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Encarded wrote:If I ever print Zenith again you are all free to sue me, I'l put that on the record right now.

If you look at this sentence like a lawyer (I know, who would want to) If you ever "print Zenith" again..... Getting something to display on the screen, such as the word Zenith, you are "printing" it. So in very round about legal nonsense you have printed "Zenith"... again. Too much time on my habds and Red bull in my veins? You bet!

I have a 15" MacBook Pro with Retina Display, and I love it. Looking at the specs alone, it definitely doesn't give you the most bang for your buck. You could probably get a laptop with similar specs for half the price I paid for mine. Despite knowing this, I am still very much satisfied with my laptop and I still think it's worth the price I paid for it. Would I be just as happy with a similarly spec'd laptop for a lower price? I doubt it. It's similar to how I would willingly pay up to $30 or more for one deck, but hesitate to spend more than $15 on another, despite $15 being a reasonable price.

Am I a huge Apple fan? I personally don't consider myself to be. Not everything I own is Apple. I have an HTC One and prefer it over the iPhone. Okay, sorry for going off on a tangent.

Sher wrote:I have a 15" MacBook Pro with Retina Display, and I love it. Looking at the specs alone, it definitely doesn't give you the most bang for your buck. You could probably get a laptop with similar specs for half the price I paid for mine. Despite knowing this, I am still very much satisfied with my laptop and I still think it's worth the price I paid for it. Would I be just as happy with a similarly spec'd laptop for a lower price? I doubt it. It's similar to how I would willingly pay up to $30 or more for one deck, but hesitate to spend more than $15 on another, despite $15 being a reasonable price.

Am I a huge Apple fan? I personally don't consider myself to be. Not everything I own is Apple. I have an HTC One and prefer it over the iPhone. Okay, sorry for going off on a tangent.

My thoughts exactly.

If a KS creator can sell decks after their campaign then the deck is not that limited, only if there's a certain number and no reprints.

I know most KS creator tend to order enough to cover all Kickstarter orders plus a bit on time for themselves to sell post-Kickstarter though with the Tenebre that might be harder as they've got exactly 1000 decks so they might not having anything post Kickstarter.

As for the higher than normal price tag, I think we're so use to paying a specific price (around 12$/deck US domestic on Kickstarter) that we all tend to forget the artist/designer value that goes into the product too. It took time and effort to make the deck and that goes into the cost as well. As we look at the price for The Hive, I know it definitely won't be a 10$ deck of cards. But ultimately, whether something is worth while is up to the buyer and I support that. The strongest message a customer can send to a seller is how the customer decides to spend their money.

bhong wrote:I know most KS creator tend to order enough to cover all Kickstarter orders plus a bit on time for themselves to sell post-Kickstarter though with the Tenebre that might be harder as they've got exactly 1000 decks so they might not having anything post Kickstarter.

As for the higher than normal price tag, I think we're so use to paying a specific price (around 12$/deck US domestic on Kickstarter) that we all tend to forget the artist/designer value that goes into the product too. It took time and effort to make the deck and that goes into the cost as well. As we look at the price for The Hive, I know it definitely won't be a 10$ deck of cards. But ultimately, whether something is worth while is up to the buyer and I support that. The strongest message a customer can send to a seller is how the customer decides to spend their money.

'Zackly.

When I posted my little piece a couple pages ago about how I was comparing my anticipated joy over this deck versus, say, my anticipated joy from a JR or Chris O. deck (to name but a few), I found Tenebre not quite up there on the $18 per deck scale for me, at this time. However, 4PM has to also look at this as, what makes it worth his time to put this deck together and bring it to market. He decides, "You know what? I need this amount of money to make this worth my time, and I think I can command that in the marketplace." So, he tests the waters at KS, and so far, the evidence very clearly justifies his decision because, hey, the deck is very well funded.

