Bicycle Army Men -- Kickstarter COMPLETE!

[walrus]

I agree, and I am not making an attack on Adam.,His update on KS was not snappy and blaming others. He seems like a decent guy. Even if one of the issues with the deck is misguided expenditures I believe in the end everything will work out. I just think it is as Mike said, he was on here daily when raising money for the deck, he should be on here a bit more now.

[badpete69]

Personally I am fed up with people and their excuses. If you can't handle running a kickstarter then do not run one. Tons of people run Kickstarter projects and deliver on their commitments. I am so tired of the sob stories and the " Oh I did not know about this and that. Do your friggin homework. You have no problem taking my money though. Then to stay silent like those @#$%^ at ultraviolet just pisses me off. These people should be banned from Kickstarter. Enough with the excuses...

[Gareth]

Correct me if I'm wrong (this is the information I've been going off of), but I was under the impression that Adam and Russell work together since I've heard multiple reports of Russell swooping in and taking care of business when Adam is not responsive. This, by association, makes no sense to me. Even if Russell is 100% reliable, his dealings with somebody who isn't is enough reason to raise alarms in my head about either one's future projects.

You're right really. Russell and Adam are 'Circle City Cards', but from appearances at least, the projects seem to be individual ones. ie. Americana was Russell's baby, whereas Army Men is Adams - where design, funding, printing and fulfillment appear to be that one persons responsibility. The company name appears to be largely a loose association - which I have assumed was driven by Russell (comments on updating the website, etc, all seem to be Russell's).

I take it more as if perhaps Russell has chosen a business partner who isn't customer focused (as he is). I guess whether that is enough to stop you buying from Russell is your decision.

Then reading that this guy is running another project with his brother where he communicates a lot with the backers?!?!

I haven't fully gone through the updates on the 'BlueTube' project - but couldn't find anything which specifically pointed to the updates coming from Adam. One could easily assume that these updates might be coming from Ben (Adams brother) - of course if this is the case it may just reinforce how little Adam keeps people up to date.

[Strag]

Then reading that this guy is running another project with his brother where he communicates a lot with the backers?!?!

I haven't fully gone through the updates on the 'BlueTube' project - but couldn't find anything which specifically pointed to the updates coming from Adam. One could easily assume that these updates might be coming from Ben (Adams brother) - of course if this is the case it may just reinforce how little Adam keeps people up to date.

The web site http://www.bluetubeaudio.com/ has loads of updates specifically from Adam, including posts which are replications of the KS comments. I think it's fair to say that project has had way more communication and updating (post funding) than Army Men.

[cosmicsecret]

Thank you Strag for posting the link to the website were you can cleary see the activity of Adam on the other project.
I simply forgot to post it.
For my part, i will no more invest in his projects or future decks!

[vasta41]

Any update on this?? Do we get our money back yet- I feel like it's being held hostage for ransom. FYI- potential lawsuits are NOT your backers problem, Adam!

[BMPokerworld]

I think he posted an update on Kickstarter about a week ago.

Thanks!

[badpete69]

Any update on this?? Do we get our money back yet- I feel like it's being held hostage for ransom. FYI- potential lawsuits are NOT your backers problem, Adam!

It's hard to give the money back when it was spent already....

[Oswin]

Pas très sérieux tout cela ! Des nouvelles rapides sont exigées !

[walrus]

Pas très sérieux tout cela ! Des nouvelles rapides sont exigées !

Very well said. That actually looks like a nice radio. I have a few collectable ones. I do not know why this guy would want to hurt his rep. with a deck of cards.

[jmrock]

I for one would simply like my pledge back... I work far too hard for my $ than to be taken for a ride... I believe that regardless of the kickstarter clauses and deniability... aiding in taking peoples $ and not fulfilling your obligation is quite a serious felony as was discussed back when that rainbow deck was being produced by cosmo... I have already asked for a refund and have not received a response... I will further be filing a chargeback, in addition to looking into who exactly to report this situation to... One cannot simply walk away with another's funds these days given the paper trail... It amazes me that people / designers that were so well respected simply throw it away and receive just an enormous amount of resentment and negative energy... Seems very self destructive to me... However, I would just like my pledge back and if I do not receive it back, then I will be looking into how to ensure that Adam does not get away with taking my $ and running... In addition, if after reading this, Adam, you feel that I am being a bit over the top, then you should have just answered or addressed my request when it was first made... If this does get back to you, I expect a refund and I will cease to explore ways to report you to the proper authorities who will hold you responsible for taking thousands of dollars from people and not fulfilling your end of the agreement... This is a serious situation, and you should treat it as such...

