The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

[Eoghann]

Looking really good!

As far as the title, depends what direction you wanna take it:

Coven: noun
an assembly of witches, especially a group of thirteen.


Covenant:

1.
an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
2.
Law. an incidental clause in such an agreement.
3.
Ecclesiastical . a solemn agreement between the members of a church to act together in harmony with the precepts of the gospel.
4.
( initial capital letter ) History/Historical .
a.
National Covenant.
b.
Solemn League and Covenant.
5.
Bible.
a.
the conditional promises made to humanity by God, as revealed in Scripture.
b.
the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites, in which God promised to protect them if they kept His law and were faithful to Him.

I would suggest The Coven.

Perhaps a joker could be the 13th witch, or a sacrifice, or a diptych with them around a fire performing a ritual.

[volantangel]

Perhaps a joker could be the 13th witch, or a sacrifice, or a diptych with them around a fire performing a ritual.

This would make the deck so complete. And honestly not too far off your initial vision (or have we already taken it too far away? Definitely in a good way)

[Sher]

The courts look fantastic. I like the new designs on their robe/clothing. It's more detailed and breaks up the lines so the figures no longer look too geometric.

I like The Coven as a name, too. And I also like Eoghann's idea for the jokers.

For the Ace of spades... Maybe you could consider making it grander than the rest of the aces? Usually the Ace of spades is more elaborate than the rest.

How does the tuck box look? You might want to consider printing on the inside of the tuck, too.

[montecarlojoe]

Perhaps 'Familiar' would fit as a title, as the Ravens seem more of the central theme than the Sorceresses

[52Ravens]

I'm pleased that you all agree, "The Coven" it will now be, defiantly more fitting.

Perhaps a joker could be the 13th witch, or a sacrifice, or a diptych with them around a fire performing a ritual.

A 13th witch would be a good idea for one of the Jokers, maybe a full body version. The murder of ravens as the second? Or maybe something else, who's brains working? I've just finished work and mines done for the day!

This would make the deck so complete. And honestly not too far off your initial vision (or have we already taken it too far away? Definitely in a good way)

No the original vision is still strong, I guess I was being lazy with using the standard design for the court cards, but I'm so glad that you all convinced me to do them.

For the Ace of spades... Maybe you could consider making it grander than the rest of the aces? Usually the Ace of spades is more elaborate than the rest.

I think this needs to happen, thanks. I've also enquired about printing on the inside of the tuck box, I too think it would be a nice touch, I'll let you guys know more soon.

Perhaps 'Familiar' would fit as a title, as the Ravens seem more of the central theme than the Sorceresses

Totally see where you are coming form here, but maybe "The Coven" will be more mainstream. As a weirdo I know what a familiar is but would the adverse person? Having said that, a witches familiar deck of cards is a cool idea for a theme....hmmm

Before I complete the tuck box design, can I just ask, on a scale of 1-10 how bothered are you that it will be a Bicycle branded deck? Does is matter? Do you prefer USPCC over say EPCC or another printer?

Personally I like the Bicycle brand and will more than likey go with them, but it'll be good to hear some opinions.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, hopefully a tweak to the backs to look at soon

[Eoghann]

Familiar is a very interesting suggestion. But I have to agree if you're not that well versed in the terminology, it could get lost.

I'm leaning towards the 13th witch and a murder of crows. Or a single raven but that won't have as much impact I guess.

Every printer has pros and cons. I'm sure the majority will agree that USPCC should be the way to go. But lately they've been delaying projects a lot. But The community seems to be warming up to EPCC. Lower project goals with them. Personally I'd prefer an unbranded tuck to leave more room for badass artwork but it's your call really. Depends on if it goes well with the design you're working on I guess. If it's like a leather bound book look I'd prefer unbranded.

[Godzillian]

Before I complete the tuck box design, can I just ask, on a scale of 1-10 how bothered are you that it will be a Bicycle branded deck? Does is matter? Do you prefer USPCC over say EPCC or another printer?

