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Hey guys hows it going?

I would like to know your opinion about this one.

Basicaly this deck was designed for everyone, magicians, cardists, players and collectors.

I'll be launching this campaing on kickstarter in the following days so stay tuned!

You'll be able to pick between two editions. Purple edition and black edition (only the back color variates) or you can get both if you want!

Main features:

-Bee stock casino.
-Traditional cut.
-Linen finish (known as air-cushion)
-Custom seal
-54 playing cards + 2 extra cards.
-Standard faces.

Manufacturation by USPCC.
Fulfillment by Gambler's Warehouse.
Both editions will be limited so get yours because it won't be reprinted.
Tuck box is still under modifications, so it might change from now to the launch. (Hopefully it will be gold foiled)

It's not going to make it. Too basic and boring for the tuck and back design.

Yeah. I suspect the price point is going to end up being higher than people are going to be willing to pay for the features / design.

vedus wrote:Yeah. I suspect the price point is going to end up being higher than people are going to be willing to pay for the features / design.

I'm fully aware the price can't be high and believe me it wont be.

So I might think about launching the purple edition later.

In what ways is this deck designed for magicians and cardists?

sinjin7 wrote:In what ways is this deck designed for magicians and cardists?

A magician uses standard faces cards to perform tricks because if you use a custom deck people might think your deck is tricked or something (From my own experience). So this decks has a small color variation on court cards, the rest is standard to perform tricks having no problem.

A cardist needs a long-lasting deck to train and perform flourishes, also he needs a good handling deck. The design is important too, so when you make a fan or a riffling action the back will generate a good effect.

sinjin7 wrote:In what ways is this deck designed for magicians and cardists?

I'm guessing the groundbreaking white borders and standard courts are for the magicians.

As for cardists...

RoyalSecretCards wrote:A magician uses standard faces cards to perform tricks because if you use a custom deck people might think your deck is tricked or something (From my own experience). So this decks has a small color variation on court cards, the rest is standard to perform tricks having no problem.

I never bought that argument that standard courts on custom decks somehow alleviate suspicion. The courts represent only 12 of the 54 cards in a deck, that's less than 25% of a deck. In a typical "pick a card, any card" routine, 3 out of 4 times the spectator never even sees a court card, and zero times if you use a force. Plus, the custom backs are much more visible than courts, and to a lesser degree, so are the custom Ace of Spades and Jokers. So the argument is that spectators won't have any suspicions when the back of every card and the AoS and Jokers are custom just because the 12 courts are standard? Sorry, that doesn't make any logical sense. If a spectator is inclined to be suspicious of a deck just because the courts are not standard, then they'll be suspicious due to the custom backs and Aces and Jokers as well, and you're better off sticking with Rider Backs in that case. Magic is all about misdirection, and effective patter should get any skilled and experienced magician past spectator suspicions about trick decks just because a deck is fully custom, including custom courts.

When you said this deck is made for magicians, I expected hidden reveals in the Jokers or the tuck box or something like that. Or the inclusion of a couple of gaff cards, at the very least a double-backer or blank face card. It doesn't appear you have any of these magician-friendly aids.

RoyalSecretCards wrote:A cardist needs a long-lasting deck to train and perform flourishes, also he needs a good handling deck. The design is important too, so when you make a fan or a riffling action the back will generate a good effect.

I agree with everything you mention in the statement above. As to the durability and handling, you automatically have that covered by printing with the USPCC. But I'm not sure I see anything design-wise that would appeal to cardists. Certainly the monochromatic back design does nothing to lend itself to standing out in any flourishing routine, nor do the wide borders on the backs of the cards. The circular center design is nice for card spins, but the corner flowers are too far into the card to make much difference in most fans and your side borders are not distinctive enough to look good in spreads.

I have a personal pet peeve about Latin phrases on the backs (or anywhere else). Most people don't know what it means and no one gives a damn. It just comes off as pretentious and adds nothing design-wise. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the back design on this deck, its decent. But when the courts are merely standard, then a decent back design alone won't get this deck over the hump. Its very easy to claim a deck is so all-purpose that its suitable for magicians, cardists, players, collectors, and everyone else in the world, but much more difficult to actually execute such a deck.

Gotta agree with some other guys here. I kinda like the back, but the tuck looks like a first draft, definitely needs a lot of work. Maybe a few years ago it could have scraped by but these days it's a tough and crowded market, which is why I dread the day I post my own designs lol. I personally skip every project with standard courts (well almost, some are exceptional otherwise).

Hi sinjin, I'm not well-versed in the world of kickstarter card design but let me offer my thoughts - "I never bought that argument that standard courts on custom decks somehow alleviate suspicion."

