Testament - The Relaunch!

[Albendon]

Good evening all,

I notice a few comments have already been made about my Testament deck on Kickstarter, and it was an interesting read - thank you!

So, it failed - which is OK, it wasn't a business proposition. However, I still really want to get this deck printed and out there - the feedback from the backers has been very receptive and there is a desire to get it out there.

So... can you help me get it right this time please!?

I've changed the back - but it can still be tweaked, and I'm considering switching to WJPCC. I know Sunish Chabba swears by them. I really appreciate the subtle gilding on his Kaleva deck, and I adore the feel of the Mirage deck by 'Full Custom 52' (even if there were other issues with the creator, the cards are great!).

So, I can offer Butter finish, Soft finish tuck, Gold Gilded, Custom seal and bonus cards all within reasonable cost, they also offer uncut sheets which I had a fair amount of enquiries about.

Any thoughts, comment, support or general natter to help this get off the ground next time?

Original campaign: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/25 ... bible-stor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Draft of new campaign: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/25 ... n=1aa55a18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The tuck box is possibly my next concern. I created the first one so that the Art and Classic ones had the same tuck, to look pretty on the shelf. But I prefer my first idea of a book:

[chicken_ql]

I really like the aces, jokers, card backs and the tuck box! I can't really get behind the court cards though personally. It's not that the art is bad, in fact, it's great! But they kind of just look like normal people standing and taking a picture somewhere whilst the aces, jokers, card backs and tuck feel a little more fantastical. Also, was there any specific reason these characters were chosen to be the kings, queens, and jacks?

TLDR; Really like aces, jokers, backs and tucks but would like court face images to fit a little better to the king, queen, and jack theme of playing cards? (is that the right way to word it?)

Keep up the great work and sorry they didn't fund the first time, I could tell alot of people liked your work!

[KingfisherZero]

I like the look of the tuck, although not a fan of the inner/outer deal. Would prefer it was just a more standard tuck, maybe opening from the side instead of the top to keep with the book look. I'll also say, particularly for the art deck, I agree with the decision to switch printers. While USPCC is the standard, I also don't think handling will be the kicker for this deck since it's way more about the look than the functionality.

I do think you did a phenomenal job with the aces in jokers in particular.

I'm genuinely looking forward to this deck being made and will be excited to support in its next iteration. It's an incredibly thoughtful approach to a potentially sensitive topic - coming across neither preachy nor mocking to Christianity, but rather paying homage to a clearly influential historical text.

[Decknowledgy]

Hi Ben, thanks for coming onto UC for feedback!
Personally, I like the new back design and the unique tuck box for the art edition. I was thinking though whether the blank spaces on the court cards could be reduced either by adding a bit of frame detail to the edges or adding an additional pip onto the blank spaces. Normally, there would be an added pip index next to the portrait of the J, Q, K.

Also, here is the thread that discusses the original KS campaign:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13271&p=151747

Maybe you may find some useful comments there as well!

[hsbc]

It's an incredibly thoughtful approach to a potentially sensitive topic - coming across neither preachy nor mocking to Christianity, but rather paying homage to a clearly influential historical text.

This I think is very true, you've got a really fine line to walk here. Personally I would focus on the historical/scholarly details - should appeal that way to both a secular audience, from a scholastic perspective, while still being appealing to a religious audience, and not being off-putting to either

And yes, the art is excellent - I bet that's why people are asking about uncut sheets Other art-focused decks have included art books and prints if you're looking for add-on ideas

You also might have trouble attracting cardists with WJPCC, have you looked into EPCC or even USPCC?

[STLBluesNut]

I already posted to the kickstarter preview so I won't repeat it all here. I really like this deck.

However, I am opposite from some of the comments above. While I like the aces, I would change the aces to match the courts in style, not the other way around.

I like the aces enough but they don't match the art of the courts. The aces look more like tattoo art and the courts look like paintings. I really like the court art.

Between the 4 aces, the heart appears out of place as well, the other 3 look like fine line art and and heart is filled in and less detailed.

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[Albendon]

Thank you so much everyone, there is much to consider - thank you. I don’t think I will change the aces. I did design them to be compatible with both the classic and art variants, though they are probably more suited to the classic. But I do see them as out of alignment a little with the art deck.
Bah, let me dwell on it!
I have had mixed reviews on. EPCC and legends, and USPC I think are out of my range. But these are not for cardistry.
The tuck is an option, a standard tuck but side opening.
I shall continue to ponder! Thank you!