Personally I like the Bicycle brand and will more than likey go with them, but it'll be good to hear some opinions.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, hopefully a tweak to the backs to look at soon

I prefer EPCC over Bicycle because the handling's great. I think you'll also have a better time with EPCC in terms of registration and long-lasting quality. My Exquisites of 6 months old have still not worn out! But please, for the love of God, if you go with EPCC, do not do this ridiculous "LIMITED 1000 DECKS!!!" trend. And I hope this deck is not $20/deck, because we have too many of that.

If you go USPC/Bicycle, I can accept that as well, but they're less flexible with print runs and their registration is piss poor. I don't know about recent times, but the Black Whispering Imps is a good example of how bad the registration can be, depending on how small your borders are. With Bicycle, you get the recognition from the brand... and that's about it. Oh, and there's some diehardcore USPC fans that won't go for anything that's not USPC.

I'm sure the majority will agree that USPCC should be the way to go. But lately they've been delaying projects a lot. But The community seems to be warming up to EPCC. Lower project goals with them.

Then I guess I'm in the minority! The NOC V3s have convinced me that EPCC is the way to go. If USPC still had that Ohio quality, I would be less inclined to be pro-EPCC. And for those who argue that there's not much difference between USPC Ohio and USPC Kentucky, I call BS on that. I can handle Ohio decks for months, but Kentucky decks will die out in a week or less. This is easily reproducable as an experiment for anyone who wants to disagree with me

[Eoghann]

Oh, when I said the majority I didn't include myself. I can go either way. But I'd lean more towards EPCC for the flexibility they currently offer. Pretty straightforward process, no hurdles or set limits to reach. Plus it can be a very low campaign goal to make sure it funds and not an 18K goal.

[volantangel]

I'm leaning towards the 13th witch and a murder of crows. Or a single raven but that won't have as much impact I guess.

How about a murder of crows transforming into a witch, sort of like how vampires turn into bats. Or do witches strictly not do this ?

[Godzillian]

Oh hold on, I thought you were going to go with a clean marble front (courts/numcards), and less speckle and spatter? The latest pic you posted shows otherwise.

[dazzleguts]

Just playing with the language:

Correct terms for flocks of ravens are a conspiracy of ravens, an unkindness of ravens, or a constable of ravens. Since the ravens are familiars - as a group they would be a conspiracy of familiars, an unkindness of familiars, or a constable of familiars.

[DragonSoul]

Wow, finally caught up on this thread. I love the new courts and I will definitely be pledging for these!

Personally, I like the Bicycle brand. I will still buy EPCC but, I'm not as impressed with them as other folks. I particularly dislike how they've been priced higher than USPCC lately. I also dislike the side opening tuck option. So, more than likely if it's EPCC I'll buy a single deck. If it's USPCC I'll buy at least 2. I like Eoghann's suggestion of an unbranded "book" design. Maybe as a stretch goal?

[Godzillian]

DragonSoul, many of your gripes with EPCC has nothing to do with EPCC... Maybe handling-wise, sure, but below are the points you listed out why you don't like EPCC, and I've replied to each.

I particularly dislike how they've been priced higher than USPCC lately.

This is up to the designer, not EPCC themselves. EPCC just gives them the production quote, but they don't tell the designer "Hey, your deck must be sold at $20 per deck". That's up to the designer. 52Ravens can decide to price his deck at $10, at 15, at 20... it's his discretion. Heck, he can go for USPC and still price his deck at $20 if he wants (please don't!)

I also dislike the side opening tuck option.

I think EPCC has tuck cases that are regular toploaders, like the Legends and Gnostics. Sideloaders are just a trend. The designer can choose not to use a sideloader and go for a regular toploader instead.

[DragonSoul]

True, the price isn't up to EPCC. So, that was more of a general gripe to take into consideration when he is setting up his campaign.

Yes, I know that the side opening tuck is an option. Again, I'm just saying that it isn't one that I like.

