UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:26 pm**

Who is this guy and how the heck is this project backed by 200+ backers right off the bat?
Not mention of which printing co. he's using.

Each of the 54 cards in this deck will be printed on M31 casino quality card stock with a black core finish to prevent any light from passing through in a linen finish.

Nonetheless, the art is fantastic... If anyone is interested in backing these, please ask the creator who he's printing with and the card finish.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:57 pm**

Decknowledgy wrote:Who is this guy and how the heck is this project backed by 200+ backers right off the bat?

A vegan illustrator from Waukesha, Wisconsin with 305,000+ followers on instagram. So, it's not surprising that he has 200+ backers already.

Really sweet (as in splendid) art. Only downside for me is the white chosen for the red suits. If you have gameplay in mind it's better to make one colour pop, imo.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:23 pm**

Decknowledgy wrote: Not mention of which printing co. he's using.
Each of the 54 cards in this deck will be printed on M31 casino quality card stock with a black core finish to prevent any light from passing through in a linen finish.

M31 is MPC
https://www.makeplayingcards.com/310gsm ... stock.aspx

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:59 pm**

At $20 per deck, he could go with anyone other than MPC.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:06 pm**

I think they're gilded cards?

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:17 pm**

Yup, that's what the campaign says. $20 for a gilded deck is pretty good. I'm not sure if it is still a good price for an MPC gilded deck though...

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:42 pm**

Harvonsgard wrote:Yup, that's what the campaign says. $20 for a gilded deck is pretty good. I'm not sure if it is still a good price for an MPC gilded deck though...

I think that depends on the stock. Some of the more recent decks using their top stock are not half bad.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:14 pm**

Though I commend him on being more environmentally friendly, I am worried about the decks being damaged during shipping since he plans on using a compostable mailer.

And to be more green, there will be no plastic wrapping and no stickers to seal them for any added unnecessary waste. I will also be shipping them in a compostable mailer including the shipping label =]

I just sent him a note to consider USPCC and their vegetable based inks, paper from sustainable forests and starch based lamination...hopefully he will like that option better than MPC

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:20 pm**

For Fillide Jocu used some paper cushion material that was just as fine as bubble wrap. Maybe he is going for the same option.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:44 pm**

Harvonsgard wrote:For Fillide Jocu used some paper cushion material that was just as fine as bubble wrap. Maybe he is going for the same option.

Would prefer a cardboard box over a mailer any day

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:54 pm**

I never use them to send decks, because I know that some folks are iffy about them but I never had problems with any deck I got in a mailer. Seeing what Daisho posted a while ago what happened to some of his parcels, there is never a 100% guarantee anyways but yah, there're these tiny cardboard boxes as well - good option.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:35 am**

Magic Tapp wrote:
Harvonsgard wrote:Yup, that's what the campaign says. $20 for a gilded deck is pretty good. I'm not sure if it is still a good price for an MPC gilded deck though...
I think that depends on the stock. Some of the more recent decks using their top stock are not half bad.

Yup. Agreed. As long as you see M3x as the MPC stock, you can be assured that the handling's going to be good. Anything below that is what you know about MPC decks prior to the release of their M3 range.

Their M30 is their The One card stock meant for cardistry while M32 was the one used on their Chao decks. So M31 is close to their M32 stock used for Chao. I've got both their The One and Chao decks and can testify to their handling. Fans and fist fans were a breeze to perform. (for non-cardist level aptitude) So M31 is basically their recommended stock for KS as there are no min order required. See below for details.

It'll be interesting to see what MPC can do with $20 M31 stock and gilding. As long as it comes close to WJPC/GW or better will be good.

