The Galaxy fun continues Flowers Ninja Funding on Kickstarte

[badpete69]

[Oswin]

Another !?

[Encarded]

Pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is "ninja funding?"

Is that funding that disappears silently in the night, leaving your project dead of poisoning or a knife in the neck?

[BMPokerworld]

Pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is "ninja funding?"

Is that funding that disappears silently in the night, leaving your project dead of poisoning or a knife in the neck?

ROFLMAO!!!!

[badpete69]

That is exactly what that is...That project failed twice already so the question became how low can I go so that i can get money from suckers err backers

[4pmdesigner]

*EXPLICIT LANGUAGE WARNING*

What the hell is this shit?! How many times are these guys going to keep failing, canceling, relaunching, remodeling these etc etc etc blah blah bullshit. It's quite easy to see, even to a blind man, this is all about trying to cash in over and over again. How are you going to relaunch a failed project AND a "2nd version" of a mildly successful deck which already had mixed reviews with the quality, under TWO different "names" just so you can try and cash in....AT THE SAME TIME. How about showing some sense of logical business and put your focus one getting one deck funded. Sorry, but you have to be smurfing stupid to continue supporting these guys.

This isn't "ninja funding" it's Seppuku funding.

PD. this is the censored version of how I really feel.

[alric]

I want to start off by asking you all not to flame me for this post. I find these guys a joke and a liability to the playing card community as much as the rest of you guys do.

BUT, I really am digging one of their add-ons or stretch goals, and that's the mini decks. Why don't more deck designers offer mini deck versions of their regular decks? If there was a Grid 2.0 mini deck option, or a Deco mini deck option, or a Federal 52 mini deck option, I would be all over it!!!

[BMPokerworld]

*EXPLICIT LANGUAGE WARNING*

What the hell is this shit?! How many times are these guys going to keep failing, canceling, relaunching, remodeling these etc etc etc blah blah bullshit. It's quite easy to see, even to a blind man, this is all about trying to cash in over and over again. How are you going to relaunch a failed project AND a "2nd version" of a mildly successful deck which already had mixed reviews with the quality, under TWO different "names" just so you can try and cash in....AT THE SAME TIME. How about showing some sense of logical business and put your focus one getting one deck funded. Sorry, but you have to be smurfing stupid to continue supporting these guys.

This isn't "ninja funding" it's Seppuku funding.

PD. this is the censored version of how I really feel.

If you watched the video they made for their first deck, then you would understanding the mentality you are dealing with.

Thanks!

[4pmdesigner]

I want to start off by asking you all not to flame me for this post. I find these guys a joke and a liability to the playing card community as much as the rest of you guys do.

BUT, I really am digging one of their add-ons or stretch goals, and that's the mini decks. Why don't more deck designers offer mini deck versions of their regular decks? If there was a Grid 2.0 mini deck option, or a Deco mini deck option, or a Federal 52 mini deck option, I would be all over it!!!

The mini deck is pretty clever and a cool add on. We've explored it but weren't too sure it would be worth while considering it would be made by an outside printer and would hate it to be bad quality. Not fully giving up on the option, but not sure about it.

[4pmdesigner]

*EXPLICIT LANGUAGE WARNING*

What the hell is this shit?! How many times are these guys going to keep failing, canceling, relaunching, remodeling these etc etc etc blah blah bullshit. It's quite easy to see, even to a blind man, this is all about trying to cash in over and over again. How are you going to relaunch a failed project AND a "2nd version" of a mildly successful deck which already had mixed reviews with the quality, under TWO different "names" just so you can try and cash in....AT THE SAME TIME. How about showing some sense of logical business and put your focus one getting one deck funded. Sorry, but you have to be smurfing stupid to continue supporting these guys.

This isn't "ninja funding" it's Seppuku funding.

PD. this is the censored version of how I really feel.

If you watched the video they made for their first deck, then you would understanding the mentality you are dealing with.

Thanks!

I totally forgot about that embarrassing thing! Was actually pretty insulting. Maybe that's why I forgot it, my brain refused to use up space in my memory for it

[sinjin7]

The mini deck is pretty clever and a cool add on. We've explored it but weren't too sure it would be worth while considering it would be made by an outside printer and would hate it to be bad quality. Not fully giving up on the option, but not sure about it.

The Ghost mini deck and the Tally Ho mini decks are actually pretty good quality. If you decide to make a mini deck option, you might want to look into who produced those mini decks.

