Bicycle / Legends - Interlace (an industry first) (KS) LIVE

[Bikefanatic]

I been burned out on playing cards lately. Like a few members mentioned, this deck is ok but not enough to pledge compared to other decks. It should do well.......

[Sher]

I think Steve Minty may have inadvertently taken the industry first by deciding to possibly do his recolours of his deck by EPCC. The fact that someone was able to take the title of 'industry first' through pure accident really undermines the selling point of this deck and the hype around it 'pre-launch'. I think you would've done better without it.

From what I remember, 4PM designs tried to do this with their Legacy deck. The red and blue versions were USPCC, but the black version was going to be EPCC. However, that KS did not fund, although Gambler's Warehouse helped to get it printed. Unsure if all versions ended up USPCC or not... Going to look that up.

EDIT: There are 500 of the black versions, but the thread on the Legacy deck does not mention if it was printed by USPCC. Maybe Gambler's Printed it using their own printers.

[Yashi]

I asked Gambler's Warehouse about it when they were taking pre-orders. If I remember right, the black is still to be printed by MPC.

[ecNate]

EB pledge just opened up if anybody wants it here before it is plucked.

EDIT: Gone.

[shebhnt]

Been following this project for a long time so I made sure to jump in and was able to grab one of the early birds. I really love the backs and the style.

[sinjin7]

Why is the LPCC deck priced the same as the USPCC deck? All I've been hearing about is how significantly less expensive the Taiwanese and Chinese factories are compared to the USPCC. $12 for a USPCC deck seems to be in line with what we know about USPCC pricing (provided the tuck box will have some special treatments without going overboard), so why isn't the LPCC deck significantly less expensive?

[Cbkimble]

Why is the LPCC deck priced the same as the USPCC deck? All I've been hearing about is how significantly less expensive the Taiwanese and Chinese factories are compared to the USPCC. $12 for a USPCC deck seems to be in line with what we know about USPCC pricing (provided the tuck box will have some special treatments without going overboard), so why isn't the LPCC deck significantly less expensive?

I was thinking the same thing. the only reason I can figure, other than the obvious possibility, is the he averaged the two prices and is charging the same. I would hope he wouldn't be slightly price gouging the LPCC deck.

[sinjin7]

I don't think the prices are being averaged since $12 for the USPCC deck is standard these days on KS. Plus, these decks are sold independently of each other, so what if there are a lot more USPCC orders? He would lose money off of the average then.

[Mike Ratledge]

I don't think the prices are being averaged since $12 for the USPCC deck is standard these days on KS. Plus, these decks are sold independently of each other, so what if there are a lot more USPCC orders? He would lose money off of the average then.

I have to agree, buddy. The decks produced by Legends or Expert PCC (the same factory) are less expensive by at least 25% even if the IDENTICAL specifications are used for both production groups. I have seen them get even larger deltas, but that would be an unusual thing, I suspect, since Expert isn't really trying to lose money, of course - be they "501(C)3" (not for profit) or not. I didn't just pull these numbers out of my butt, I had certain very high end decks priced by Expert after-the-fact without giving the names of them - to compare the costs. The difference was consistent, but not always the same, of course.

If I were to hand identical specs to both production houses with really fancy tucks, embossing, foil - heck - let's go with two-color foil for the fun if it - and then get quotes, USPCC would come in somewhere around $XX and Expert would be around $XX-25% depending on just how fancy the embossing would be. These are just purely theoretical numbers, I haven't priced the same decks with both. It would be interesting to see the quotes the Christian got for these! I don't like quoting prices here because somebody will point to it later and say "you could do it for $x back then" when the fact is that the pricing is always changing as the technology evolves and people get fancier every single month and more ambitious as well, of course - it's just human nature.

[chach]

Why are they priced the same? Simple, profit. How often do "savings on production" actually get passed to the customer? Probably the most famous one in recent history was the advent of the CD. Granted some here may be too young to remember this, but when CDs first came out they sold for $15-$20 depending on artist, label, whatever. A bit more than the same album on tape or vinyl and the record companies always touted how the prices for CDs would come down dramatically because they were so much cheaper to produce and we be able to buy albums for $5 or so once startup costs evened out. CDs still cost anywhere between $10-$20 (if you actually buy a CD that is). Now one has to ask, why? Well because people were / are willing to pay the price so why lower price and thus decrease profit?

So, anyone expecting prices to decrease dramatically when EPCC is used, think back to your music collection. The savings won't be passed to the consumer, it doesn't make sense. And if a savings is passed on, it most definitely won't be the full savings that the creator received. And I'm alright with that. It's called market economics and prices won't decrease until people stop paying them.