I'd still like to pick up a deck, but I'd still prefer not to pay $18 for it. At some point, I'm going to give in or give up. But, I'm also aware that to the extent that I relent, I'm setting a precedent for the price for future decks by this and other creators. When all good decks cost $18 each, I'm probably going to have to walk away. But when only a special few stray that high, I choose to stay at the table. I have to decide for myself whether I'm up for the consequences of pledging for this deck. I certainly don't blame 4PM for asking that price. Good for him for getting it, albeit maybe not so good for some of us on the buying end. For the time being, I remain with Strag on this one....

bhong wrote:I know most KS creator tend to order enough to cover all Kickstarter orders plus a bit on time for themselves to sell post-Kickstarter though with the Tenebre that might be harder as they've got exactly 1000 decks so they might not having anything post Kickstarter.

As for the higher than normal price tag, I think we're so use to paying a specific price (around 12$/deck US domestic on Kickstarter) that we all tend to forget the artist/designer value that goes into the product too. It took time and effort to make the deck and that goes into the cost as well. As we look at the price for The Hive, I know it definitely won't be a 10$ deck of cards. But ultimately, whether something is worth while is up to the buyer and I support that. The strongest message a customer can send to a seller is how the customer decides to spend their money.

Well ive come from a time, where kickstarter early birds start at $6-7. I think ive relented enough

But tucks are so much fancier now... So they cost more to make and that cost is translated over to price. I wish I could remember a time when early birds were $6-7. I came in pretty late in the game.

The first Kickstarter deck I pledged for was Russell's Brimstone. I paid $5 for an early bird. Those were the days... *eyes glaze over*

bhong wrote:I know most KS creator tend to order enough to cover all Kickstarter orders plus a bit on time for themselves to sell post-Kickstarter though with the Tenebre that might be harder as they've got exactly 1000 decks so they might not having anything post Kickstarter.

As for the higher than normal price tag, I think we're so use to paying a specific price (around 12$/deck US domestic on Kickstarter) that we all tend to forget the artist/designer value that goes into the product too. It took time and effort to make the deck and that goes into the cost as well. As we look at the price for The Hive, I know it definitely won't be a 10$ deck of cards. But ultimately, whether something is worth while is up to the buyer and I support that. The strongest message a customer can send to a seller is how the customer decides to spend their money.

Brendan, I agree with you on this -- but its true that some designers can produce a better deck in a fraction of a time that some others. Ultimately its a combination both of what's produced, how much it costs, and the size of the designer's fan base.

Here's a thought experiment: suppose Jackson decided to produce a deck such as the Fed 52 LE black. What volume and price per deck would generate the most cash for him?


Ok, now that you've come-up with an answer, suppose he had done that as the first Fed 52 campaign, before he had established his reputation and built his audience?


Finally, does anyone care whether he can design a beautiful deck in one easy day or if it takes him three months of blood, sweat and tears?

/bama

True on all accounts there bamabenz though the only addition I'd add for the Kickstarter price, at least, is also shipping. That's part of the domestic price and depending on how it's package, that can range from 4-7$ per a deck, but obviously money is saved on larger orders.

I will say that's hard to say. I know when the first Fed 52 deck came out, people though they were expensive at 15$ (Branded Bicycle Fed 52 was 15$ per single deck though the others were 11$).

I'd like to hope that people care about how much effort went into a deck, but I can understand that ultimate it's the end product that matters more than the design process that went into it.

I guess the best answer is ultimately, to each their own and that's that.

4PM has posted an update. They've received photos from LPCC and the coins as well. Looks like the next deck in the series is going to be a recolor with different pips & indices, and subtle design changes. The backers will choose the color scheme.
EDIT: The photos I posted are photos Lawrence Sullivan sent to 4pmdesigns.
EDIT2: Removed the last photo since they explicitly state to not show it on forums.

ugh, can't wait for these! They look ah-mah-zing

The LPCC/EPCC uncuts are weird - they're actually just standard paper. 4PM designs said this in their update:

"Please take into consideration that the uncut sheet is standard paper while the cards are the actual stock and finish."
Is there a specific reason why EPCC does this? Maybe there was a post somewhere that explained why their uncuts aren't the traditional uncut sheets you'd expect from places like USPCC... Or maybe it's just this project that the uncuts are just standard paper.

EDIT: The photos I posted are photos Lawrence Sullivan sent to 4pmdesigns. I'm hoping when the uncut ships, it's not folded.

