Codename Project Cleo - feedback welcome!

[Dolape]

Hi guys,

I would like to share with you the creation process for our new deck, which we are hoping will come to life in early 2020. Also, I would really like some feedback, of any sort. Please keep in mind that the design is just an idea of what it will be, mostly Pilar started doing some sketching and I will get into rearranging and fixing later on.

So, the idea is to work on something art-deco oriented. We are thinking of that blue and some red for the courts (entirely custom), with some sort of a geometric pattern behind them, mostly focused around gold. I personally would prefer silver, but I am not the artist The pattern is really just an idea so far, it will surely change.
I am also thinking how to best implement metallic inks so to make the images pop. Courts will be symmetric and all humans this time around, as this was one of the main concerns. I am leaning towards USPCC.

A few questions I would like to ask:
- The initial idea was to create a standard and a premium version, with same court cards but different coloring, and clearly different tucks. I am now leaning towards one only version, with foiling and possibly embossing on the tuck. How do you feel about that?
- Cellophane, seal (custom golden numbered), neither, both? They add up quite a bit to the price, so I am considering whether it makes sense to have them.
- Any other comment -positive or negative- on the design is welcome

Thank you all for the always interesting insight that you guys always share with me! I will be updating the first post with changes and improvements

[STLBluesNut]

I like the court figures and the background designs alone. I am not sure the low detail figures quite fit with the more detailed background. I am also not a fan of the harsh line separating the 2 halves of the court figures. Of course that could be just because they are early designs.

I also don't think the lady figure takes up enough of the card.

You like silver, the artist likes gold. I think copper is better than both and would look great with blue.

I just did a copper and blue painting and I love the color combination.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[Dolape]

I like the court figures and the background designs alone. I am not sure the low detail figures quite fit with the more detailed background. I am also not a fan of the harsh line separating the 2 halves of the court figures. Of course that could be just because they are early designs.

I also don't think the lady figure takes up enough of the card.

You like silver, the artist likes gold. I think copper is better than both and would look great with blue.

I just did a copper and blue painting and I love the color combination.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

Hey STL! Thanks a lot for your feedback

Yes, especially the background is just a sketch. I personally think that a lighter tone without shades of color would look more like a background (indeed) and take away less of the focus from the drawings themselves. About the two halves agree, will think about a way to make it look better.

Actually, copper was my very first idea, possibly influenced by falling in love with the Parisian deck. However, the blue we are thinking about also for the tuck caseis a bit darker than the one they used on their deck or than your painting, it will be closer to a greyish blackish shade. Hence my preference for silver or gold. I will make sure to share some tuck case and card comparison with the three colors when I have them. BTW, really like the color palette in your painting! May I ask what technique it is?

[STLBluesNut]

It is an acrylic pour painting. The hardest part is getting the paint consistency right. However, for someone without much of an artistic talent like myself, it is a great method for getting some really cool results.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[Dolape]

It is an acrylic pour painting. The hardest part is getting the paint consistency right. However, for someone without much of an artistic talent like myself, it is a great method for getting some really cool results.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

Ever thought about making those into a deck? Not sure if technically feasible, but the tuck case especially would look absolutely bananas!

[STLBluesNut]

I have not thought of that. I'm sure someone might be able to do something nice but I am not much of a designer. As I do not care for standard courts very much, I wouldn't make something like this a card back and go with standard for the rest and I do not have the knowledge or talent to customize courts and tuck design.

I have made a painting in incorporating pips though. I also have. A painting drying currently that I am going to do the same thing with in black, red, gold and white.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[Dolape]

Hi guys! A quick update, we are about halfway done and hoping to launch late March. Here some more pictures. As always, any sort of feedback and criticism is very welcome. I am especially interested on your opinion about how well the cards express a feeling, and on the chromatic balance.


I kind of stumbled upon a moral doubt. We will go with USPCC, which means MOQ of 1000 decks. I really think that this deck calls for a tuck with foil - but those of you who know a thing or two about cost of decks are aware of the cost of foil. I am not entirely sure that asking $18 for a deck (this is more or less the price we are talking about) is the best course of action for the campaign going forward.