[Cbkimble]

Why are they priced the same? Simple, profit. How often do "savings on production" actually get passed to the customer? Probably the most famous one in recent history was the advent of the CD. Granted some here may be too young to remember this, but when CDs first came out they sold for $15-$20 depending on artist, label, whatever. A bit more than the same album on tape or vinyl and the record companies always touted how the prices for CDs would come down dramatically because they were so much cheaper to produce and we be able to buy albums for $5 or so once startup costs evened out. CDs still cost anywhere between $10-$20 (if you actually buy a CD that is). Now one has to ask, why? Well because people were / are willing to pay the price so why lower price and thus decrease profit?

So, anyone expecting prices to decrease dramatically when EPCC is used, think back to your music collection. The savings won't be passed to the consumer, it doesn't make sense. And if a savings is passed on, it most definitely won't be the full savings that the creator received. And I'm alright with that. It's called market economics and prices won't decrease until people stop paying them.

The way things are going, I've got a feeling that it won't be long till that will happen. A lot of collectors are getting themselves into tight corners with the current market prices. I don't believe it will be a matter of if but when the card market crashes.

[sinjin7]

This is precisely the reason why I keep harping on about escalating card costs and the ridiculous $16-$25 costs per deck we're starting to see, especially for the Taiwanese/Chinese manufacturing plants that the EPCC and LPCC uses. We're fortunate that we have insiders in the industry that provide ball-park estimates on what actual production costs should be for similar type card projects from both the USPCC and the over-seas plants so we know who's gouging and who's not.

As I stated in other posts, I have no problem with deck designers making a profit. The best designers especially need to make that profit so they can continue to produce the decks we all love to use and collect. But at a certain point, we need to check the market and reign in prices to reasonable levels. We should not be mindless sheep that reflexively open our wallets and get bent over just because a popular designer comes out with the next pretty deck.

A $12 USPCC deck on KS should equate to about a $9 EPCC/LPCC deck.

[Godzillian]

This is a great deck, and I can see a lot of thought went into it. However, with all the big names launching decks soon, I don't think I'll be pledging for this. If both EPCC & USPCC are producing the deck, then it means I need to collect double the usual amount of decks for a project, with barely any design differences. It just seems redundant.

I also agree with sinjin7's point, where "a $12 USPCC deck on KS should equate to about a $9 EPCC/LPCC deck". I haven't seen any EPCC decks that are cheaper than USPCC on KS yet, they're about the same to me.

[Mike Ratledge]

This is a great deck, and I can see a lot of thought went into it. However, with all the big names launching decks soon, I don't think I'll be pledging for this. If both EPCC & USPCC are producing the deck, then it means I need to collect double the usual amount of decks for a project, with barely any design differences. It just seems redundant.

I also agree with sinjin7's point, where "a $12 USPCC deck on KS should equate to about a $9 EPCC/LPCC deck". I haven't seen any EPCC decks that are cheaper than USPCC on KS yet, they're about the same to me.

While that's true, I agree - we haven't seen people actually pass the savings on to the consumer - or pledge backers in this case. Odd, since I happen to know what the prices for these things are, and nobody seems to be giving up a dime of their profit, even though the margins are significantly larger for EPCC decks compared to an identical USPCC deck, simply because of the difference in the tuck costs. The decks aren't that far apart, frankly - it's those "external tuck case provider" made tucks that USPCC uses for everything but the most simple tucks that gets you cost-wise.

[MagikFingerz]

I got in on the double EB, but I have the same feelings as most people here. I would love to support Christian but I'm not financially independent and this one just isn't worth it for me, so send me a PM if you want to be there when I cancel my pledge.

[Sher]

I think this deck is well designed. I'm surprised it's not doing that well. I'm keeping my pledge. Hopefully I can hold on to it.

[Jock1971]

I` love this deck and have been a supporter from the early drafts. i`m in at and holding onto the R20 dual set and am hoping to jump to the R12 Shuffle & Shelf set if the decks get funded.
But like many others i think Sastian has shot himself in the foot with the two printers deal. This might have worked for a more established deck artist, but as a unknown artist (in the card collecting world at least) the high goal is way too much. I`ve seen many Excellent looking decks fail with a goal from just one printer but two yikes.
that being said i`m in this till the bitter end.

[sastian]

Since today has been so slow, what do any of you suggest I do to make this more appealing?

[Sher]

Since today has been so slow, what do any of you suggest I do to make this more appealing?

It could just be due to a lack of exposure. Try doing cross promotions

[vasta41]

Since today has been so slow, what do any of you suggest I do to make this more appealing?

I want to preface this response by saying I haven't the slightest idea how this could be done and I surely don't expect my little opinion to be heard. Having said that, the deck would appeal to me more if there were more color- somehow, some way. Something to make the tuck, back and most importantly courts "pop." I understand that this design doesn't exactly merit a lot of color but I personally would be more interested if white red and black weren't the only colors used.

