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Hi Everyone,

I've just finished designing my first deck (hopefully the first of many) and I'm putting the finishing touches on a Kickstarter campaign to help fund the production. I consider the designs more or less finished, but I'd love to get some feedback from this community (I wish I'd found this forum sooner). I'm not opposed to making small design changes at this point, but large changes I'd have to seriously think about.

So here it is, my first custom designed deck, Metropol: Nox.





















I wanted to keep the design for this deck clean, and straightforward. Inspired by a modern design trend, the deck is based on bright high-contrast colours, no shading and typographic elements. I wanted to design something that stood out for a lot of the designs being produced on Kickstarter. Whether this decision will pay off or not, is up to the Kickstarter community to decide.

I was originally planning on launching the campaign tomorrow (Sept. 9) to be one of the first Canadian Kickstarter campaigns out there, but I'm going to continue polishing everything for the next day or to in order to make sure it's perfect. I'd rather wait a couple days and make sure everything is perfect, than to rush it out the door for an arbitrary deadline

Anyway, I'd love to hear what you guys think!

Looks pretty cool

Not much to it but I'm down with that. Colors are a bit aggressive , however I'm in for 1 or 2.

Aside from the court cards, I love everything else about the deck. The courts look like flash cards to me (sorry).

I, too, like everything but the courts. The courts might make this a no-go for me.

Where are you having it printed? What would shipping be to the US? (Or, would you make all of North America one shipping zone?)

Best of success to you. If the courts end up with some kind of image to them that matches your other design elements, I'll be all over this deck.

Yes I agree that the courts right now make it a no pledge for me

I also like the concept but the courts are definitely a bit underwhelming right now. Perhaps you could do silhouettes of the traditional courts to keep it simple going with your theme, but keep the potential customers happy with an actual court image?

charlie

I think it has potential, but the courts are killing it. While I like the clean look of the rest of the decks, the courts seem kind of like lazy design to me. Kickstarter still has mostly an American customer base. You'll want to make sure you can get the cards to the USA for a reasonable price. You might want to find an American company to ship the cards locally, and have the rest sent to you. If the cards are made at USPCC, you don't want to have them shipped across the border twice.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I really appreciate it! I struggled with the court cards and I think that's pretty obvious What's interesting though is after about 40+ designs, the ones I posted here got the best reaction from everyone I had shown the designs too. To be fair though, none of those people were card collectors.

To hear that those cards alone are turning so many people away from the deck is disheartening, but it's exactly the type of feedback I was looking for! I'm going to take the court cards back to the drawing board and hopefully you guys are much happier with the results

Thanks again!

Great to hear that the courts will be improved.

This is not the kind of deck that I focus on, but a strong and well-executed design is always appealing.

And I do like this design; aside from the courts, it is cohesive and well done and I'd definitely be in for a couple if the courts end up strengthening the strong but minimalist graphic nature that's already present of the rest of the deck.

OtsegoDoom wrote:To hear that those cards alone are turning so many people away from the deck is disheartening, but it's exactly the type of feedback I was looking for! I'm going to take the court cards back to the drawing board and hopefully you guys are much happier with the results

Be careful. You're in danger of creating something that people will not only like but will pay money for.

rousselle wrote:Be careful. You're in danger of creating something that people will not only like but will pay money for.

I think I can live with that! I hope to have something new to show in a day or two.

glad you're considering a change!

I was impressed with the sleek design up until I saw the courts myself ^^

So I went back to the drawing board for a couple days and I've chosen a new direction for the court cards. I think this new direction fits in with the rest of the design work a lot better.

This design is not finished. While I'm happy with the direction it's taken, I still think I need to do a bit more work on it. I just wanted to get it in front of you guys before I went too far.

There's two variations to take a look at. Please let me know what you think!

To answer a couple of the questions I missed earlier:

This deck will be printed by USPCC. Being based in Canada I'm realizing the complications of having the deck printed in the US, and then having it sent to me, only to send out the majority of the decks back to the US. I'm looking into what options I have, because I want to keep shipping as cheap as possible for you guys.

The colours in the renders I've been showing are a little brighter than the actual printed cards will be. I printed a few samples at home (on regular paper) and I've gotta say they look pretty slick. Is there any place you guys use to print sample decks? I'd kinda like to have a deck printed if possible before I go through the whole USPCC process.

Anyway, I think those are the only questions I missed. If there are any others, please let me know.

Thanks!

Woah that's intense! I love the idea! Very bold.

Perhaps the crowns can be a little bit smaller and more apart from each other to tell them apart better. I prefer option B.

Would you consider making the bars a little thinner and add a few more bars to define the crowns a bit more?