[Harvonsgard]

Not a fan of this update to be honest. The faces are on one hand kind too busy for my liking, but on the other hand they have way too much white space as well, imo. The first draft looked a bit better, despite beeing even busier.

[MagikFingerz]

Not a fan of this update to be honest. The faces are on one hand kind too busy for my liking, but on the other hand they have way too much white space as well, imo. The first draft looked a bit better, despite beeing even busier.

I agree with this.

[Dolape]

Thanks a lot to both of you! That's why I do this, when you spend too much time on something it becomes hard to be objective in judging it

So, from both messages, what I understand is that the background needs to have a more horizontal orientation. I agree that white space is a bit too much, we were indeed trying to keep it more simple since the images are quite busy as you say. I am also thinking, maybe making the faces a bit bigger (therefore cutting some of the legs/lower body) could make them look better. We'll get on that.

[Adonael]

How did I not see this yet? It could be excellent. Definitely don't cut any of the body, art deco was very much about full elegant figures. The issue with the first draft wasn't so much the detail as the detail being disjointed, like separate elements rather than a cohesive whole of different parts interacting with eachother. I'm sure there is a suitable in-between to be found between the first and second draft. The white space does need to be filled out, but not by the figures themselves, I do like the overlapping concentric squares entangled with the figures, I think that's a great core to build off.

[Dolape]

How did I not see this yet? It could be excellent. Definitely don't cut any of the body, art deco was very much about full elegant figures. The issue with the first draft wasn't so much the detail as the detail being disjointed, like separate elements rather than a cohesive whole of different parts interacting with eachother. I'm sure there is a suitable in-between to be found between the first and second draft. The white space does need to be filled out, but not by the figures themselves, I do like the overlapping concentric squares entangled with the figures, I think that's a great core to build off.

Appreciate the nice comment

We have been brainstorming some ideas to slightly change the background. I hope I will be able to ask for some additional feedback on here very soon, trying to incorporate everything in the best way possible!

[Dolape]

Hey guys! Updating with some of the art. Please disregard the golden background, we are in the process of working on a better solution for the white space that I plan to share soon!

So, as said, the idea is a 1920 art deco themed deck. The name will be Guns, Jazz and Whiskey. Originally I wanted to make it longer and include "in Lower East Side", but it was probably a bit too long.
The pips will be Jazz, Mafia, Cops and Street characters. We are almost done with all the court cards art. Also the tuck case is basically done, I am learning how to render so that soon I will post that too, together with a dilemma for which I would like to have your opinion.
Any feedback, as always, is most welcome!
Thanks!

[Bradius]

I am liking the deck. I love art deco.

[Dolape]

Alright! I would like to pick your brain on a topic that is not usually discussed by creators, price - since I'm here asking for feedback, might as well do the whole thing.

I am pondering whether to release a tuck with or without foil. Here the situation: foil costs north of $2000 on 1000 decks, so there are two options:
- Option 1: foil is a stretch goal. Price per deck (EB): $12. Campaign goal: $6500
- Option 2: foil is in the baseline deck. Price per deck (EB): $17. Campaign goal: $9000

BTW, leaving the tuck render here below, will change it up a little bit but that's the basic structure. The foil would be the golden pattern and the lettering.

I have done some research, and have my own idea as to which option is better in my case, but I would still very much like some feedback. The two options are set up so that the number of decks to be sold is very similar at 100% (so we can say that they are almost the same to us in terms of profitability -or lack thereof, as you know if a project hits 100% and nothing more is hardly worth it).

I am liking the deck. I love art deco.

I am liking your comments Thanks a lot! Please feel free to bring up anything that you think we might improve

[Harvonsgard]

Option 1

[STLBluesNut]

I guess I don't feel like thinking too hard or crunching all the numbers, but if foil is $2 per deck, why does it add $5 per deck to begin the campaign with it?