Sadly this is just not true. An overwhelming majority of magicians absolutely do NOT use any non-standard courts or pips. Pretty much everything on kickstarter is almost an automatic disqualification for a magician. 99% use bikes/tally-hos/phoenixes anyway, and those who don't use mostly ellusionist or theory11 cards - all of which have almost completely standard courts and pips.

Conversely, I understand that Daniel Madison is regarded as a hack on these forums with what people consider poor designs, but his designs are immensely popular with the magic crowd, especially the younger folks. Part of it is due to his fame + persona and the backing of ellusionists brand power, but the other, more important part is that the decks are standard enough to fly by in performance scenarios. Give a magician any of the fancy art decks - those day of the dead decks or the Thirdway Industries decks or whatever, and give them even the most hated Madsion design, and 99% would pick the Madison decks.

So in terms of target market, if the target for this deck is magicians, then its a-ok. Nobody would complain when handed this deck to perform. Whether its likely to succeed in kickstarter, a market dominated by card collectors is a different matter. Of course, after removing the collector market, whether it has anything to offer when compared to a $3 pack of bikes is a question to consider.

OP, please take a look at the recently failed "Foliage" playing cards. Made by magician Sam Porter and artist Nick Vlow. Its got basically the same things that your deck has - custom back and recolored courts. It failed - twice, even with promotion from big youtube channels and websites. I think if you're looking to make a worker deck, take a look at the Ravn playing cards. They cracked the key to success for workers decks on kickstarter. Standard face cards, customised faces on the courts to reel in the magicians, combined with a very sexy back design and high quality art on the ace and jokers to reel in the collectors.

pushkar000 wrote:Hi sinjin, I'm not well-versed in the world of kickstarter card design but let me offer my thoughts - "I never bought that argument that standard courts on custom decks somehow alleviate suspicion."

Sadly this is just not true. An overwhelming majority of magicians absolutely do NOT use any non-standard courts or pips. Pretty much everything on kickstarter is almost an automatic disqualification for a magician. 99% use bikes/tally-hos/phoenixes anyway, and those who don't use mostly ellusionist or theory11 cards - all of which have almost completely standard courts and pips.

sinjin7 wrote:If a spectator is inclined to be suspicious of a deck just because the courts are not standard, then they'll be suspicious due to the custom backs and Aces and Jokers as well, and you're better off sticking with Rider Backs in that case.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue, pushkar, but sinjin is addressing how SPECTATORS (ie laymen) are supposedly suspicious of custom courts and not anything else, not that magicians don't use semi-custom decks. Also, the higlighted parts shows that you're basically making the same point.

Another thing: By your own estimate - if 99% of magicians use standard decks, then how could a custom deck ever appeal to magicians in general? And how, then, can Madison's decks be "immensely popular"? Are there that many magicians in the world that 1% (or the fraction of that who don't just use E/T11 decks) is enough people to be considered a decent chunk of the playing card purchasing market?

Just trying to understand the reasoning here.

sinjin7 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the back design on this deck, its decent. But when the courts are merely standard, then a decent back design alone won't get this deck over the hump. Its very easy to claim a deck is so all-purpose that its suitable for magicians, cardists, players, collectors, and everyone else in the world, but much more difficult to actually execute such a deck.

Alright, I get you mate and thanks for your opinion, its great to know different points of view.

Adonael wrote:Gotta agree with some other guys here. I kinda like the back, but the tuck looks like a first draft, definitely needs a lot of work. Maybe a few years ago it could have scraped by but these days it's a tough and crowded market, which is why I dread the day I post my own designs lol. I personally skip every project with standard courts (well almost, some are exceptional otherwise).

I can't deny the fact that nowadays decks are fully customized (Some are great and some sucks) and thats what collectors like, Indeed. So probably if I make magicians a priority, failure is almost guaranteed on KS. T

pushkar000 wrote:
So in terms of target market, if the target for this deck is magicians, then its a-ok. Nobody would complain when handed this deck to perform. Whether its likely to succeed in kickstarter, a market dominated by card collectors is a different matter. Of course, after removing the collector market, whether it has anything to offer when compared to a $3 pack of bikes is a question to consider.

OP, please take a look at the recently failed "Foliage" playing cards. Made by magician Sam Porter and artist Nick Vlow. Its got basically the same things that your deck has - custom back and recolored courts. It failed - twice, even with promotion from big youtube channels and websites. I think if you're looking to make a worker deck, take a look at the Ravn playing cards. They cracked the key to success for workers decks on kickstarter. Standard face cards, customised faces on the courts to reel in the magicians, combined with a very sexy back design and high quality art on the ace and jokers to reel in the collectors.

I'm completely agree with what you say, and makes me think it twice about releasing my project soon.

