UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

Hello everyone,
and best wishes for the new year! 

Big picture:
Together with an authentic Genoese guy - I have started working on a very particular project. I am reinterpreting the iconography of the traditional Genovesi cards, which are a specific kind of Italian regional cards. The courts are quite fresh, different from the Bicycle standard, so I am having a lot of fun.


I am showing some images that might help you understand the process. The style chosen is clean and modern, a blend of Bold and Blue Jay Dentistry.


I wanted to share these novelties with you and to hear your thoughts about the layout. 
The original Genovesi cards don't feature the indexes, but we want to add them. After some historical research, we have found some very particular models and decided to take inspiration from them.


In the comparison below, do you prefer the right, center, or left queen? I would love to hear your thoughts. 

Have a great weekend

Elettra


P.S. Any thoughts about Patreon? What's your point of view on the platform?

Liking this a lot so far. The modern take on something vintage is absolutely beautifully represented.

Oh and of the three...I think I'll say middle. The border is nicely in keeping with the original, with just the minimal addition of an index in the corner for better usability.

Oh, nice! I always welcome new perspectives on European patterns. I'd say the middle one but with a way lot smaller texts.

Excited to see where this goes. I like the middle one.

Very nice! I was looking at local regional playing cards that don't have the traditional indices (A,K,Q,J) but indices regional/local to that place. For example old traditional German playing cards had A,K,D,B. I'd love to get some of those unique regional indices with modern art.

I prefer either of left or middle Queens. I'm gravitated more towards the middle Queen.... good luck and looking forward to this!!

All the best for the new year as well.

I'm always very happy to see creators taking inspiration from their home.
I would have wished for a middle ground regarding the art style though. As you know, I like your work but this feels kinda too similar for me to Bold and Blue Jay Dentistry.
Sometimes artists fall into the trap of finding an art style they are very comfortable with and stop pushing themselves and/or exploring new genres/styles. Just a thought of mine; sparked by what I see when I roam your instagram profile. Especially the pre card posts show stuff that I would love to see transfered to your playing cards.
If this style makes you happy, then of course stick with it and embrace it.

For the choice: the left one is my favorite by far. You don't see this approach on modern cards. The font might need a second thought; the Ó of the jack and the D of the queen appear quite similar at first glance, this might slow down gameplay or lead to mistakes during game nights.

Love it! Drop me a DM on Instagram about Patreon... there’s a big reason we chose not to use it as unless you’re just using it for digital content it quite clearly infringes Italian tax law... but it’s far too boring to go into here.

I looked at the Queens again and tbh, I now like the left Queen more. It is unique and nicely matches to those from your historical research you did. Would The left queen layout make be a nice hat tip to the old historical cards

Love the middle but left has such a unique historical look which I'd rather you copy.

Thank you all for sharing your point of view! We started from 6 different layouts and the almost univocity of your opinion is very clarifying.

@masagin303 I was fearing so much the readability of those texts on the poker size, that I didn't realize they were even too big. Thank you! I was blind.

As noticed by @Harvonsgard, the "O" and "D" - capital letters - tend to be similar. Regardless of the final font, we are likely to add the accent on the "O" also for this reason. Although I don't dislike the one used so far, I was planning to consider the type thoroughly, later. Usability is such a crucial point. A keen eye, @Harvonsgard

As for the style... This is a more complicated issue. I feel that every new project inevitably ends up being an excuse for learning something new. This is pretty evident comparing Pinocchio, Florentia, and Bold: they are so different that they don't even look made by the same "artist" (such a presumptuous word) from some points of view.
As concerns the Blue Jay Dentistry and the Genovesi decks, these commissions came with specific requests style-wise. Different situation. I can say that I have selected the specific collab proposals for many other challenging and stimulating aspects, anyway.

Side note: I am also starting (slowly) to work on a transformation deck, a personal project. This is going to be quite different if I'll ever finish it.

Okay, forgive me for being so wordy. Being too changeable is something I think a lot about, to tell the truth.

I must correct myself. History is getting back in the game!

Yes, the left version requires some patience for being appreciated.

Elettra wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:10 pm Side note: I am also starting (slowly) to work on a transformation deck, a personal project. This is going to be quite different if I'll ever finish it.

Yes, yes, a times YES!

Regarding art style; I suspected something like that with Blue Jay Dentistry.
I didn't know it was requested for this project, too. Then you have of course no other choice.
I can't wait to see what you pull out the hat for the back design.

Elettra wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:15 pm
Yes, the left version requires some patience for being appreciated.

