Outlaw Playing Cards

[Oscar53955]

New deck from Kings & Crooks. Launching on Kickstarter January 16 at 12pm PST

[Räpylätassu]

Watching all the crap put out recently and every good deck that has been put out recently being in early stages I just feel like that I freaking need a good deck.

[portcullis]

Gotta agree with you Räpylätassu, it's been pretty slim pickings of late. Tuck looks awesome, let's hope it carries through.

[Bikefanatic]

interested to see what Lee does next which this deck will be very different than the Empire series. I'm not expecting anything, if the deck is better than good I'll buy. Whenever he finally gets the warrior card case made, I'll buy it.

[badpete69]

Nice stuff Can't wait for Lee's new project.
Still waiting for my warrior metal guard after almost 4 years but it will come one day. Lee has kept us updated over the years.
What sucks is the timing of the new Outlaws deck that just came out... Oh well it is just a title

[badpete69]

Now live

[vasta41]

Great deck- didn't doubt that. But $15? I'll have to think on it.
**Insert "when I was a kid" reference here**

[serubi]

Great deck- didn't doubt that. But $15? I'll have to think on it.
**Insert "when I was a kid" reference here**

[TGunitedcardists]

I like the Joker, but after that, not my cup of tea. A $19,000 USD goal is ambitious.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Not impressed. They're not bad, though.

[caniveski]

love the courts. postage to UK an issue, will back tho

[Bradius]

I am okay with the deck, but not the price. I too am going to look from the sidelines on this one. That said, I am seeing these kinds of prices more and more and the only way to sometimes get the price down is to buy several, and I am just not going to that right now unless the deck just blows me away.

Congrats though on reaching nearly $10k already. A lot of playing cards never get that much pledged.

[leemckenzie]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for the comments. All valid points which I hope to expand on a little more here.

Firstly, I agree this deck has a very specific look as is probably not for everyone, which I'm ok with. I absolutely love it, which is why I made it haha. But yeah, not everyones tastes.

With regards to the price (here we go haha), I had to go and get a third party to help with produce tuck box as USPC pricing was way too steep. If the deck was completely done with USPC, it would barely be worth doing at all. I'm not a big business who knows they can move 5000+ units every week. It's just me. So unless you invest in a large minimum like 5,000 + and don't use specialized processes (foils, emboss, custom seals etc), it's steep. I'm also using a third party for the custom seal for the same reason. USPS were not willing to allow a custom die shape unless a significant amount were being produced. It's not worth it stop all production to test the equipment unless you're willing to pay a large fee too, which would add again to the cost.

So in an effort to keep the project do-able at a small run, we end up having all these multiple elements to help control the cost. They all need to be shipped across the country, then assembled/seals applies and cello wrapped, and store/fulfilled by US partners to allow shipping costs to be included for US backers. it's quite a mission. Rather than just have everything done in one place, which would be easier, but more costly. So in doing all this, it's slightly more affordable, but still significant and requires much more management and effort to produce all the while. But I know price is important, so I had to try and make it work.

USPS have rate increase every year too, with another coming in a few days, which I hope doesn't mess everything up when it comes to shipping time. With Kickstarter, they include any shipping costs paid as part of the overall funding goal. Some forget this or have no reference for working it out and so loose a hell of a lot on shipping. I wanted to be sure, based on my past projects, that we're covered for the average expected shipping costs once we reach our goal.

Approximately $7 - 8,000 of the goal will be soaked up by shipping/fulfillment expenses and Kickstarters fee schedule alone. That's insane, but you have to consider it or get caught short and have to find that yourself.

Just a note on the nature of the project. This is not a side project for me, or a fun past time. It's my full-time career, business aswell as a passion. If I were to price this so it was a total no-brainer for everyone (which would be awesome by the way, everyone loves a deal including myself), and maybe end up with $1-$2 profit per deck to live off, this would all come to a halt and I'd never be able to design cards again. Or at least make any kind of living from it. I believe I have some deck designs that people would really enjoy, and I love doing it, so I'm trying to continue doing so. Based on what I see around, I tried to balance a good price for a good value product. And considering all fulfillment, materials, shipping, assembly, and 3 separate elements of production are covered in each deck price, I felt it was a justified price. Especially compared to some other similar projects.

Apart from places like E, T11, D&D and a few others, it seems most other deck creators just do it on the side, not as a full-time thing.

