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Now available for preorder from Penguin Magic, traditionally cut thin crushed stock like the previous Bicycles. Circle Backs are one of my favorites! Ships Sept 15.



https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/13704

Meh, I have enough Ohio Tallies to last me a while.

so this is the same as the standard tallys just a different stock? i'll most likely still pick up one of each though cause i'm a completionist.. lol

Yes, indeed.

Edit: TL:DR for Vasta I'm about out of Ohio Tally-Ho circle backs and Penguin's Elite series is Great.

MagikFingerz wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:17 pm Meh, I have enough Ohio Tallies to last me a while.

I thought I did also, at one point.
I didn't.

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:31 am so this is the same as the standard tallys just a different stock? i'll most likely still pick up one of each though cause i'm a completionist.. lol

It's all the same stock. I should rephrase that with a little explanation. There is only one paper, it's USPCC. It is however crushed to a different weight. The thicker stuff has a lighter crush on the paper, that's what we'd call Bee stock. It has that more luxurious feel, but it's just a little longer lasting, a little more durable. (We all know taking care of a deck, it'll last an incredibly long time.) Bikes and Ho's are on thinner paper than Bee, it's more responsive but more broken down due to the smoosh compressing the fibers and breaking them a bit more. Thin crush, the pretty much just set their paper smoosher on the "Road kill" setting and turn that beast loose.

This is why there can be a different feel from deck run to deck run. It's also why measuring the thickness of this deck in my hands doesn't really say anything other than, this deck in my hands is Xinches or Xmm thick. The one in your hands will be different. So much comes into play with it as the paper will swell slightly (the tiniest amount but still it happens) in high humidity and a all that.

What you can expect from these Penguin Ho's is a traditional cut, so it faro shuffles easily. Thin crush, so it's very responsive to your fingers manipulating it and you're going to feel that right away. These should be very close to their (Penguin) Bicycle elite edition which are very nice! I enjoy mine and always wants me some more. *insert greedy hands emoji here*
(If you're just a Tally-ho guy and not a bikes guy too. They should perform similar Penguins white tally ho's if you snagged any of those before. They're fantastic!)

Fes, love your detailed insight. You're like the bizzaro world 2pc. But can you please add a TL;DR to all of your posts? I love what you're saying, I'm just trying not to have any summer reading projects.

Fes wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:56 am What you can expect from these Penguin Ho's is a traditional cut, so it faro shuffles easily.

To specify: Traditional cut only refers to which way the cut has been made, so it doesn't faro shuffle more easily than other decks in general, but easier one way compared to the other way (faces to faces vs backs to backs, I can never remember which for traditional cut).

MagikFingerz wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:27 pmI can never remember which for traditional cut).

Glad I'm not the only one...

I'm just going to say it: the supposed implications of traditional vs modern cut have never really made sense compared to actual experience faroing various decks. Supposedly modern cut 808s faro face down perfectly, face up not at all. Traditional cut decks printed on USPCC stock do exactly the same. Some other decks, including USPCC decks, don't faro at all, in either direction.

I've never found a deck that faros face up regardless of claimed cut.

Outsider wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:01 pmSome other decks, including USPCC decks, don't faro at all, in either direction.

Which one from USPC doesn't faro at all?

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:07 pm

Outsider wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:01 pmSome other decks, including USPCC decks, don't faro at all, in either direction.

Which one from USPC doesn't faro at all?

Off the top of my head, I have a deck of Archangels bought at Walgreens that cannot faro in either direction. I've read some others comment that theirs can, but mine can't; in either direction it feels exactly like trying to faro a deck face up, feels forced even if you kind of succeed and wears the card edges. Also worth noting that that particular deck had noticeable warp to it, which I sometimes find on 808s but almost never on better decks from USPCC.

Hilariously, the deck I can get a perfect faro with most reliably is a PVC deck of Copags. They are awful for every other flourish you might do, but they faro like butter.

TL:DR He's right! That's fun! It's a short list.

MagikFingerz wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:27 pm

Fes wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:56 am What you can expect from these Penguin Ho's is a traditional cut, so it faro shuffles easily.

To specify: Traditional cut only refers to which way the cut has been made, so it doesn't faro shuffle more easily than other decks in general, but easier one way compared to the other way (faces to faces vs backs to backs, I can never remember which for traditional cut).

Yep great point there! (I'm a bozo haha) Traditional cut are easier backs up or backs to backs. Also this cut is also more expensive now because there is one added step in the process, they have to flip the sheet over before cutting. So they end up cutting the cards out of the sheet face up and card back down. Idk, machinery thing or some such. I may be wrong but I believe before the move all Tally-ho were traditional cut.

Outsider wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:07 pm

Outsider wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:01 pmSome other decks, including USPCC decks, don't faro at all, in either direction.

Which one from USPC doesn't faro at all?

I have a deck of Archangels bought at Walgreens that cannot faro in either direction. .../... Also worth noting that that particular deck had noticeable warp to it, which I sometimes find on 808s but almost never on better decks from USPCC.