Our top of the range paper card stock is the M32 linen air option. It's similar to our M31 linen cardstock but the card surface embossing (air pockets) are further defined which traps more air to provide an unparalleled smoothness in card handling. These cards are very durable, beautiful with top notch handling which make them MPC's top pick. This option carries a minimum order quantity of 1000 decks and will be printed on traditional offset printers with solid color output. This is perfect for people who require the absolute best in quality on playing cards and demand that their cards perform as professionally as they look. Great for Kickstarter projects, cardists and magicians.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:20 am**

Harvonsgard wrote:I never use them to send decks, because I know that some folks are iffy about them but I never had problems with any deck I got in a mailer. Seeing what Daisho posted a while ago what happened to some of his parcels, there is never a 100% guarantee anyways but yah, there're these tiny cardboard boxes as well - good option.

Where does one purchase these boxes? They seem perfectly sized for single or multiple decks.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:41 am**

brownsl wrote:
Harvonsgard wrote:I never use them to send decks, because I know that some folks are iffy about them but I never had problems with any deck I got in a mailer. Seeing what Daisho posted a while ago what happened to some of his parcels, there is never a 100% guarantee anyways but yah, there're these tiny cardboard boxes as well - good option.
Where does one purchase these boxes? They seem perfectly sized for single or multiple decks.

I purchase mine through Staples. 4 x 3 x 1 for singles and 4 x 3 x 2 for doubles...couldnt find the single deck boxes when I just looked at Staples, but you can also check Uline as they are probably one of the biggest manufacturers and make a ton of sizes

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:44 am**

shermjack wrote:
brownsl wrote:
Harvonsgard wrote:I never use them to send decks, because I know that some folks are iffy about them but I never had problems with any deck I got in a mailer. Seeing what Daisho posted a while ago what happened to some of his parcels, there is never a 100% guarantee anyways but yah, there're these tiny cardboard boxes as well - good option.
Awesome, thanks! Sorry for the thread diversion.

Where does one purchase these boxes? They seem perfectly sized for single or multiple decks.
I purchase mine through Staples. 4 x 3 x 1 for singles and 4 x 3 x 2 for doubles...couldnt find the single deck boxes when I just looked at Staples, but you can also check Uline as they are probably one of the biggest manufacturers and make a ton of sizes

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 6:27 am**

Harvonsgard wrote:
Decknowledgy wrote:Who is this guy and how the heck is this project backed by 200+ backers right off the bat?
A vegan illustrator from Waukesha, Wisconsin with 305,000+ followers on instagram. So, it's not surprising that he has 200+ backers already.

Really sweet (as in splendid) art. Only downside for me is the white chosen for the red suits. If you have gameplay in mind it's better to make one colour pop, imo.

That's an immediate pass.

I also don't pledge for unfinished decks. B&W doesn't cut it here.

I dated a B from Waukesha back in the day.

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 5:54 pm**

Tim responded to my message about USPCC and said he will look into the possibility of using them...fingers crossed

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 6:07 pm**

Good news. This artwork on USPC stock - would be a blast.

Posted: **Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:06 pm**

Mine came in today. They're certainly not for everybody; I don't see that he ever announced the final choice for printer on KS, but the smooth stock certainly does feel like MPC, and the decision to eschew color on the cards completely is going to be a bridge too far for many. But I'm happy with 'em. Didn't see any of the shipping damage some are complaining about on KS, either, though I usually don't see much of that regardless.

I will say the cards have a slight forward bow to them, back to front, such that if you hold the (untucked) deck in one hand and press gently down in the middle of the face with the other there's a, like, "sealed for your protection"-level noticeable pop back into flatness. I want to say I've seen it with other MPC-ish decks but the gilding probably isn't helping. It's the first time I've actually felt like I could use a card press. Any suggestions from the peanut gallery? Can I just plop my OED on these suckers and wait, or what?

EDIT: Forgot to mention that, due to eco-friendliness, there's no cello or shrinkwrap on this one, so caveat emptor if that kind of thing bothers you. (Also, the deck comes out of the box with the Ace of Clubs on top and cards stacked Ace to King throughout, in the order clubs-diamonds-hearts-spades, which feels just a little wrong.)

Posted: **Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:58 am**

Merlebird wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:06 pm I want to say I've seen it with other MPC-ish decks but the gilding probably isn't helping.

