted the curator deck. They could have at least changed the tuck box on this "limited" deck.

I decided to stop patronizing D&D when they fooled me with the October deck.

chess wrote:I didn't like when HOPC reprinted the curator deck. They could have at least changed the tuck box on this "limited" deck.

I decided to stop patronizing D&D when they fooled me with the October deck.

What did dand do to the October deck, I must have missed something

walrus wrote:

chess wrote:I didn't like when HOPC reprinted the curator deck. They could have at least changed the tuck box on this "limited" deck.

I decided to stop patronizing D&D when they fooled me with the October deck.

What did dand do to the October deck, I must have missed something

The court cards are the same in each value.

phantom1412 wrote:

walrus wrote:

chess wrote:I didn't like when HOPC reprinted the curator deck. They could have at least changed the tuck box on this "limited" deck.

I decided to stop patronizing D&D when they fooled me with the October deck.

What did dand do to the October deck, I must have missed something

The court cards are the same in each value.

The front and back of the tuck is the same. Two ad cards, zero gaffs (are they a magic shop or not?). Subtle one-way backs. One of the jokers is slightly darker on the back, and lighter on the front than the rest of the deck, because they printed it backwards (same with the ad cards).

Ben Taylor wrote:

phantom1412 wrote:

walrus wrote:

chess wrote:I didn't like when HOPC reprinted the curator deck. They could have at least changed the tuck box on this "limited" deck.

I decided to stop patronizing D&D when they fooled me with the October deck.

What did dand do to the October deck, I must have missed something

The court cards are the same in each value.

The front and back of the tuck is the same. Two ad cards, zero gaffs (are they a magic shop or not?). Subtle one-way backs. One of the jokers is slightly darker on the back, and lighter on the front than the rest of the deck, because they printed it backwards (same with the ad cards).

I think lately Dan and Dave has become more of a designer outlet than anything lately. Their products are very specific and their D&D design is everywhere.

Theory11 + Decks are produced well. Great tuck boxes. Decent shipping rates. Straight forward sales. Simple points club. The wire is pretty cool.
Theory11 - Faces could be more custom (though different colour faces as far as I am concerned is at least a small effort).

Ellusionist + Great deck designs overall. Paypal is offered.
Ellusionist - Too many buy this many and we will ship you this as well. Seriously 4 different rounders? 4 LTDs?

D&D + Simple card design. Prices are semi reasonable. Shipping at least to me is not bad. Customer service is fantastic. Artofplay.com is nice.
D&D - A lot of hype over releases. 50 dollar hats? (or more I think)

Blue Crown + I'm having a hard time coming up with a positive... Sunday Brunch can be cool
Blue Crown - No new releases. Customer relations is poor.

HOPC + A good assortmant of decks. I like the NOCs. I didn't say we all like the NOCs but I do like them. Stock and finish are usually mentioned.
HOPC - Releases are few and far between.

Not sure why no one included Conjuring Arts but I think they can be counted as they released quite a bit here recently.

Conjuring Arts + Creative use of foreign company for production. Decks are fairly standard but unique. Shipping is reasonable and not hidden.
Conjuring Arts - Creative use of foreign company for production... Decks are fairly standard.

So I'm not quite so hard on these guys but I think what I've said is honest to me.

Devo did the same freaking thing with his Exquisite deck, sane 3 court cards for every suit and he made it a lefty deck too!

vmagic wrote:Devo did the same freaking thing with his Exquisite deck, sane 3 court cards for every suit and he made it a lefty deck too!

I don't know his reasoning behind the repeating courts, but he said that he made it a lefty deck so that it would produce good looking fans both front and back, which IMO it does.