[BaconWise]

Still loving this deck design and I hope you get funded this time around. When I saw this launch, I immediately thought of Xmas presents for at least six or seven couples. However, the artwork is simply too provocative to sit well with their traditionalist views. I will likely back this one for myself but maybe you can offer a "prude" deck so I can wow my family with some well-made works of art without getting shunned? Lol. Good luck and truly fantastic work on these.

[Albendon]

Actually, not such a crazy idea. Could be a stretch goal.

[Nova]

I think your have a interesting concept and the art is, as said above very well made.

However my main concern would be the lack of synergy with the cards. The courts, beautiful as they are seem a little bit too random for the uniformity that is normally 4 kings, 4 queens and 4 jacks. Also the aces are off, Compared to the standard edition they miss the background that the courts have and compared to the arts edition they have too much white space compared to the court carts.

It might be worth considering making a set of different aces especially for the art deck. I think the things that are depicted like the three of knowlegde could be very well made in an alternate full art form that is less abstract. Then people who appreciate the current aces will still have them in the standard edition but you will give the art edition increased artistic value and synergy.

Also based in the UK you might consider Cartamundi as an alternative to the printers already mentioned.

Now on a final note I would maybe consider a booklet or some separate printed artwork on a bigger size (postcard size maybe?). This has multiple advantages, first of all the art is very nice, so I wouldn't hurt getting some bigger sized prints of it. Furthermore it can be used to increase the average pledge amount.. Thirdly you could use a booklet or the backspace or the artprints to tell a little more about your deck, the characters and the meaning/purpose.

Because your deck will also appeal to people that are not familiair with religion and it is a very nice and beautiful way to make people interested or more familiair with the subject. However I think some explanation or booklet explaining why these cards (or any cards for that matter) should not be used for gambling from a religion point of view will generate more understanding and interest then a seal simply prohibiting this kind of use. I hope I do not step on any toes here, because I like your artwork and the way you present a sensitive subject. But some more informative background info would generate more understanding as addition to the current seal as to your deck and the meaning of it in general.

[BaconWise]

Actually, not such a crazy idea. Could be a stretch goal.

Perhaps don't call it a "Prude" deck, though Maybe Traditionalist or Conservative Deck? *shrug*

[Eric Lee]

This redesign is definitely better. Love the backs. Blue and gold definitely looks better than the original red and gold. Love the full art of the jokers. On other technical stuff, I would highly recommend putting a white outline on the indices of the courts and jokers. Just so they don't get lost or blend into the artwork.

I'm surprised I didn't suggest earlier the booklet. (as I'm usually the one asking for it in other KS projects) Yes, definitely a booklet with larger art and background!

As for the tuck. I love the book look and feel of it. Don't add the double layer book and words, especially if it mean an increased cost. Keep it to just the book, and maybe a stretch goal to have the double layer.

I'm ok with most of the courts, but can't help wonder if the theme of the suits should tie in better as mentioned earlier. Red for heroes of faith, black for fallen.

You have the family theme for 1/2 the suits too. So if that's the case, can't help feel that the diamond courts should be Moses, Miriam and Aaron, since they were family after all and crucial to the Exodus. Spades then should be Abraham, Sarah and Isaac since all doubted initially but then were restored, if you want to keep Abraham as the key figure.

But if you want to break the family theme, then the JoC should be Abel while Cain should be the King of Spades, since he was the first murderer and will go more in line with Samson and Delilah. Or it could be Portiphar's wife as the QoS to break any link.

Sorry to add to this as I know it's hard to redo so much. But something to consider. This is looking good and glad you came aboard the wacky ship UC with this!

[Albendon]

Wow, OK - early morning here in the UK and I've caught up in the threads and IG and KS comments.

So much to take in! Thank you, with all humility.

I've got:

Disparity between courts and aces- I agree with this, the aces were primarily designed to go with the clean background classic deck and to match the numbered cards, not the courts. I will repaint one and see how it looks.

Single layer tuck - To be honest, the extra sleeve is pennies and doesn't impact the cost. The feedback on the two layers is up and down, but does swing quite strongly in the positive.

Additional index on classic deck – space filler/traditional. Yup, love this, so simple - when the classic is launched this will be in place.