How is the gilding? Very interested to know how they compare with WJPC and GW. Not expecting KWP level gilding or even Cartamundi, but would be good to know.

Didn't get the deck due to cost and the B&W art just reminds me of a incomplete Agitcom deck.

Posted: **Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:12 am**

Eric Lee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:58 am How is the gilding? Very interested to know how they compare with WJPC and GW. Not expecting KWP level gilding or even Cartamundi, but would be good to know.

So this sent me down a little bit of a rabbit hole. I scoured UC to see if anybody had touched on variations in modern gilding methods, but the answer seemed to mostly be "no"; Mike mentions in several posts that most modern gilded decks use cupric alloy foil that's heat-flashed onto the sides of the deck, and Sunish at one point reposted a graphic mentioning sanding the edges of the cards as a step in the gilding process, but if anyone's addressed why different decks gilded with the same method look or handle differently, I wasn't able to find it. I have a few different gilded decks and was going to do some research into which ones used which gilder, but - hear me out on this - I am actually incredibly lazy and don't feel like sifting through like five campaigns' worth of KS updates to figure that out. So instead I will just take some pictures and leave the deep-diving to whatever tryhard feels up to it. You nerds like pictures, right? Cool.

Now, I can't faro-shuffle, so the degree to which I can form an educated opinion about handling clocks in somewhere around "lol." That said, my guess is that the gilding is on the lower end quality-wise. Rather than having the crisp sheen I see on most of my gildeds, the Vonnart's gilding has a kind of glitter-dusty, particulate look.

From left to right: Primordial Aether, Culturae Animalis, Transsiberian Railway, Vonnart.

The gilding on Transsiberian Railway is the most reflective by far, but all of them are reflective to some extent except Vonnart.

I'm not sure what could cause this difference - foil thickness or quality? alloy composition? flash temperature or environmental humidity level? - but I've seen this chintzy, glittery look on one other deck I own, and that one tends to transfer a good deal of gilding onto my hands just by being held, no shuffling required. (Well, not many people would try to faro-shuffle a tarot deck anyhow.)

From left to right: Children of Litha Tarot, Shadow Light Tarot, Silence. You can see the Shadow Light Tarot's gilding scatters light, rather than reflecting it, in exactly the same way Vonnart's does.

Aside from the higher transfer rate, another reason I suspect this kind of gilding is of lesser quality is because of something I noticed during research for this post (before I got bored and quit). As pictured, the Children of Litha Tarot has a smooth sheen, like most of my other gildeds - probably the most similar to Culturae Animalis. But if you look at the Children of Litha campaign page on KS, you can see the prototype deck has the exact same uneven, sparkly look as the Vonnart deck and the Shadow Light Tarot have.

The creator mentions at one point that she chose her prototype printer because they didn't have a minimum order quantity for gilded decks. Whether the printer in question was MPC, I don't know, but at the least it suggests why their process for gilding might resemble MPC's.

TL;DR the answer to your question is "meh." That's all I got.

Posted: **Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:14 pm**

I'm going to venture that. . . That's paint! Finely ground pigment piped through an airbrush. It's alcohol based so it dries quite fast. No special steps other than clamping it down required. The deck doesn't even have to be clamped square really so long as the airbrush is at level with it when it's sprayed. Clamp, spray, vacuum done! Should play just fine with low to no impact on faro shuffling.

Posted: **Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:25 pm**

Fes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:14 pm I'm going to venture that. . . That's paint! Finely ground pigment piped through an airbrush. It's alcohol based so it dries quite fast. No special steps other than clamping it down required.

That certainly would explain the... [gestures encompassingly at photos] now, wouldn't it. Of course it's going to look like a "particulate" if it, you know, is one. Anything shiny that's fine enough to put through an airbrush is basically glitter, which no binder or adhesive known to science has ever successfully kept from transferring onto everything it touches. And minimum quantities? Pfft, there's no job too small for a can of spray paint. It all fits.

So, Eric, if I might amend my earlier response:

Eric Lee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:58 am How is the gilding?

It's paint!