Very good point. I slept on it and this morning looked at the 3 choices and I definitely liked the left version and I still do. However again.... game play/usability thing comes in to play. In an example scenario -- game play when players hold multiple cards, if those held cards not separated or held a wee bit apart, would not recognize if the card is a Q (in this case D) or some other numbered/face card. Might need that split second to look at the card to figure out due to the index being within the pip.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:03 pm I can't wait to see what you pull out the hat for the back design.

Me too...

GandalfTheWhite wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:06 pmHowever again.... game play/usability thing comes in to play. In an example scenario -- game play when players hold multiple cards, if those held cards not separated or held a wee bit apart, would not recognize if the card is a Q (in this case D) or some other numbered/face card. Might need that split second to look at the card to figure out due to the index being within the pip.

Yes, the outer mini index is very useful. On the other hand, I must confess that even those new capital letters puzzle me a bit... So while playing, I would probably end up looking at the illustration of the court in any case
I am joking of course. Even if I am very used to "K", "Q", "J" and it's a hard habit to break/modify, it's about learning 3 new letters.
By the way, we discussed a lot also about the usability of the cards for left-handed people. We found out that most left-handed people fan with the left hand, but in the same manner as the right-handed people. This might be silly but I had never got my head around it.

Elettra wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:36 am We found out that most left-handed people fan with the left hand, but in the same manner as the right-handed people. This might be silly but I had never got my head around it.

Family members are left-handed. They all fan the other way. We always need four corner indexed card for gameplay, which is a pity because most of the beautiful modern custom playing cards have only two corner indices.
I don't know if they are indeed in the minority or if the majority of left-handed folks simply adapted.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:55 pm

Elettra wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:36 am We found out that most left-handed people fan with the left hand, but in the same manner as the right-handed people. This might be silly but I had never got my head around it.

Family members are left-handed. They all fan the other way. We always need four corner indexed card for gameplay, which is a pity because most of the beautiful modern custom playing cards have only two corner indices.
I don't know if they are indeed in the minority or if the majority of left-handed folks simply adapted.

3 of my family members are lefties. They do both depending on the game and the number of cards. Most of the time, they adapt to the rightie dominance just like they've been doing since pre-history I believe.

I really like the left card since this is a culturally related deck. That's part of the charm and my interest for these decks. Lorenzo did a reproduction of the Carte Diroche for his region and it is lovely. So keep the Indices in the pip as that's what makes the Genovesi unique from other decks.

Eric Lee wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:30 am So keep the Indices in the pip as that's what makes the Genovesi unique from other decks.

I can't find any Genovesi pattern with indices in the pip. I think those other referenced images don't represent Genovesi cards, they were mentioned only as an inspiration for adding indices to cards which didn't originally have them.

https://www.wopc.co.uk/italy/genovesi

The original Genovesi cards don't feature the indexes, but we want to add them. After some historical research, we have found some very particular models

This could be why we can't find them in general sites. Could have been just a one off or just in a few particular decks. It would be cool to have some background info on the details of the courts and where they are from; since info is hard to find.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:55 pm Family members are left-handed. They all fan the other way. We always need four corner indexed card for gameplay, which is a pity because most of the beautiful modern custom playing cards have only two corner indices.
I don't know if they are indeed in the minority or if the majority of left-handed folks simply adapted.

I tried a couple of four corners indexed layouts, but they don't look as nice as expected. The captions on the right just affect the balance of the whole card too much.
Anyway, this is something I am really willing to consider for future projects. Thanks for the info!

masagin303 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:54 am

Eric Lee wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:30 am So keep the Indices in the pip as that's what makes the Genovesi unique from other decks.

I can't find any Genovesi pattern with indices in the pip. I think those other referenced images don't represent Genovesi cards, they were mentioned only as an inspiration for adding indices to cards which didn't originally have them.

https://www.wopc.co.uk/italy/genovesi

The Genovese design doesn't feature indices at all. This a pity because such a relevant lack is very limiting as regards gameplay. This is why we decided to add the indices as a novelty, though looking back at other varied models with a historical feeling.

That index within the pip is from a deck De La Rue c. 1890, known as Pigmy Cards https://www.wopc.co.uk/delarue/pigmy
We are making a lot of research in general. Books, database, and 7bello - an Italian association focused on Italian playing cards - is giving a big help. All their publications are in Italian, sadly.
For example, I have now finished working on the Jack of clubs. The modern Genovese design shows a stylized flower on the chest of the court, but the oldies cards - dating back to when the cards were still one way - feature a bee instead of the flower. Same for many animals scattered throughout the deck, details that after the changeover to the double way model, have been lost or cut or changed enough to become nearly unrecognizable.
For the Jack of Clubs, again, we decided to modify the shape of the shield in order to make it more coherent with the Italian heraldry, adding a Genoese cross on top of it. I can share some details and references if you like. As far as I'm concerned, I am learning a lot of things.