Edit: I will surely burn at the stake for saying this in public but, a word of advice:

DON'T go USPCC just because everyone is telling you to or that's the atmosphere you perceive. Really do your research. Printing with USPCC does not guarantee a single thing much less a successful project. Despite the fact that I'm really digging this deck, the concept is definitely out there, which puts it even more at risk. If you go with USPCC, plan for the minimum and build upon that. Consider every possibility.

Before you even consider launching the project, have some samples printed from other places. MPC (makeplayingcards), customizedplayingcards.com and Cartamundi are a few examples. Have some decks printed with them on the 310gsm card stock with a standard finish. Look for a friend or someone who practices magic and cardistry, have them test it extensively with shuffles, flourishes, etc. You need proof that other companies can compete with USPCC's much famed "standard".

Unless they have their own forest filled with free range, conflict free, hot stone massaged, irrigated with natural spring water trees..they're more than likely getting the paper from the same place everyone else is. USPCC and Bicycle are just brands.

Going with USPCC will only satisfy a very vocal crowd and the new, naive collectors that listen to them. Have confidence in your artwork.

Sorry if I sound a little bitter. It's just that a lot of good projects have recently failed because they couldn't reach funding in time. And they were all "printed by USPCC". Now reading a project title with "Bicycle deck printed by USPCC" just irks me.

Like Eoghann, I do like your new courts and how they fit with your theme. I'm not convinced about the thinner bar idea offered, as part of the style is the strength of the lines. May I suggest the Jack's height (near the edges) is a little reduced - I just feel that design is a little too competitive with the Kings. However I definitely agree that the courts should be little smaller than option B.

I do differ with the advice regarding card printers though - but this depends on what your goals here are. If you are happy producing a good deck for a lower cost, please go ahead with Eoghann's suggestions. However I, and most others here, think of USPCC's output as a higher quality (generally) than anyone else.

The flip side of that coin however is that quality comes with a higher cost and much greater minimum orders. A USPCC deck will get a greater number of purchasers/backers from the card community than the same deck from another printer, however whether the increased cost makes the process unviable is a different matter.

I like your design, and would definitely be interested in a few(3-6) if the decks are USPCC printed (which is all that my collection is) at a reasonable price. Either way, the design is great - best of luck with it.

Before I start this post, I just want to say that while I try to be as objective as possible in this post, in text form it is easy to misinterpret a counter-argument as hostile. So um, just try to read this with a smile on your face, or something

Eoghann wrote: Before you even consider launching the project, have some samples printed from other places. MPC (makeplayingcards), customizedplayingcards.com and Cartamundi are a few examples. Have some decks printed with them on the 310gsm card stock with a standard finish. Look for a friend or someone who practices magic and cardistry, have them test it extensively with shuffles, flourishes, etc. You need proof that other companies can compete with USPCC's much famed "standard".

They're the standard for more reasons than "fame", any card handler can tell you that. There ARE competitive options out there, but the ones you mentioned are not and most people know that by now.

Eoghann wrote:Unless they have their own forest filled with free range, conflict free, hot stone massaged, irrigated with natural spring water trees..they're more than likely getting the paper from the same place everyone else is. USPCC and Bicycle are just brands.

If you think it's about the paper, you're thinking about it all wrong. It's about the manufacturing process, and it stands to reason that the biggest company has the best equipment for that. Bicycle is a brand, but USPCC is a manufacturer. THE manufacturer.

Eoghann wrote:Going with USPCC will only satisfy a very vocal crowd and the new, naive collectors that listen to them. Have confidence in your artwork.

While I believe that to be an overly cynical description of those people (biased by your own thoughts on USPCC), I can't dispute whether it's true or not. It is, however, true that a good number of people want decks printed by the USPCC, and it can be theorized that a kickstarter will have a bigger chance of succeeding with it. Like it or not, that's just how it is.

Eoghann wrote:Sorry if I sound a little bitter. It's just that a lot of good projects have recently failed because they couldn't reach funding in time. And they were all "printed by USPCC". Now reading a project title with "Bicycle deck printed by USPCC" just irks me.

I can agree on the "Bicycle" part, which irks me too because that IS "just a brand". But there have been several projects in the past that promised "the finest quality paper" and claims that the stock they were using was just as good as USPCC. While that may hold true for the paper itself, none of said projects have ever lived up to their claims when it came to the quality of the finished product. Even though they did pretty much the same "research" as what you outlined.

Hey no problem MF, I welcome the counter arguments .

After a good night's sleep, I think I'm more level headed. SOO here's a small list of pros and cons:

USPCC
- Guaranteed backers from the collector, cardist, illusionist community (does not guarantee a successful campaign).
- Their standard deck is widely accepted as "good enough". (Bicycle stock, air cushion finish, black liner inside each card). You can upgrade to higher end stocks and finishes as the campaign allows for it.
- Their minimum order for custom decks is 2,500; which already sets your campaign goal pretty high.
- As far as I know, USPCC will ship your decks in a palette to you free of charge.