This does raise a delicate taxonomic question. Broadly speaking, the modern collectors' market seems to have accepted the generalization of the term "gilding" to include, not just the use of gold simulants like cupric alloy foil, but also the similar application of foil of other colors. (Note the regular description of decks as "silver gilded," a turn of phrase which would probably kill every art history student you know if you repeated it three times into a darkened bathroom mirror.) But what about cards edged, not with metal foil of any kind, but simply metallic pigment? Is it acceptable for sellers to claim that they're "gilded," but not that they have "gilding?" Are "gilded" and "gilding" both reserved for cards edged with metal foil, and ethical marketers confined to describing their painted decks merely as having "gilt edges?" Or, so long as it glitters, is all ad copy golden?

I mentioned in the previous post that I had done some digging through the UC archives looking for an explanation of what might cause variations in the appearance and handling of "gilded" decks. (As usual, I was simultaneously over- and under-thinking it, but let's set my broken brain aside as a topic for another occasion.) Here's a choice pearl I came across during my research; excisions in [...] are mine, all else [sic]:

JacksonRobinson wrote: ↑Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:23 am As card collectors we always we are conditioned to paying the cheapest price for in most cases really crappy decks that have no thought into them, and have no attention to detail [...] We always gripe about USPC not being able to do this or not be able to do that, but in reality it is our faults as collectors that they have done away with things like, perfect registration, metallic foiling on cards, gilded edges. They have done away with those because we don't demand the highest quality of product from card companies and designers. We demand (with our wallets) the 15th recoloring of a bland deck that barely even printed on nice stock, and has no attention to detail. The only detail that is being paid attention too is making the deck cost under $2.00 to print so their margins will be high. [...] We as collectors have guided USPC and other card companies where they are today when more beautiful cards were being produced on far inferior equipment a hundred plus years ago [...] The only thing I ask is to be mindful that our sometimes laser focused attention to "Buy Low Sell High" as a collector over times erodes the very art that we all love, because it drives the direction of the companies in which make the products that we buy [...] In my eyes there are only about 3-4 companies/designers who are really pushing the envelope and propelling the craft forward, the rest are settling for "just ok" and putting out decks that show it. Demand the best, demand the highest standards and if its not to those standards (my decks included) don't spending your money [...] please don't by a crappy deck, because buying a crappy deck just because you are a card collector just means that "they" will keep making crappy cards.

Jackson wrote this in early 2014. I started collecting something like a year and a half later, and the hobby he's describing here is almost unrecognizable to me. I don't want to overstate the influence of our shady little corner of Al Gore's internet, but I don't think it's overblown or narcissistic to say that, as a group, as I write this, the collectors and creators who use this forum are playing a significant role in setting the bar for what the collectors' market will accept. So I'm interested to see what others here think of this deck treatment (to describe it as neutrally as possible), and of what specific language is or isn't appropriate to use in marketing decks thus treated.

Words. I said 'em, you read 'em. Thanks.

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:15 am**

Merlebird wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:25 pm So I'm interested to see what others here think of this deck treatment (to describe it as neutrally as possible), and of what specific language is or isn't appropriate to use in marketing decks thus treated.

Great topic for a discussion! (In it's own thread somewhere so we can find it easily. Next week I'm not likely to remember this thread name and it will be off page one here.)

What I see of this deck. It's a very inexpensive bonus from a first time deck designer who just wanted to make a deck of playing cards featuring their original art. Is this gilded? Sure, it's some gold looking stuff applied to the edges to further enhance their vision. Yep, that's gilded. (I'm thinking about picking up a copy so I can get my paws on it and run it through it's courses once to check durability.)

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:12 pm**

Thanks for the deep dive into the UC archive. So much gems laying there.

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Vonnart Illustrated Playing Cards / KS

Vonnart Illustrated Playing Cards / KS

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Re: Vonnart Illustrated Playing Cards / KS

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Re: Vonnart Illustrated Playing Cards / KS

Re: Vonnart Illustrated Playing Cards / KS

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