I didn't like seeing this. Even on standard paper they should've been shipped properly. this folding would've possibly cost LPCC some business with me. 4pm could've tried to smooth it out better before taking the pic as well. That's just a pic that should've never made it's way to the public.

Cbkimble wrote:I didn't like seeing this. Even on standard paper they should've been shipped properly. this folding would've possibly cost LPCC some business with me. 4pm could've tried to smooth it out better before taking the pic as well. That's just a pic that should've never made it's way to the public.

Actually, these are just photos Lawrence Sullivan sent them from LPCC. I'm hoping that when the uncuts actually ship to 4pm + backers, they're rolled properly into poster tubes. Sorry for any confusion!!!

Godzillian wrote:

Cbkimble wrote:I didn't like seeing this. Even on standard paper they should've been shipped properly. this folding would've possibly cost LPCC some business with me. 4pm could've tried to smooth it out better before taking the pic as well. That's just a pic that should've never made it's way to the public.

Actually, these are just photos Lawrence Sullivan sent them from LPCC. I'm hoping that when the uncuts actually ship to 4pm + backers, they're rolled properly into poster tubes. Sorry for any confusion!!!

You're reading his comment wrong: "the uncut is on standard paper" - it's not an uncut at all, it's a proof, and all of their uncuts come on standard paper stock, of course. I guess he means "this sheet is actually on plain paper", but it definitly isn't worded well.

More like a poster than an uncut. Even if it is folded rather than rolled, I would still be disappointed. But Mike might be right. We're all just misunderstanding the comment.

I've sent them a message questioning if the uncut sheets will be standard paper or card stock. I'm hoping Mike is right.

EDIT: They commented in their update:

"Also, as I mentioned above, "Please take into consideration that the uncut sheet is standard paper". It's not meant to impress, but to ensure the layout of the cards are correct. It's just time and cost efficient to just print the layout on a standard paper and sent cheaper just so the production team can look it over. The paper uncut proof is not normal meant for the public. We just like to share everything we can."

So yes, I believe the uncut sheets will be actual card stock. The picture I posted is the proof.

I'm sure Mike is right, otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

Back number 4 (from the left) is my first pick of those, looks awesome

I understand that. Its a pic of the proof, not an actual uncut. I still dont think it should've been shown with it having been folded.

I'm not too impressed with the new colors available but maybe the green or silver might win.

Cards are in and next decks in the series have been decided.

wahl0108 wrote:Cards are in and next decks in the series have been decided.

By the voting that I remember, it looked like most people went for the silver, purple and green. I guess they'll do all the colors but in a certain order.

Bikefanatic wrote:

wahl0108 wrote:Cards are in and next decks in the series have been decided.

By the voting that I remember, it looked like most people went for the silver, purple and green. I guess they'll do all the colors but in a certain order.

They're nice cards and I have a deck coming. I hope the next color in the series has a lower price point, otherwise I'll be stopping with red.

Cbkimble wrote:I understand that. Its a pic of the proof, not an actual uncut. I still dont think it should've been shown with it having been folded.

This doesn't really matter. The proof is for the artist to see if colors are okay. Even if it's folded ten times it does the job. They may didn't have to show it but it's not important.

Well, I got these today. I was nervous when I saw the padded envelope but they encased the deck in cardboard cut to size. Nice touch. The deck, tuck and pack jacket are beautiful. I wish I had gotten a second deck to open. #!%!@ bi-weekly pay cycle!

Maybe my half brick will be waiting for me when I get home Tuesday/Wednesday.

This deck is killing me! First I must say this is a great looking deck. This is my first Legends' deck. The deck is thick and there was a struggle to get the cards out of the shiny red tuck. Cards were stuck together but after handling them, they're very good, making a nice fan. Couldn't put the deck back into the tuck so I said screw it. With Zenith is no problem but it's the glued flap inside that makes it hard to put deck back inside.

I put the deck into the black jacket/tuck. I took the flap and inserted into the slit. Now I can't open it! If I try hard to pull the flap out of the slit, I might tear it.

Well just now using some common sense plus someone probably mentioned this in another thread, for side tucks it's best to put in half if the deck at the opening side then the other half should fit right in. Still have to lightly put on the jacket for flap to come out without bending or tearing.