I've said this before in other threads so, I didn't repeat it. But, the main reason I don't like EPCC is because the few I've gotten have had:
1. A VERY strong disagreeable chemical odor.
2. They leave a weird waxy/oily residue on my fingers.
I'm very sensitive to both touch and smell but, there are plenty of people out there who aren't bothered by them the way I am.

I'm not a cardist however, those who are seem to really like the handling of them. I collect for the art so, it's very rare for me to buy more than 2 of any deck (1 to open, 1 to keep). The exceptions have been exceptional artwork like Heretic (which is EPCC) and decks from Uusi, Jackson Robinson, Shane Tyree, Chris Ovdiyenko...

I also like the Bicycle logo. I'm not restricted to it but, I like the connection to other decks and the long history of USPCC. I get that it restricts the artwork but, some decks look better with the logo.

All my humble opinions, of course.

[Godzillian]

True, the price isn't up to EPCC. So, that was more of a general gripe to take into consideration when he is setting up his campaign.

Yes, I know that the side opening tuck is an option. Again, I'm just saying that it isn't one that I like.

I've said this before in other threads so, I didn't repeat it. But, the main reason I don't like EPCC is because the few I've gotten have had:
1. A VERY strong disagreeable chemical odor.
2. They leave a weird waxy/oily residue on my fingers.
I'm very sensitive to both touch and smell but, there are plenty of people out there who aren't bothered by them the way I am.

I'm not a cardist however, those who are seem to really like the handling of them. I collect for the art so, it's very rare for me to buy more than 2 of any deck (1 to open, 1 to keep). The exceptions have been exceptional artwork like Heretic (which is EPCC) and decks from Uusi, Jackson Robinson, Shane Tyree, Chris Ovdiyenko...

I also like the Bicycle logo. I'm not restricted to it but, I like the connection to other decks and the long history of USPCC. I get that it restricts the artwork but, some decks look better with the logo.

All my humble opinions, of course.

What EPCC decks do you have? I think the more recent ones don't smell as bad as older EPCC productions, like Legends (those were really bad...) The NOC V3s barely smelled at all.

I understand where you're coming from with the weird residue. I get that too, but I've gotten used to it, more or less. Are your hands dry? Mine are, and at first that's why I thought some people could feel the weirdness and some couldn't.

On topic though, when is this being released on KS? Make sure not to collide with other popular releases / Kickstarters, unless you feel up to a challenge!

[Mike Ratledge]

It just doesn't exist any more. I don't know what the chemical smell/residue was - but it's no longer in their decks.

[52Ravens]

Ok, so I loved the idea of having a 13th witch and I was going to have her forming form the ravens but what I was creating wasn't sitting well with me. Plus the fact that it left me with another Joker that would have a totally different look, but I feel the Jokers need to be the same or at least compliment each other. SO, below is what I have for your judging eyes. At least this way I get the full detail of the ravens forming and splitting the design over both cards adds a nice little touch....I hope haha!

Well it looks like the printers is all a matter of opinion as I thought it would be. USPCC gives me the bonus of a brand that is known world wide and has dedicated collectors, while EPCC has a lot more freedom. Does anyone know if EPCC print in the US?

I've contacted EPCC, and after 48 hours I'm still waiting for a reply....I'll keep you posted

[Eoghann]

Keep that design, it's fantastic. But to complete the coven how about a high priest on one side, high priestess on the other? They are after all the coven leaders. Perhaps joining hands at the center, with the raven behind them.

[montecarlojoe]

I think that may be in danger of over complicating things - the jokers are perfect!

[sprouts1115]

You need a Major and a Minor Joker. The quick fix is just to change the "Joker" to red on one of the cards. Simple fix. Most Jokers are "1-sided" but they like to make them identical for so reason. To me, It's like lets put the 4 suits on the back of the card and have a "1-sided" back of card. Yea, that looks great without knowing the rules....