Non-USPCC
- Most cardists and illusionists will be put off by this. Speaking for myself as a collector of cards, I don't care for the brand or printer as long as it's a good quality deck. I have a lot of non USPCC decks that are just phenomenal, and some USPCC decks that turned into complete duds (Pluma deck being a recent one, they handle like wet napkins).
- You will have to do extensive research and testing to find out if their base deck is as good as USPCC's standard.
- You can order a single deck and see for yourself, USPCC's proof decks costs a few thousand dollars I believe.
- They can print a minimum of one up to infinity. That alone means your campaign goal can be set pretty low, increasing your chances of a successful project (I've seen successful campaigns with goals as low as $1000).


Again, these are just opinions from all of us. All I ask for is that you really do your homework and go for what best fits your needs and your budget. Focus on your deck and don't jam in add-ons until the deck is covered.

Bottom line is: it's probably safer to go with USPCC, but it's definitely not cheap. Whichever road you take, go for the highest quality your budget allows.

Sorry I can't be more thorough, I'm very late for work. Later gators!

Nice list, Eoghann. I agree with most of it, just wanted to comment on/add to a few things.

Eoghann wrote: I have a lot of non USPCC decks that are just phenomenal, and some USPCC decks that turned into complete duds (Pluma deck being a recent one, they handle like wet napkins).

It's true that there are many discrepancies and the possibility of a bad printing job is always there. This is true for any manufacturer, and there can even be a bad batch within a single print run.

Eoghann wrote:- You can order a single deck and see for yourself, USPCC's proof decks costs a few thousand dollars I believe.
- They can print a minimum of one up to infinity. That alone means your campaign goal can be set pretty low, increasing your chances of a successful project (I've seen successful campaigns with goals as low as $1000).

Saying this is how it is for all other manufacturers is a pretty big claim. I'm sure many of them have very different pricings on prototype decks as well as minimum print runs. The problem with prototype decks though, and this is probably true for USPCC as well, is that printing one flawless deck is a lot easier than printing several thousand of them (we know of several cases where large print runs ordered by companies have been scrapped because it wasn't "just right", and I would assume they did make prototypes to see the end result before printing. Though this was mostly concerning to inks and designs). If the goal of a product sampling is only the quality, I believe it is best to just buy a deck from that manufacturer which has been printed in large (or the intended) quantities already.

Granted USPCC has more pros than cons; but the few cons it has are pretty big ones. Especially for small indie creators without an established fan base.

It's just this pattern of failed projects I've been seeing lately. I can't in good faith say "Yeah just go with USPCC and you'll be fine". Then if it fails we just shrug and "Hmm. Guess it wasn't meant to be. Let's see what else is on Kickstarter".

I apologize OstegoDoom if I'm painting a grim picture here. I'm not trying to jinx anything. I'm just attempting to emphasize how a project can't be taken lightly and every detail and procedure needs to be meticulously researched and planned out.

Hey Guys, I definitely appreciate the feedback, even if it is a little off topic from the card designs. The people here obviously have a lot more experience with this stuff than I do, so it's great to hear opinions for and against all the options. I'm still leaning towards USPCC at the moment, BUT I'm going to be getting a couple sample decks printed from some of the places Eoghamm suggested, if for no other reason it will give me something new to sit on my desk.

I've done another pass at the court cards and made the symbols smaller, with a larger separation between the two sides. (Good call on that one). I've also revised the Jack to make it a little less fancy.



I'm still going to tweak the designs a bit, but I'm definitely getting closer. What do you guys think?

Looking great!

Looks good, can't wait to back it. And as a fellow Canadian I say let the Americans pay shipping for once. They also get free shipping and we end up paying more as result, because obviously the cost of shipping is factored in to the cost of the cards and then Canadian and international customers get charged more. Anyhow, if we can pay all this extra shipping every time then they can pay shipping for once!

Thanks guys! I'm really happy with this new design, and I think it fits the look of the deck much better.

I've got a question about perks. What do people think about all the offerings of stuff like posters, t-shirts, uncut sheets, etc? Is there a demand for those, or do you guys just want the cards? I want to ensure this campaign goes through with as little hassle as possible so I'm inclined to just keep the perks as straightforward as possible. What do you think?

I would just go for the cards. Maybe a poster.

Uncuts, t-shirts, and coins seem to be pretty common.

I like coins.

I like back rubs from 21 year old hotties....

badpete69 wrote:I like back rubs from 21 year old hotties....

er...and coins?