I love it! That was completely unexpected. Good fun! (That warp in the deck is most likely caused by exposure to high humidity then rapid drying out. I get that happening to me fairly frequently, arid climate. A little heat and some pressure should fix that right up. I use a window sill and loaded piggy bank, usually works.)

. . . Wracked my brain here for a moment and all I came up with beyond that one deck of Archangels is this. Gilded decks, that would be it unless the gilding is laid down whilst the deck is at a slight angle. The issue being in the gilding process itself. Other than that, to my knowledge, all USPCC decks can faro shuffle. The only variable being a persons skill and approach but yep pretty sure all USPCC decks should it's a product of the process of how they cut the cards from the sheet.

The quick rundown of manufactures that I have personal experience with that do NOT faro shuffle is, MPC. There you have it, big list. (MPC has the one product that will Faro btw)

Any deck can be faro'd in either direction if you know what you're doing. However, almost all decks can faro in one direction more naturally or much easier than the other direction depending on which method they are cut, due to the slight bevel created on the edge in the direction of the cut. A deck that has a Traditional cut is one that is face up when it is cut, so as a result they faro naturally from face-to-back. A Traditional cut allows you to faro a deck easily face down on a table, which won't give away any cards during the shuffle. A deck that has a Modern cut is one that is face down when it is cut, so as a result they faro naturally from back-to-front. The disadvantage of the Modern cut is that it is more difficult to faro a deck face down on a table, so card mechanics (and to a lesser extent, magicians and cardists) greatly prefer the Traditional cut. I remember the good old days on Decknique when members would challenge each other to see who can do 8 consecutive perfect faro's (which would restore the deck in it's original deck order) the fastest. The weirdest deck to faro for me is the Absolut Vodka deck. Some days it faro's easily either direction, and other days either direction is a struggle. The Absolut Vodka deck is one of the thinnest decks I've handled and I almost think the card stock is a single ply.

One of the reasons I dislike EPCC/LPCC/Hanson Chien decks is that they seem to warp easily and develop click bends. So despite how glassy smooth they cut their edges (which has zero effect on anything, including faro's) if the deck gets a click bend in the opposite direction of the Traditional cut (I don't think I've seen any of their decks with a Modern cut), then it's super tough to faro the deck front-to-back and you're better off faro'ing against the grain, but it makes it very difficult to get perfect faro's.

vasta41 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:49 am Fes, love your detailed insight. You're like the bizzaro world 2pc. But can you please add a TL;DR to all of your posts? I love what you're saying, I'm just trying not to have any summer reading projects.

theCapraAegagrus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:47 am

vasta41 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:49 am Fes, love your detailed insight. You're like the bizzaro world 2pc. But can you please add a TL;DR to all of your posts? I love what you're saying, I'm just trying not to have any summer reading projects.

Case and point.

TL:DR

theCapraAegagrus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:47 am

Looks like there's going to be some other versions of this as well. USPCC printed a lot is my guess. Carc just hit me email up with a web press buck more a pack version of this. Some fan backs and bikes in the email.

What Makes These Cards Better?

Printed On USPCC's Web Press, which is a HUGE deal,
Heat Cured for extreme consistency,
Thin Crushed to 52 cards = 14.10 to 14.35mm
Traditionally Cut for perfect bottom up and table faros,
Traditional Stamp like seal applied to the left for easy opening,
And a WORKING Red Tear Strip!

I like Carc just fine but I'll stick with Penguin on these. Naa, not going to buy from both and compare. I'll just save the buck since Carc gets a donation out of me anyway.

Yeah well unless Conjuring Arts wants to go back to international friendly shipping rates then i'm not buying anything from them. Cannot justify spending almost $30 US to ship 6 decks to Canada or even less decks. I'll stick with the Penguin Magic variants.

Just a quick note that the Penguin Elite Bicycles are printed on the Web Press, as are our Marked Maidens (Red and Blue for both). It's just not something we really emphasize, as very few people today can/would discern the difference between the sheet fed press and the web press. The differences were much more noticeable pre-Erlanger.

Our Tally Elite for this first batch are Sheet-Fed press due to quantity, future runs are TBD.

So the practical differences between Elite and the new EPCC ones are the color of tear band, the presence of a seal, and the price. I am not sure what bonus/ad cards the EPCC ones include.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is special about them being printed on the web press?

Pity there's no split-brick available. I'd definitely prefer getting brick ($5/piece) but two bricks to get both colors is too much.

IMHO, really nothing these days. In the older factory, there was a noticeable handling quality between the two presses. We're talking back in the day when minimum orders were also 5k decks.

These days, I don't really find there to be much practical difference.

The min print run to use the web press these days is 15k. Think of how many decks are on the market that have a run of 2500 or fewer. Those all feel great. In the case of these decks, it's really the thin crushed stock that makes the difference rather than the particular press.

Some of you folks out there may be like me and want to consolidate shipping rather than stagger orders with pre-order stuff. (better for the world and pocket, all that what) Expecting these on September the 24th.

So these just came today. They handle really awesome right out of the box and the choice of extra cards seems just right. I like that. Only I have to use 55 of them to feel thick enough in my hands. But I think most people will prefer the thinness of the crushed deck so this is really just my problem.