[max]

Why aren't the mini decks from USPCC air cushion? is it a size matter?

[vmagic]

To be fair I don't think these guys are making a whole lot of profit on these anyway.

[4pmdesigner]

The mini deck is pretty clever and a cool add on. We've explored it but weren't too sure it would be worth while considering it would be made by an outside printer and would hate it to be bad quality. Not fully giving up on the option, but not sure about it.

The Ghost mini deck and the Tally Ho mini decks are actually pretty good quality. If you decide to make a mini deck option, you might want to look into who produced those mini decks.

Hmm, that's right they did release those didn't they? It might be too late since our decks are about to go into print but I'm gonna check in on out. Since it appears mini decks are more of a novelty, the question would be, does the quality matter to people interested in them?

[sinjin7]

At the end of the day, the quality of a mini deck is not as important as the actual deck, but it would be nice if the mini deck had some quality. A prime example would be the Ghost and Black Tiger mini decks E produced. The Ghost mini actually had a finish on it and quite useable, while the Black Tiger mini was basically just paper and pretty crappy. E produced both, but I don't know why the Black Tiger mini was so bad while the Ghost mini was pretty good. Now the mini wasn't anywhere close to an actual Ghost deck, but decent.

I get that it might be too late to incorporate a mini for your Grid 2.0 (which I love, by the way), but I'd like to see more designers use it as an option for future projects.

[4pmdesigner]

At the end of the day, the quality of a mini deck is not as important as the actual deck, but it would be nice if the mini deck had some quality. A prime example would be the Ghost and Black Tiger mini decks E produced. The Ghost mini actually had a finish on it and quite useable, while the Black Tiger mini was basically just paper and pretty crappy. E produced both, but I don't know why the Black Tiger mini was so bad while the Ghost mini was pretty good. Now the mini wasn't anywhere close to an actual Ghost deck, but decent.

I get that it might be too late to incorporate a mini for your Grid 2.0 (which I love, by the way), but I'd like to see more designers use it as an option for future projects.

I just heard back from the USPCC about the mini decks which would probably explain the difference between the ghost and tiger minis. They don't produce the decks themselves, they are printed through an outside vendor. So the official word is, no, it won't be the same quality but you can try and get something similar. I'm going to look into it with my team and see if it's feasible for The Grid 2.0. If not, maybe for a feature release of ours.

[UtterFool]

Back to the topic of The Flower deck (the abortion of a deck that it is)

This is a prime case showing that Kickstarter should start charging a small fee to put projects up on their site.
Nothing significant, it could be a percentage of the final fee that they would charge if the project gets funded at the basic goal cost.
They could even then offer a refund of a percentage of that back if you don't fund.
example
you want to raise $10,000 on your project.
Lets say they charge you 5%
you pay them $500 dollars up front showing that you are serious about the project and are willing to put some capital of your own towards it.
If the project funds this money goes towards the percent that you owe Kickstarter
If you don't fund kickstarter refunds your money back to 1% of the initial goal.
in this case Kickstater would keep $100. The cost for using their service.
They could put a cap on the total amount they keep so that small companies trying to start up a big expensive project like a $1,000,000 video game wouldn't be out $10,000 if they fail.

This would do a few things.
It would prevent the no cost to me attitude that many projects are going forward with these days.
It would stop pointless projects like this
and would hopefully guarantee force some project creators to put that extra work into a good idea to make it a great idea.
(you see this with some of the decks recently, where there is a decent concept but the full effort and time was not put in)

Just my 2 cents

[DukeBoy]

I think even a flat $100 would cut down the trash that goes up now. I do not look on KS for anything other than decks so I have no idea if they are having this issue everywhere or just with the decks.

[Twix]

I think even a flat $100 would cut down the trash that goes up now. I do not look on KS for anything other than decks so I have no idea if they are having this issue everywhere or just with the decks.

It's definitely not just decks that are cheaply and poorly thought out on KS. The amount of ugly shirts, wallets, iproducts holder/charger/case, etc. that you see on there make you really wonder what people are thinking. Just my 2 cents.

[alric]

I just heard back from the USPCC about the mini decks which would probably explain the difference between the ghost and tiger minis. They don't produce the decks themselves, they are printed through an outside vendor. So the official word is, no, it won't be the same quality but you can try and get something similar. I'm going to look into it with my team and see if it's feasible for The Grid 2.0. If not, maybe for a feature release of ours.