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[Dolape]

I guess I don't feel like thinking too hard or crunching all the numbers, but if foil is $2 per deck, why does it add $5 per deck to begin the campaign with it?

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

Good question, I'll try not to be excessively boring:

I usually (and I think most do this) put the funding goal around the break even point. As said, this would be about 6.5k with std tuck, 9k with foiled tuck (and here is your 2.5k difference). In either case, if I hit 100%, profit will be basically zero. [I could be even more precise, and say that I try to include a buffer so that profit is zero in what I consider my worst case scenario, but I'll spare you that explanation ]

Now, what I am left to play with is price

With a price of €17, I'd need to sell about 400 decks to hit 100%. With a price of €14, the number goes up to almost 500 decks, just to break even. (This number is an estimation, as it strongly depends on where backers are, what is the average pledge, what is the ratio of early birds vs normal backers, add-ons, etc).

Again, at 100% sharp funded the profit is basically zero. Now, we could get in a long conversation about price elasticity (which I would be very happy to have ), but here my reasoning is more the following: researching past campaigns that have decks that I would consider similar to mine in terms of customization and print run, the price that I see works best for foiling is closer to $20 than to $10. Everything else being equal, I am more confident I can sell 400 decks at $17-18 than 500 at $14-$15. Which I know is annoying to hear for a collector (I am one!), but I have to be careful about that since we are on a shoestring

Hope I didn't bore everyone to death


Edit: BTW, I think this is why most projects offer standard deck, and foil as a stretch goal. Consider that foiling a deck basically doubles the cost of production, which in a Kickstarter setting (you get funded if you hit 100%) puts a big risk on the designer. It is far easier to produce a std tuck and only offer to foil it if you hit an amount of pledged funds for which you are positive that you're not losing money (option 1)

[Harvonsgard]

I am more confident I can sell 400 decks at $17-18 than 500 at $14-$15.

Interesting. I would have though vice versa but that is solely a guess from my site. I didn't do any market research so take it with a grain of salt. I feel like some collector's might be turned of by a higher deck prize.

[STLBluesNut]

I agree, even if the tuck features foil and embossing, no foil or metallics on the cards, my turn off point is around $15. I cannot explain it but even though $2 or $3 is not much in the grand scheme of things most of the time I won't pull the trigger unless the art is amazing and it is something I just have to have.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

[Dolape]

I am more confident I can sell 400 decks at $17-18 than 500 at $14-$15.

Interesting. I would have though vice versa but that is solely a guess from my site. I didn't do any market research so take it with a grain of salt. I feel like some collector's might be turned of by a higher deck prize.

I agree, even if the tuck features foil and embossing, no foil or metallics on the cards, my turn off point is around $15. I cannot explain it but even though $2 or $3 is not much in the grand scheme of things most of the time I won't pull the trigger unless the art is amazing and it is something I just have to have.

Sent from my S10+ using Tapatalk

Thank you both for your opinion

I don't disagree, but the way I see it (which again is very subjective and cannot be backed with data) is that there is a clear divide at around $13-$14 per deck. Anything more than that, the deck will be perceived as "premium", and (again, imho) there is not much difference between $15-$19 in the perception.

It would be very interesting to go and do some serious market analysis, the problem is that each project is different and there are just too many variables one should consider. This is especially true in projects that feature only one deck (so not the classical KS project with one unlimited deck and 1-2 additional limited decks for higher prices). Again, this -I believe- is why it's easier to get funded a project around $11-$13 per deck with foil as a stretch goal, it is just a more accepted price. One example of campaign that did a good job at funding one foiled deck for a "premium" price of $18 was Culturae Animalis last year, but in that case I believe it was just too beautiful a deck (and I am convinced it could have done even better at the std $11-$13 price point, but we'll never know). I am an absolute sucker for Jack's design

[Dolape]

Hi all! So, we went through a few ideas for the back. Here some examples. We have our favorite, but I am receptive of any feedback as always!



We thought about something more complex, but I feel like, in order to be in line with the style it needs to be simple. Here is something that I had sketched out, and also a very clear explanation of why I refrain from doing any drawing