[wahl0108]

Thanks for the tier heads-up, good sir! I agree with Sher for exposure, maybe getting Ivan at Kardify or Max at maxplayingcards.com would help greatly. Cross-promotion, if it can be worked out, also couldn't hurt

[Mike Ratledge]

Since today has been so slow, what do any of you suggest I do to make this more appealing?

Sher's exactly right, Christian! My partner Lorenzo will shoot me, but ask him to do a cross-promotion with your decks tomorrow or the next day. He's only got about 4 or 5 days left at this point, but just crossed into that $50,000+ territory a few minutes ago, closing in on 1200 backers as well.

[sinjin7]

Since today has been so slow, what do any of you suggest I do to make this more appealing?

How about starting off by explaining your pricing of the LPCC produced decks being the same as the USPCC?

[Mike Ratledge]

Since today has been so slow, what do any of you suggest I do to make this more appealing?

How about starting off by explaining your pricing of the LPCC produced decks being the same as the USPCC?

Have to agree, just not a good precedence when I know that Expert costs 25%-30% less for the exact same thing, and that's not an estimate, I had decks priced by both three times. Average was over 25% and one was almost 35%

[sinjin7]

Still no response about the pricing discrepancy between USPCC and LPCC decks? I guess its going to be a moot point since it doesn't appear this is on track to get funded. Its a shame, even though I don't consider this deck an "industry first", it might have been nice to give people the opportunity to directly compare the two decks and put to rest the notion that decks from the two manufacturing plants are almost equal with an apples to apples comparison. Given Christian's reluctance to explain his pricing of the two different decks, I'm going to drop my pledge.

[vasta41]

Still no response about the pricing discrepancy between USPCC and LPCC decks? I guess its going to be a moot point since it doesn't appear this is on track to get funded. Its a shame, even though I don't consider this deck an "industry first", it might have been nice to give people the opportunity to directly compare the two decks and put to rest the notion that decks from the two manufacturing plants are almost equal with an apples to apples comparison. Given Christian's reluctance to explain his pricing of the two different decks, I'm going to drop my pledge.

The lack of explanation to this very good point is odd. You noticed a very interesting aspect about this campaign through all the smoke and mirrors about this "industry first." If I may quote the designer, hallelujah I'm glad someone understands.

[StanKindLee]

Not trying to do any reveals here but my calculations show a difference of less than one dollar between decks at the 25% mark... that is bulk deck price delivered from printer - not KS reward deck price. So you folks expect USPCC decks to go for $12 and EPCC decks to go for $11.25 in a single KS (or CardLauncher for that matter) campaign? What about MPC decks? What about other printers from the US and non-US? Is there a spreadsheet or something that shows the relationship of what a deck of cards should cost on KS and who prints the deck?

[Sher]

I don't know how much decks cost in bulk from each manufacturer. I chose $12 for USPCC and $11 for EPCC based on prior Kickstarters who offered that price. If someone can offer a fully embellished USPCC deck for $12 including shipping, then I'd be curious to see the explanation behind a deck that's priced much higher, especially if it's on KS because decks priced higher than $14 usually have difficulty funding.

[sinjin7]

Here are some recent KS with all the bells and whistles on the tucks:

Uusi Pagan - Embossed linen texture, foil outside and colored inside - $12
Ornates - Embossed, foil outside and inside of tuck - $12
Borderline - Embossed, T11-like foiling outside - $12
Origins - Embossed, foil on the outside - $12.50
Mana - Embossed, foil on outside, colored inside tuck - $11.20
Sherlock Holmes - Embossed, foil on outside, printing/foil inside of tuck - $12

Again, all the above are recent decks, all from USPCC, all on KS. These are examples of the finest decks with expensive tucks and all around $12 at the single deck price point. When you can get decks of this caliber at this price point, then it should tell you something about other decks you see that aren't as well designed and without all the expensive bells and whistles on the tuck boxes selling at $12 or more.

The decks produced by EPCC and LPCC use Asian factories that cost much less and charge you much less for tuck boxes, so I don't know why any EPCC/LPCC deck should cost over $10 on KS.

I'm not aware of the Interlace deck being foiled or foiled on the inside of the tuck. Hell, it won't even be embossed unless the project reaches (*gasp*) $100,000.00! So why is the LPCC version $12? Given the plainness of the tucks, why is even the UPCC version $12?

[Widdee]

Great price analysis there Sinjin. If anything else, the creators who are giving beaucoup bells and whistles for a good price- and for 12 bucks it should be pretty damn fancy- are going to keep everybody else honest.