EPCC /USPCC / Cartamundi - This was always going to be the biggest area of contention. EPCC I've seen so many mixed reviews on, the decks I have are 'OK' but I hit the minimum order wall again. Cartamundi is more expensive than USPCC (but 'wow' to house of the rising spade!) for a less respected brand. USPCC - I can't see this deck being popular enough to cover the cost (as partly evidence on the failed KS). Sunish Chabba has had a lot of success with WJPCC, and the decks I have are good, certainly no USPCC but I'm not aiming specifically at cardistry or magic - though I have included a gaff card for fun.
I've had talks with all the manufacturers, and bought decks from each in many variants. NPCC have been a great support in the past and the art quality is high, but the cards are clumpy. They offered a new coating to me for this run, but it's a gamble. I have the 'Mirage' deck, and I love the butter finish, and the tuck soft velvet feel. They also offer gilding like the Kalevala deck, which appeals to me more than the high gloss gilding to fit the feel of the deck. I do realise this will potentially reduce backers who are cautious of other brands, but I am placing hope in the quality of the art and tuck to sway more towards the collector part of their brains!

Ace of hearts - You know what, I hadn't even thought about that. I wanted the AoH to reflect the Heart of Christ enough for people to take it out and keep it alone in their wallet as a stand alone piece of Christian Art, OK - confession, my wife like to keep my AoH's in her purse.

Conservative deck - It wouldn't be difficult to add chest cover to Cain. Adam and Eve are another matter, I don't really know how to cover them without coming away from the story. Delilah, I could up the neck line. Jokers, these are based on traditional paintings and statues, quite often depicted with a breast showing or wearing revealing flowing gowns. The Succubus is by her very nature that way, and is described as such in religious text, biblical and Dead Sea scrolls. I have tried to keep them safe for work, but I also see they could be taken other ways. I had considered using the Hag and Judas, that could have been a safer option. The poster for the angel Joker has already been coveted, so apparently this is still a popular design despite possible provocative implications.

Aces – background . painted. As above, I'm going to try this and see how it looks. It will be out of keeping with the other numbered cards though so it depends on is it a court or a number?

Booklet – add on / included? Yes! I would prefer a stretch goal, I will look into the cost and build it in.

Add-ons post cards/posters. I have these planned, I was going to offer them after funding the deck, I don't want to run the risk of the project being funded on add-ons. These will also increase postage. I have had a quote from Gamblers Warehouse for adding a postcard set to the package and it is reasonable. I'm having some test prints made, I already have had the poster test prints done which look great.

Explanation around gambling caveat - Very good shout, consider it added!

White outline to indices - I'll try that and post it here.
Other family characters - Aha, a future spoiler! If this funds, I plan to create more decks with different characters. If I keep the same background then the owners can create their own decks! I tried to create the first deck with as many instantly recognisable characters as I could to grab interest, and then look to launch more if there is a market for them.

Wow, OK, so I have some work to do. Please keep the feedback coming, everything can be changed/tweaked/improved with relative ease.

Stay safe,

Ben

*Edit - Dead sea Scrolls, not Red Sea... <face palm>

[STLBluesNut]

It is great that you have connected here and are taking the feedback excellently. I look forward to see some of the changes, especially the aces.

Put me in the like list for the 2 piece tuck as well. Pulling out the inner box with metallic ink or foil wording would be great.

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[Albendon]

The simple tweaks:

Updated KS campaign to show reasons behind no gambling rule, amended stretch goal order. Added some clarity around the Jokers. Added add-on's.

With the add-ons, they are pretty much cost neutral, so wont significantly influence the funding of the deck, but I don't want to make them un-accessible - I am concerned if we hit the target with add-ons included then this could leave me short on the deck costs. I can cover this myself, within reason, but would it be unreasonable or negative to hold back the add-ons until the deck has funded?

I've tried the stroke on the indices, I'm not keen - it impacts the art. However, this may be more appealing as a deck of cards? Thoughts?

(against 2 different background shades):

Thank you again!

Ben

[Eric Lee]

The white outline on the indices definitely makes it more visible on my screen.

IMHO, however, if Samson is going to be blind, shouldn't he be in prison or at the pillars? I get and like the whole symbolism with Delilah's bed being his downfall and enslavement. But that may be too vague for those not familiar with the story; as most will only know him for his strength, not that he was blinded. That will depend on your target audience I suppose.

Jesus is just too blond and white for me. I would prefer he have black hair and browner/olive skin tone to reflect his Jewish/Mid east ancestry like you did with the other characters.

[Decknowledgy]

Concerning Samson, I agree with Ben's art though. With only one card to show the whole nature of his personality, integrating his blindness for lust with his strength is at the best, and after all, he's still chained up on the wrists. I believe this is portraying the moment he lowered his guard and had his hair cut off by Delilah.