Thanks for looking into this for us, I think mini decks (depending on pricing) would be a big hit for collectors. I think magicians could use a mini deck for certain routines as well. I doubt anyone could do any flourishes with a mini deck or would play poker with them anyways, so the quality doesn't have to be just as high as the big decks.

[sgllama]

I foresee getting some less than positive responses for making this my first posting on UC, but after reading the following something just snapped, so I finally registered...

Back to the topic of The Flower deck (the abortion of a deck that it is)

This is a prime case showing that Kickstarter should start charging a small fee to put projects up on their site.
Nothing significant, it could be a percentage of the final fee that they would charge if the project gets funded at the basic goal cost.
They could even then offer a refund of a percentage of that back if you don't fund.
example
you want to raise $10,000 on your project.
Lets say they charge you 5%
you pay them $500 dollars up front showing that you are serious about the project and are willing to put some capital of your own towards it.
If the project funds this money goes towards the percent that you owe Kickstarter
If you don't fund kickstarter refunds your money back to 1% of the initial goal.
in this case Kickstater would keep $100. The cost for using their service.
They could put a cap on the total amount they keep so that small companies trying to start up a big expensive project like a $1,000,000 video game wouldn't be out $10,000 if they fail.

This would do a few things.
It would prevent the no cost to me attitude that many projects are going forward with these days.
It would stop pointless projects like this
and would hopefully guarantee force some project creators to put that extra work into a good idea to make it a great idea.
(you see this with some of the decks recently, where there is a decent concept but the full effort and time was not put in)

Just my 2 cents

I'm sorry, but I really can't understand the amount of pain and grief that rubbish KS projects cause some people here - I am actually interested to know *why* this affects you so, so that I can judge how to read UC postings.

The quality of card projects on KS is, from what I've spotted over the last couple of years, actually pretty good. It certainly beats Sturgeon's Law ("... 90% of everything is rubbish"). I can provide links to some really, really rubbish/insane projects in other areas, for those that haven't looked beyond just card decks.

As I've used the same nickname here as on KS, it is trivial for you guys to spot that, yes, I've backed some of the projects that are deemed irksome here, including the first two goes for this flower deck: I happened to think that there were some people I knew, who aren't especially collectors of cards, who'd've found these fun and would've appreciated them as gifts. I can't defend Alien Inks's (or whatever they're calling themselves today) videos nor their efficiency in running their projects, but I would note that they did eventually get the product to me and it was pretty much what I expected it to be - which is a good deal better than some can manage!

[BMPokerworld]

I foresee getting some less than positive responses for making this my first posting on UC, but after reading the following something just snapped, so I finally registered...

Back to the topic of The Flower deck (the abortion of a deck that it is)

This is a prime case showing that Kickstarter should start charging a small fee to put projects up on their site.
Nothing significant, it could be a percentage of the final fee that they would charge if the project gets funded at the basic goal cost.
They could even then offer a refund of a percentage of that back if you don't fund.
example
you want to raise $10,000 on your project.
Lets say they charge you 5%
you pay them $500 dollars up front showing that you are serious about the project and are willing to put some capital of your own towards it.
If the project funds this money goes towards the percent that you owe Kickstarter
If you don't fund kickstarter refunds your money back to 1% of the initial goal.
in this case Kickstater would keep $100. The cost for using their service.
They could put a cap on the total amount they keep so that small companies trying to start up a big expensive project like a $1,000,000 video game wouldn't be out $10,000 if they fail.

This would do a few things.
It would prevent the no cost to me attitude that many projects are going forward with these days.
It would stop pointless projects like this
and would hopefully guarantee force some project creators to put that extra work into a good idea to make it a great idea.
(you see this with some of the decks recently, where there is a decent concept but the full effort and time was not put in)

Just my 2 cents

I'm sorry, but I really can't understand the amount of pain and grief that rubbish KS projects cause some people here - I am actually interested to know *why* this affects you so, so that I can judge how to read UC postings.

The quality of card projects on KS is, from what I've spotted over the last couple of years, actually pretty good. It certainly beats Sturgeon's Law ("... 90% of everything is rubbish"). I can provide links to some really, really rubbish/insane projects in other areas, for those that haven't looked beyond just card decks.