Another thing we would love to do is adding also the knights and the major arcana - "trionfi" - to the deck. This is all to be seen anyway.

Eric Lee wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:30 am
3 of my family members are lefties. They do both depending on the game and the number of cards. Most of the time, they adapt to the rightie dominance just like they've been doing since pre-history I believe.

This is interesting, thanks for your insights. We should conduct an organized data collection and analysis, I guess.
I tried to make a couple of fans in one direction, in another, to hold them with one hand, and then with the other. The problem is that for some sort of things I am ambidextrous and I ended up feeling totally lost

I grew up with four corner indices present on all playing cards, I'm right handed, and I only use the top-right index during gameplay. Having indices only in the left corner is the same as having no indices for me. So I'd rather play with 4-index cards for practicality (or no index cards, which are much more beautiful).

Of the three alternatives presented, I prefer the look of the two with the frames.

Those unusual indices with the index inside the pip: One thing to think about (I'm sure you already have) is how the index appearance will change when you no longer have a pip in those corner positions. I mean it's easy for the ones shown in your example and in the historical cards in the picture (court cards and 10s), but it will be different for say a 2 or a 3 with conventional pip layout. So do you just put the number say in red on the white background in the same space on the card, or will you need to add a small suit index as well? I think I remember right that sprouts's Texas deck had this kind of index. But it's very unusual.

In the end, we opted for the middle version.

The one below is the Jack of Clubs / "O Sbiro de Scioî" in the Genoese dialect.




The shape of the shield has been modified to better fit the Italian model; the representations on it have been substituted with the so-called Saint George's Cross.

The bee on the chest, for its part, is a reference to the portrait officiel. The one in the middle is a modern Genoese card by Modiano and shows that the bee had been lost. Just out of curiosity, the Apis mellifera ligustica is considered the Italian bee par excellence; the fact that "ligustica" means "Ligurian" says a lot about the subspecies.




I am sharing also the King of Diamonds / "L’Òmmo de Dinæ". It's a special card to me.

The swan is a reference to Cycnus, a king of Liguria belonging to the Greek mythology.




There is still plenty of work to do, but I have been having an ever-present concern about printing these days. *Inaccurate statement: I'd better say in the last 6 months or so.
We might consider printing them at home and rounding the corners with scissors during the weekends

I love this. Very excited for this project. Thanks for sharing!

Elettra wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:40 am There is still plenty of work to do, but I have been having an ever-present concern about printing these days. *Inaccurate statement: I'd better say in the last 6 months or so.
We might consider printing them at home and rounding the corners with scissors during the weekends

Wouldn't be the first hand made deck I own .
Out of curiosity, what's the concern?

GandalfTheWhite wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:49 am I love this. Very excited about this project. Thanks for sharing!

Thank you!

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:52 pm Wouldn't be the first hand made deck I own .
Out of curiosity, what's the concern?

I don't even know where to start from. A couple of examples might help to communicate the concerns I am talking about.

Example no. 1
Preamble: the project is a combination of hand drawings, digital painting, and graphics. It has been made using different software (Illustrator + Photoshop) and every card has its own printing file. Total 110 printing files for this design.
After the troubled approval of a couple of files sent as examples, the 110 files are delivered. Everything smooth.
One month later, the company requires to save again all the 110 files changing the name of a spot color. I have a couple of theories about the occurrence.

Example no. 2
A piece of production is missing. The company doesn't correct the mistake or make amends, but just put us at the very end of the queue. Final delay of about 3+6 months.

Example no. 3
The digital proofs are unacceptable, pieces of the cards are missing. Furthermore, the design has been edited (!) for technical reasons. A long and time-consuming exchange of email and images follows.

The final result has always been good until this moment. Also, there is the possibility that I made some mistakes as well.
If you put together losses of work and time, waitings, and bad customer care, anyway, you will understand how unsatisfying and stressful the experience can be.

Hello there,

Opinion survey. Do you prefer top or bottom?


We have a back design, by the way. *The layout of the courts in the following images is not updated.

I think it would be neat if the red suits (hearts and diamonds) have the text in red, while the black suits (spades and clubs) have the text in black. Would make reverse fans look a bit better and somewhat improve readability. But I can see a case being made for consistency too, in which case black on all would probably be best.

for me. I like the contrast of red courts to black letters. E.g. E!'s Rockets feautures black indicies on all cards and I absolutely love it.

Back design could use some more fine details imo. The zig-zag border formed by the tiny squares is a dope feature. I like that a lot.