If I consistently sold 30,000+ decks a year (which is waaaaay out of my league), it would be so much easier to get the cards made for cheaper, and then offer them cheaper and only make a $1 or 2 per deck and make a living. But that's a long way for me, if ever. So if I fail before then, so be it. But I have to try and give it my best shot and do what I believe is right in the given circumstances.

I'm certainly not trying to rip anyone off and put people off. This isn't some phantom rivate reserve for $500. I would have taken the money and ran with the other projects if I was that type of person. I'm familiar with whats involved and want to make sure we don't end up in a position were things fall apart due to naive planning and everyone ends up with nothing. But I also understand, that may not suit some people, and others may jump in and not blink an eye. We all have our perspectives.

Thanks for hearing me out guys, I really appreciate it. And thank you for voicing all of your concerns, I appreciate the honesty and couldn't ask for anything more. And while I'm not keen on spending hours explaining myself so I'm not misunderstood (and if I'm honest, feeling a little deflated like I've let you down while doing so), I hope it helps somewhat.

Each of us have our own circumstances and perspective, but I just wanted you to know what's involved in making it, and why I made the choices I did. Honesty is important, whether it's what we want to hear or not. So thank you all again.

All the best, and keep the card love alive!

[Adonael]

I like the courts, and I love that bearded skull, having recently played Mad Max (which is a great game) I'm definitely feeling this. I still find it hilarious when US backers complain about price (with shipping included too FFS!), if they only could appreciate how good they have it in regard to playing cards.

[portcullis]

Yeah as an Australian, pledging in AUD for an AU campaign and then having to pay shipping [in this case =1/3rd of my pledge] is just a little galling. Still making up my mind if I wanna pledge or not.

[rkoch78]

I am far from the outlaw, motorcycle gang or rebel lifestyle depicted in these cards but I think the artwork and design is outstanding on this deck.

As far as the deck price itself, it is ~$13 USD if you pledge for at least 2...which I would assume most people here would do; if not more. You might be able to get a similar quality deck from T11 or Ellusionist for a little cheaper...but, as Lee said, he does not work on the scale that they do; so he has to price it where he can make a decent profit for himself. Being fairly cheap myself (cannot afford Lotrek quality decks), I think the pricing is pretty fair.

On the shipping, I get that people outside the US might have a gripe with the cost...but the cards and tuck are being made here; so makes sense that they would be shipped from here. If you are in the US, there should be no complaints on free shipping (IMO). Especially considering that most online sites within the US that sell custom decks charge for shipping to the US; including Art of Play (unless you spend $75+).

[Räpylätassu]

I like this! I hope it gets funded!

[Orioncap]

I quite like the feel of this deck and have backed, i know people complain about the costs of the decks these days but i have looked into having a deck printing myself and the costs can really hit hard for a hi quality job.

[Azid]

Hell Riders unlocked !
Limited Edition, marked.
Available as add on.
Full info here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ki ... ts/2100899" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[vasta41]

I like that WAY better than the original! I wish there was a way to just pledge for that alone.

[RichK]

I like that WAY better than the original! I wish there was a way to just pledge for that alone.

Why not PM Lee and ask if you pledge 1 dollar can you just add that deck? Can't hurt.

[vasta41]

Turns out the original jokers (giving the middle finger) were denied by the USPCC and Lee had to re-draw them:


Still a great design IMO but how silly of USPCC. Per the latest KS update:

I addressed USPC's legal department and presented a counter-proposal in defence of the artwork. In my eyes (not a legal term apparently , it had not crossed any of their Offensive Artwork Policy, and certainly not as much as some other decks they've produced in the past have. I stated a passionate but fact based response, and communicated that the nature of the Outlaw art is not condoning violence or hatred. It's the spirit of a bold, rebellious and inspiring message to encourage people to go their own way, do what matters them and be who you are regardless of what the world tells you to be. Also, to remove any legal responsibility on their behalf, I would happily sign a legal document that would restrict me from associating this deck with USPC in anyway, removing the credit from the box and never mentioned the 2 in connection to each other going forward.

No dice. The response was, if they allowed my "middle finger" artwork to go through, they would have to allow any others to go through (and there have been many apparently). So if I wanted to have USPC print the cards, I would have to change the artwork. It's black and white. And I can't see their point of view and the possible back-lash they may have to deal with should someone have an issue with it and want to sue them. You know, one of "those" types of people.

Resolution - I certainly don't need to tell you about the quality of playing cards produced by the United States Playing Card Co. Magicians and card players the world over know of their quality. Brands like Theory 11, Ellusionist, Dan & Dave and others use USPC for their own cards for good reason.