As I've used the same nickname here as on KS, it is trivial for you guys to spot that, yes, I've backed some of the projects that are deemed irksome here, including the first two goes for this flower deck: I happened to think that there were some people I knew, who aren't especially collectors of cards, who'd've found these fun and would've appreciated them as gifts. I can't defend Alien Inks's (or whatever they're calling themselves today) videos nor their efficiency in running their projects, but I would note that they did eventually get the product to me and it was pretty much what I expected it to be - which is a good deal better than some can manage!

I guess this is where most people here will disagree with you. First, the card manufacturer they are using is not a quality manufacturer for playing cards, in terms of durability and performance. They manufacture cards that are primarily used for giveaways to promote a business and for favors at parties. That is their main purpose, to advertise or mark a special event. They are not made to be handled and used like a regular deck of playing cards.

Secondly, if you consider buying from someone who tells you that they don't have enough of money to send out your product until they get more money in from selling their deck retail a success, then I think you will find most people on and off this forum will disagree with you. In addition, if they are such honest people, then why did they start a second Kickstarter account and call themselves Alien Slink? Was it to distances themselves from their first disaster? Were they trying to hide who they were? I read their bio, it certainly appeared that way to me. That is unfair in my opinion and would not be tolerated in any other business setting.

Thirdly, as far as the quality of the deck is concerned, every post I have ever read stated the pictures were muddy due to the poor printing job by the manufacturer and the quality of the deck did not lend itself to being able to be used long term before it had to be thrown out. Basically the deck was souvenir quality, which is really their specialty.

In closing, if you are happy with their business practices and their product, then by all means support them. Just be fully aware of the fact that you are risking your money with people of questionable ethics and business practices.

Thanks!

Finally

EDIT: We take collecting cards very seriously here and I think most people here don't appreciate people like Alien Ink or Alien Slink coming along and producing an inferior product with inferior business practices. They are just in it to make a few bucks and that is all they care about. If someone new came into this hobby and their first interaction was with a company like alien Ink, would they come back? Companies like Alien Ink add nothing positive to the hobby, they are only in it for what they can take out of it and when they burn every bridge available to them, they will move on to something else and do the same things all over again.

[vasta41]

I like to try and put myself in other people's shoes and ask, "Would I do that?"

- If I was talented enough to come up with a design and concept for a deck of playing cards REGARDLESS OF PRICE, who would I want to make them? The USPCC, of course.

- If I didn't have enough money, how would I raise the money? Kickstarter, of course.

- If I was promoting my deck, would I make every attempt to show how amazing I think the cards are by promoting them in a way that appeals to the very cardists I'm trying to sell them to? Would I try to act professionally to get people to see I'm a reputable business man trying to sell a high-quality product? Of course!

- If I did NONE OF THE ABOVE and saw people ridiculing me on playing card forums, would I go on them and use every excuse under the sun to try and justify the fact that I didn't do any of the above? Of course not!

- If my project didn't get funded and I received much negative feedback, would I change my name and/or try relaunching my project, not heeding anyone's advice and make all the same mistakes I previously made? NO!

As Mike said, these guys clearly don't belong in our world. If they want to sell novelty items, fine. There's no place for that here. I personally don't get as upset as other people on this forum (one reason being I enjoy the comedy!) but I see that what they're doing and what people here are doing are a night and day difference.

That's all! Paul's two cents of the day.

[sgllama]

Well, I was trying to ask the more general question, prompted by the suggestion that KS should be doing something more than they are, however:

I foresee getting some less than positive responses for making this my first posting on UC, but after reading the following something just snapped, so I finally registered...

Back to the topic of The Flower deck (the abortion of a deck that it is)
...

...

I guess this is where most people here will disagree with you.

Um, disagree with me? All I said about the deck was that "it was pretty much what I expected it to be". Nothing more.

Secondly, if you consider buying from someone who tells you that they don't have enough of money to send out your product until they get more money in from selling their deck retail a success, then I think you will find most people on and off this forum will disagree with you. In addition, if they are such honest people, then why did they start a second Kickstarter account and call themselves Alien Slink? Was it to distances themselves from their first disaster? Were they trying to hide who they were? I read their bio, it certainly appeared that way to me. That is unfair in my opinion and would not be tolerated in any other business setting.

and

In closing, if you are happy with their business practices and their product, then by all means support them. Just be fully aware of the fact that you are risking your money with people of questionable ethics and business practices.