[DragonSoul]

Hey Kirk,

I really like the diptypch jokers but the light center bothers me. It seems like the center should actually be darker and more solid as the flock comes together to form a new entity. Per Sprouts suggestion perhaps the background and the "Joker" indices could be different colors. It might be worth trying the fade in the center on the background artwork so that it gives an ombre effect. (i.e. the "Joker" indices would be two different dark colors and the background image would each fade toward the center and be more gray where they meet.)

As far as a 13th member of the coven, why not on a gaff card?


Mike and Godzillian, I'm looking forward to receiving Heretic to see if the smell & residue is better. It was particularly bad on my Zenith decks. (Another deck which was bad was the Kraken Rum deck. I don't know if EPCC did those but they have the same odor and residue and so far I haven't run across it on any other non USPCC decks.) Based on what everybody has since said, I'm glad I don't have any of the old Legends decks! And yes, I have very dry non-sweaty hands.

[52Ravens]

I went back to the original idea of the witch forming form the ravens and I just can't nail it! So I'll be sticking with the below as I'm more than happy with the way it looks, and as you'll notice the 13th witch is hiding within, too cheesy?

I've filled in a questionnaire from EPCC and I'm waiting to hear but again. This is kind of holding me back a little as I don't want to draw up some box artwork for bicycle only to find that I'm not going with USPCC any more so bear with me

Whats everyones favorite gaff card? I'm leaning towards a double backer as it the most common but honestly I never use it!

[Godzillian]

I should also mention that EPCC seems to print decks in 54, no 56. Can someone please confirm this or deny this? Mike?

[volantangel]

I should also mention that EPCC seems to print decks in 54, no 56. Can someone please confirm this or deny this? Mike?

Haha you can go over, I've checked with them. But the standard is 54, 56,57 are all possible but it's an extra cost

[Godzillian]

I should also mention that EPCC seems to print decks in 54, no 56. Can someone please confirm this or deny this? Mike?

Haha you can go over, I've checked with them. But the standard is 54, 56,57 are all possible but it's an extra cost

Thanks Volant Good to know for the future.

I'm quite fond of the double-backer since there's a few simple tricks I can do with them. I like card reveals too, but I feel like they just tell the spectator "Hey, I definitely forced this card on you. If you have doubts, here's a card reveal to prove it!".

Maybe a King or Jack where they have their mask down, revealing that they really are female? This would allow color changes and stuff like that.

[Eoghann]

Kind of like the Lotrek Venexiana jokers. I like those.

[52Ravens]

Is it just me or do EPCC just take forever to respond to emails? Trying to get a quote is like trying to get blood from a stone!

Emailed them requesting a quote, got a response a couple of days later to fill in a questionnaire. I did this straight away and emailed to let them know I had completed it. Then nothing, so I emailed to find out whats going on two days ago and I still have nothing. This process has taken two weeks! It doesn't put much confidence towards them producing the cards for me.

Ok, rant over!

Aside from waiting around for EPCC I've been working away on the video/advert to add a little spice to the kickstarter project. Below are a couple of screenshots to tease you with.

So until EPCC come back to me I'm holding back from getting ready to launch or even to start a box design as I feel that the outcome of this depends on who I go with for production.

Bear with me

[Eoghann]

SIIIIIICKK!

You've got a winner!

[th4mo]

Wow, forget the deck... you should be making movies! I want to see more!

Kidding about the deck, of course!

I don't know how this thread got away from me for so long, but your art and overall execution of this concept are A-maz-ing!

Great tips from everyone else along the way, and great job incorporating those suggestions in your own style.

As long as you are able to get the word out, I think you will have a hugely successful KS campaign! (you can count me in for a few, at least!).

Keep your pricing reasonable, and i don't care what printer you go with... but i tend to prefer non-branded tucks.

[Marcus]

Can't believe I've completely missed this design up until now. I really like it, gonna do my best to remember to pledge for this one.

As for the Bicycle branding, I'd recommend against it. Mostly because it costs more and I've never seen a deck where it actually added anything in particular.