I truly think now this decks need more design, not only its back (which looks decent to me now but I feel like it can be better) also court cards and obviously the box.

Thanks everyone who shared opinions, I'm grateful and open to read more comments.

Have a great day!

99% was not literal. I wanted to say that the majority use bikes. That is not to say that people don't use custom decks, otherwise e and t11 wouldn't exist. I don't have the numbers, but I'm willing to bet that a large majority of their sales are driven through their custom decks, since in other categories they are competing with penguin and vanishing inc who dominate the market for magic products. E in particular is famous in magic circles for being filled with garbage in the magic section, and with big figures like Chris Ramsay and Daniel Madison spearheading their playing cards, its hard not to see e having a huge portion of their sales driven by their playing cards.

I understood that he was referring to the spectators, but you're not trying to sell your cards to the spectator, you're trying to sell your cards to the magician. It doesn't matter what the spectator thinks when the magician won't take the risk. So I wanted to explain why the magician won't take the risk.

I just want to clear the misconception that any type of art deck can have a chance to sell in a magicians market. Its just needlessly complicated to use those types of decks in performance. The good art is a distraction from the trick, sometimes the numbered cards might be too busy to have signatures and as mentioned, people may get suspicious. Also just generally people take notice of the deck. That's the last thing you want in a performance - people looking at or thinking about your deck. Edit : This isn't much of a relevant concern, but certain tricks actually rely on having the standard courts to work. There are only a few though(that I am aware of), so not a big deal for the purposes of this argument.

His comment about using riderbacks was based on the logic that if custom faces made spectators suspicious, so would custom backs. This is just not true or else, once again, e and t11 wouldn't exist. Spectators don't know what card backs look like. But they know roughly what the faces look like. A nice back design is about as far as magicians would like to go. The spectator would look at the fan and subconsciously admire the design while drawing a card...and then as the trick goes on, forget about the deck. Or they might not even notice the custom design at all(which would be a mark of a successful design) and the design might just be a way for the magician to accessorise. Bikes are popular, but so are various t11 decks, phoenixes are popular as well...the NOC's are also a successful deck...there's many options when it comes to card backs, but the faces are all very close to standard. I speak from general impression as an amateur and from interactions with other magicians, professional and amateur.

You can search on youtube for professional and amateur magicians showing their card collections. They are very different from those on this forum. They might have 2 copies of a kickstarter deck for collection purposes and three bricks of monarchs for performance purposes. It should give a clear indication of what sells with magicians and what doesn't.

ALSO : a huge concern for magicians - if they want to use decks in performance, more than anything, they need them to be available for a long time. Many kickstarter decks are limited, which is a no-go.

Edit : A very plausible real-life scenario - You're in the middle of a trick, you pull a doublelift and a fancy court shows up and then one of the spectators says, "Wow thats cool, can I take a look." or "Hold on was that a Jack? Let me take a look." There is a specific sleight to get out of this hole, but why put yourself in it?

Unfortunately, the tuck design and the back design of the cards isn't good enough to fund without a huge following already, and even then, it would be tough.

If you ran a Kickstarter with the images you have shown, unfortunately, I don't see this project meeting the goal.

TGunitedcardists wrote:Unfortunately, the tuck design and the back design of the cards isn't good enough to fund without a huge following already, and even then, it would be tough.

If you ran a Kickstarter with the images you have shown, unfortunately, I don't see this project meeting the goal.

Yes I know it. I'm re-designing both.

I'm not sure yet if should I design a court card from scratch or just make a small variation on its faces and colors.

I would like to know what do you think about it guys.

If you can design courts try it and we'll let you know what's good and bad. But if the tuck and back designs are your best artistic ideas I say tweak standard courts. No offense intended if you feel it.

Hey guys here's a quick update of the back design.

What do you think about it?

Huge upgrade from original. I think color would serve it well, possible metallic ink as well.

I rather like it. Even with the Latin inscription, which I typically don't favor.

"Nox longa et plena terrores."

Hey guys.

I've been working hard from morning to night on the tuck box design and this what I have at the moment

Not sure yet what to add on the top, any suggestion?

What do you think about it?

I still don't like the black & white but it's looking much better. Maybe add the printing co. info on one of the tuck sides? But my biggest suggestion ATM is making "Royal Secret" pop much more. Make it stand out somehow. I think adding color will go a long way.

vasta41 wrote:I still don't like the black & white but it's looking much better. Maybe add the printing co. info on one of the tuck sides? But my biggest suggestion ATM is making "Royal Secret" pop much more. Make it stand out somehow. I think adding color will go a long way.

Hey mate don't worry about the black and white, that's just a draft and hopefully it will be gold foiled.

Thanks for your suggestion, I'll add the printing company on the other side and will move that design to the top.