Although Taiwan manufacturing (through Legends or Expert Playing Card Co. has produced some very high quality cards, the same goes for long-standing Cartamundi in Belgium. But at the end of the day, this is a USA themed deck primarily, and should be made by the greatest US playing card producers on a premium card stock and finish that makes it among the highest quality decks in the world. I've loved USPCs cards since my first deck at 11 years old, so for all these reasons, I'm sticking with USPC and will modify the Joker art.

[Merlebird]

Turns out the original jokers (giving the middle finger) were denied by the USPCC and Lee had to re-draw them:


Still a great design IMO but how silly of USPCC.

100%, unequivocally agree. It's USPCC's "rationale" here, I think, that rankles me:

The response was, if they allowed my "middle finger" artwork to go through, they would have to allow any others to go through (and there have been many apparently).

Now, IANAL, but this just doesn't wash for me. USPCC is a big, influential printer, sure, but they're not an arm of the federal government; they don't have a legal obligation to be consistent. They should have fairly broad editorial control over what they do or don't print, including for subjective reasons ("artistic merit," etc.), the same as any publisher, no? I guess there's a difference in business model, in that a book publisher buys manuscripts and USPCC is not buying Lee's designs. I dunno. I just think it's a shame.

EDIT: Substitute jokers are now up for a vote in the latest backer update:

[vasta41]

Wow, USPCC is killing Lee- more "birds" had to be taken out but I gotta say I love how he handled it:

[Merlebird]

So, we ran into a few more issues with some middle fingers that USPC didn't catch first time around. With all the focus on the Joker issues it didn't get flagged.

What the hell kind of church ladies are running USPCC that they got this discombobulated at the sight of a middle finger...? This is just embarrassing. You'd think the very first thing a professional adult would've done is checked the entire deck for the same issue once they spotted it.

I'm having an even harder time understanding their hangups now that I've opened and looked at Gio's Eva deck, which was also USPCC. A deck full of nipples that could poke out the very eyes of God is no problem, but a couple middle fingers and suddenly everybody in Erlanger has to take to the office fainting couch?

That's my fainting couch. I need it to read the news.

[Räpylätassu]

I honestly don't understand you Americans... Always preaching on about freedom, but oh no we can't have cursing in any form or *gasp* a female nipple or *faints* a middle finger.

Here in Finland, nudity is normal and nothing to be ashamed of, cursing can be a form of experssing yourself and a we don't censor middle fingers because honestly it's nothing shocking.

[Bradius]

A deck full of nipples that could poke out the very eyes of God

That was funny.

Now if you notice closely, the new image has her thumb crossing her fingers. Maybe she should be exposing her breasts too. It worked for Gio.

[Merlebird]

I honestly don't understand you Americans... Always preaching on about freedom, but oh no we can't have cursing in any form or *gasp* a female nipple or *faints* a middle finger.

I'm in agreement with you that none of those things need or merit the treatment they get in the US. What I was trying to get at was that media companies and publishers here will usually treat swearing, sex and nudity as a single category and their handling of all "mature content" is usually consistent across that category. So it seems very strange for them to understand artistic nudity, but not artistic profanity/irreverence.

Did you ever see that George Carlin bit about the seven words you can't say on TV? This is like USPCC decided Words #3 and 7 were all-ages appropriate but #2 was right out.

It's a highly selective and irrational prudishness even for us, was my point.

[sinjin7]

I would like to remind people to NOT conflate the Constitutionally provisioned freedom of expression and speech we have here in the United States with the rules and regulations of a privately owned company. The Federal and state governments shall not infringe upon an individual's right to free expression and speech, but the USPCC is also free to impose whatever guidelines they deem consistent with the public image they wish to portray of themselves.

Lee can flip as many birds as he wants (or flash nipple) in his art and the U.S. government won't stop that, but if the USPCC, a private company, feels his art violates any of their guidelines (even if we personally believe them to be inconsistent) they absolutely can stop Lee. Keep in mind that a broad spectrum of USPCC's business is producing family games for children. It's within their right to determine what art is permissible on their products and what art is not.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I think an understandable line can be drawn here. The nature of the Eva deck is that of sins/lust. Nudity of the female form is essential. I don't recall many fingers being flipped in all 7 seasons of Sons of Anarchy. I just think that the sin of lust requires nudity. Outlaws don't require the middle finger. That's the only logical conclusion that I can draw. I'm not saying that the USPCC and its decisions are always logical, of course...

I do like how the back design change was handled. Well done.