Jesus, on the other hand, I agree with Eric that he's a bit too Caucasian. Color tone render might be sufficient since this is already a final artwork with not much space for redraws.

[Albendon]

Thank you - and thank you for your comments regarding Sampson. I was trying to tie up a lot of story in one/two cards and this was what I came up with. Stopped short of sticking a donkeys jaw in his hands and jar of Honey in the background. Now reconsidering!

As for Jesus, I think this turned out rather well, thoughts?:
*Edit - I'll add the halo back later

[Decknowledgy]

Jesus V2 is spot on! (now I have to go and confess )

[Albendon]

Thank you everyone, your support and comments are genuinely appreciated. I have tried to take on all of the feedback and look at it again.
I have not changed everything, there are some areas I feel quite strongly about, and after reviewing the new images - I have decided to revert to the old, time will tell of my wisdom!?

Disparity between courts and aces- I have completed a few drafts of the painted version. Although they match better with the courts, they are now too different from the numbers. I feel the Aces should better match in line with the standard cards, not the courts. I like it, but I also like plan A, so I have defaulted back.

Single layer tuck - Sticking with the double, this is an improved tuck on the first campaign and have mad great feedback.

Additional index on classic deck – If/when the classic deck gets launched, this will be there. I am also looking at the cards with a different divide then the 'blend'.

EPCC /USPCC / Cartamundi - I know, and I do get it, honestly. I just feel the desire for the theme of this deck will not achieve the cost of these runs, I don't want a 2nd failure - people are unlikely to back me a 3rd time.

Ace of hearts - Again, I really get this. and perhaps this is a selfish gamble, but I want to run with it. I have redrawn it in the style of the others but it just doesn't carry the same way. There's something unique about the imagery of the heart of Christ. I was tempted to play with this for longer, but I don't think I would be happy with the results.

Conservative deck - I can redo Cain, but Adam/Eve/Delilah all carry a story related to their image and is in line with the biblical descriptions. The succubus is just that, and the angle is tame in comparisons to the renaissance period.

Aces – background . painted. As above, this detracts from them being a number card as opposed to a court.

Booklet – yup! in as an add-on, thank you.

Add-ons post cards/posters. all now included, thank you.

Explanation around gambling caveat - I have updated the description to include this, thank you for pointing this out.
White outline to indices - tried it, didn't like it.
Other family characters - next time!

Thank you all again, I am planning to launch over Easter, which seemed somewhat appropriate! I didn't want to completely redesign and redo everything. My only concern is launching at the same time as the amazing Parlour Playing cards, I do hope everyone has not empties their bank accounts on that one! (but a very different deck!)

Stay safe,

Ben

[Decknowledgy]

This is looking sharp and awesome!!
I'm in for at least a pair; there'll be friends and families who will definitely be fascinated by the artwork

[Albendon]

Ok, we are live... wish me luck!

[robcan0630]

Link for convenience: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/25 ... -the-bible" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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[Bradius]

I like the project and wish I could be in, but with all I am backing right now, I can't join. I wish it luck and it looks like it will fund.

[MagikFingerz]

I wish there was at least a stretch goal for the Classic edition, I thought the two decks was a good pairing in the same project. And as a non-US collector, I don't like paying shipping twice

[Albendon]

Happy to do that! Your are spot on, double postage is a pointless expense and helps no-one (except the postal companies!) I’ll add it as a stretch and if we don’t hit it then i’ll try and work something out. Let me do the maths when I get home from work.
Ben

[MagikFingerz]

Happy to do that! Your are spot on, double postage is a pointless expense and helps no-one (except the postal companies!) I’ll add it as a stretch and if we don’t hit it then i’ll try and work something out. Let me do the maths when I get home from work.
Ben

Awesome! Thanks, Ben

[Albendon]

Stretch goal is going to look ambitious... at the very least would need to be £2,000 extra just to see it not running a risk of impacting my pocket too much, on top of existing stretch goals that would put it at a £6,000 target. I could then make them available at a 'post to america then post out worldwide' price (as the goal would cover the print cost) so around £6 a deck no extra postal charge (KS would take £1.20 of that in fees) plus I build in a 'dropped pledge' rate based on my previous campaigns. I might be able to squeeze a little off that, but it will still look ambitious. Perhaps £5 if buying more than 2.

Perhaps I should wait until the project is funded? I don't want to attract buyers who would drop out if the stretch goal is not achieved?

Thoughts?

Ben