Again, "I can't defend Alien Inks's (or whatever they're calling themselves today) videos nor their efficiency in running their projects" and I've not suggested that I or anyone else should consider buying into any of their current projects. Not sure I'd be quite so strong on the ethics point though, given that the renaming was hardly going to fool anyone and just being generally crap doesn't immediately imply bad ethics.

First, the card manufacturer they are using is not a quality manufacturer for playing cards, in terms of durability and performance. They manufacture cards that are primarily used for giveaways to promote a business and for favors at parties. That is their main purpose, to advertise or mark a special event. They are not made to be handled and used like a regular deck of playing cards.

Thirdly, as far as the quality of the deck is concerned, every post I have ever read stated the pictures were muddy due to the poor printing job by the manufacturer and the quality of the deck did not lend itself to being able to be used long term before it had to be thrown out. Basically the deck was souvenir quality, which is really their specialty.

Isn't that just the same point said twice - the manufacturer wasn't USPCC and therefore the cards are what you'd expect from them, namely souvenir quality.

Finally

EDIT: We take collecting cards very seriously here and I think most people here don't appreciate people like Alien Ink or Alien Slink coming along and producing an inferior product with inferior business practices. They are just in it to make a few bucks and that is all they care about. If someone new came into this hobby and their first interaction was with a company like alien Ink, would they come back? Companies like Alien Ink add nothing positive to the hobby, they are only in it for what they can take out of it and when they burn every bridge available to them, they will move on to something else and do the same things all over again.

Bluntly put and appreciated for that. Not going to disagree. But that comes back to my actual original question: why the grief at KS and suggestions (demands?) that they do something? (by the way, in this I'm not trying to single out UtterFool's original post beyond it just having been the most recent example).

KS are not part of the card collecting community. Nor are Amazon or other places where you can find dreadful rubbish mixed in with the good stuff.

[sgllama]

As Mike said, these guys clearly don't belong in our world. If they want to sell novelty items, fine. There's no place for that here. I personally don't get as upset as other people on this forum (one reason being I enjoy the comedy!) but I see that what they're doing and what people here are doing are a night and day difference.

I absolutely agree - those guys don't belong here and you've told them so in no uncertain terms. More than once.

But (you can see this coming, can't you?) why the ire at KS qua KS? It isn't part of the card collecting community, any more than it is part of the hobby electronics community.

When something card-related appears on KS you all do a great job of spotting it - even when it isn't an obvious card project - and I've benefitted from that (indeed, cursing myself today for not spending enough time reading UC and missing your coverage of the "Draw like a Boss" deck). If it is an item of good quality, that comes through the comments. If not good quality - well, that comes through pretty clearly as well! Armed with the extra information, if one is in the mood for a good quality item, when it appears, go for it - if it arrives and is as expected, job done. And exactly the same applies to a novelty item. In either case, if nothing turns up or it is markedly worse than you reasonably expected, shout and kick and scream.

[BMPokerworld]

As Mike said, these guys clearly don't belong in our world. If they want to sell novelty items, fine. There's no place for that here. I personally don't get as upset as other people on this forum (one reason being I enjoy the comedy!) but I see that what they're doing and what people here are doing are a night and day difference.

I absolutely agree - those guys don't belong here and you've told them so in no uncertain terms. More than once.

But (you can see this coming, can't you?) why the ire at KS qua KS? It isn't part of the card collecting community, any more than it is part of the hobby electronics community.

When something card-related appears on KS you all do a great job of spotting it - even when it isn't an obvious card project - and I've benefitted from that (indeed, cursing myself today for not spending enough time reading UC and missing your coverage of the "Draw like a Boss" deck). If it is an item of good quality, that comes through the comments. If not good quality - well, that comes through pretty clearly as well! Armed with the extra information, if one is in the mood for a good quality item, when it appears, go for it - if it arrives and is as expected, job done. And exactly the same applies to a novelty item. In either case, if nothing turns up or it is markedly worse than you reasonably expected, shout and kick and scream.

I think part of the problem here is you do not have all the information. They came on the old forum and basically said they had found the greatest card manufacturer ever. In fact, they even said it was a "Trade Secret" and did not want to share who it was because they "spent months researching product to get one as good as USPCC". They swore they did side by side comparisons of their wonder deck and USPCC's decks and found their deck to be just as good, which was clearly a lie.

You have to expect in a forum about playing cards, that anything related to playing cards is going to be discussed passionately, whether good or bad, whether professional or not. If people weren't passionate about playing cards, then there probably would be no need for a forum right?

Not sure I'd be quite so strong on the ethics point though, given that the renaming was hardly going to fool anyone and just being generally crap doesn't immediately imply bad ethics.

I have to strongly disagree with you here. If their intent wasn't to fool anyone, than why have a different user name? I believe that was their intent, it is just that they probably aren't bright enough to see that it won't work with the people they need to attract to their project so it will get funded.

Isn't that just the same point said twice - the manufacturer wasn't USPCC and therefore the cards are what you'd expect from them, namely souvenir quality.

No I don't see it that way because that is not how they portrayed their deck. They said it was just as good or better than USPCC and everyone would love the deck. They NEVER said they were trying to make a deck based on souvenir quality.

But (you can see this coming, can't you?) why the ire at KS qua KS? It isn't part of the card collecting community, any more than it is part of the hobby electronics community.

Basically because Kickstarter is allowing this type of behavior, when most people on the forum think they shouldn't.

Thanks!

[CBJ]

Since I still have access to the old UC.net site... here is exactly what they said...


"We hand selected our paperstock, finish and printing company.
Our printing company has an extensive and very long history in the playing card industry and prints for numerous casinos and magicians. These cards are made to the exact specs that we feel make the best card for cardistry and magic."

"Who is producing the deck? Well, as you know it isn't USPCC. But the question is, why won't they tell who's producting the deck? The answer is simple...they are in this for the long haul, and they spent a LOT of time and effort finding a good printer, and they don't want to just hand that hard earned info out to every other deck designer. The fact is the identity of their printer is what's called a trade secret. Coca Cola won't tell you the ingredients either...but you still drink it and love it"

"I want to address something here that is going unsaid, which is that everyone is assuming that USPCC is the only company in the world that can produce quality cards. You can't possibly believe that. This is a card forum, so you all must be experienced and know a lot more about this than me, but honestly, we aren't talking about rocket engines...we are talking about pieces of paper with designs on them. What do you really need...good card stock, a 4 color printing machine, and a good cutting machine...done and done. Just like any product, there are crappy manufacturers, and good manufacturers. A careful and consciencious card designer can find a good manufacturer that is not USPCC...and that's what Jeremiah and Sebastien did.

I like "made in USA" too...but Jeremiah and Sebastien are on a mission, and no matter what they have to do to make their vision (beautiful, high quality cards) a reality, they will do it."


and my favorite...

""Guys, its JUST playing cards, let's keep this in perspective."

sums it up perfectly to me. These guys could care less about producing quality product. They just want money.


CBJ

[4pmdesigner]

Besides all the obvious attempts at deception among a group of professionals and enthusiasts, the recent hate towards KS decks is primarily because of people like "Alien Ink/Slink". Which seems to be your reason to reply. I don't believe anyone will be hostile by your support of them but its primarily because you may not be aware of their actions. I'm a designer who still runs projects on kickstarter for various reasons, and even I share their distaste with recent KS projects. What you have to look at is their motivations. "Actions speak louder than words". They may talk a nice game, come off as the most passionate "designers" out there but unfortunately only a fool can fool a fool...that made me dizzy. As it has been mentioned, there is a lot more to the story of these....people that hasn't been seen by newcomers to their projects.

I launched my first project in April/May and am now currently active with my 3rd deck. That's 3 decks in almost a years time. I've learned along the way, listened to feedback, and evolved so I can produce quality and professional decks for my customers while remaining transparent throughout the process. This has created brand loyalty and appreciation to my customers. Alien Stink however has created 8 projects under 2 "brands" within an 8 month time frame....what does that show? The patience it takes to produce a quality product and fine tune your craft? Taking the time to figure out why your design may have failed? No, it shows a group of people desperate to make money at any cost. They are STILL shipping out decks to the backers of their first deck and already have a second version and separate deck running at the same time. Look at their success rate. The proof is in the numbers. This isn't about the quality of their designs, it's about their ethics. Every designer here that has had great success with KS has released approx. 2/3 decks within a year. Why? Because we have superior designs? Because we know how to market our products? Or MAYBE because we show an ounce of professionalism and respect to those who support us and not try to deceive and take advantage of their kindness.

I can go on and on about why people like this are killing KS decks, which is a shame because there is still potential rising through, but ill let the Planians or whatever they call themselves prove our points for us.