[Russell]

You do realize he posted a response on Kickstarter about where he is in the process of having them printed. He didn't not run away with your money. He had to redraw some of the artwork due to a BS legal issue that could not have been expected beforehand.

Should Adam have kept his backers in the loop better? Yes.
Was the Kickstarter campaign a fraud or scam? No.

The decks will simply be arriving later than expected.

[jmrock]

I understand he's your buddy... but you shouldn't let his missteps bring you down by association... regardless of where he is with his campaign which I paid for in September of 2012, he's not acting responsibly and as I previously stated, I, speaking for myself no longer want in on this project... Again, Russell, I understand he's your pal, but as a fervent supporter of all of your decks and Adam's, a simple refund is in order... I am not a fan of asking this in an open forum, but apparently asking on a private level does not seem to elicit a response... It would be a lot simpler to simply refund the funds rather than begin a different campaign that is really not necessary... Speak to your friend / partner... Thank you in advance...

[MagikFingerz]

He didn't not run away with your money.

Ignoring a request/demand for a refund doesn't really support that.

I have to agree with jmrock, you shouldn't be in business with someone who can't even respond to his customers. When I didn't get my R1 decks, he never responded to me at all. It was you who "bailed him out" by adding my missing decks to an order for some of your Hornets.

[CBJ]

I won't be backing any of Adam's future products.

[vasta41]

The decks will simply be arriving later than expected.

Part of the "agrement" when all of his backers paid was a time frame to recieve the deck. If you loaned me money and we agreed on a date to pay you back and I gave you an IOU, you'd be pissed. I'm not saying Adam is scamming us but if this were the mob... well I'm not permoting violence but I think you get my point.

This project was a huge dissapointement and I am not at all excited to get my deck (if I ever do).

[Ryric]

So what were the changes that had to be made for USPCC approval? Was that a backer only post (did someone quote it above and I missed it)?

[Twix]

It is a backer only update. Here it is:

Sorry for being so quite lately I have been having some major issues producing this deck. Now with several redesigns I've been fighting a battle for over a month that I was hoping to have resolved much quicker than it is. I received a cease and desist letter from a company that I shall not name claiming trademark infringement by my project. I have been trying to work things out but it's a slow process and some times seems to lead nowhere, I feel like we have finally reached an agreement and with a few minor changes I may be able to have these decks finally ready to send to the printer.

Again I am sorry for my neglect, it is no way to treat all the people that supported me and got the project this far. I will let you all know when I finally have approval.

Then in the comments he posted:

Ugh, and now we know why I held off on telling everyone, some people all of a sudden become armchair lawyers. I would have loved to have this worked out and my backers be none the wiser, however it became apparent that it was not going to be worked out without making some changes. The reason I said I think that I have it worked out is that I don't KNOW if it is worked out. You asked for updates and this is what I have right now. With all due respect Tom you are wrong. The Wikipedia article that you read does not have the full story and it has some errors in it. I am NOT going to post legal documents here. I will however post the changes that were necessary as soon as I have full permission.

[Strag]

More recently

Hey everyone, nothing concrete yet. I'm looking at "Army Deck" right now and hoping that flies.

Of course, nothing since (this was on March 28) and of course this means the decks aren't event printed yet.

Feeling disrespected and ripped off at this point. Would be nice if Adam "manned-up" and actually came in here himself to address concerns instead of hiding away.

[UtterFool]

I think everyone who pledged for this deck should face the facts, in all likelihood we will not be seeing any product from this campaign.

If his issues in getting this produced are legitimate or not, I think it has become obvious that Adam does not really want to concern himself with this project any longer.
Hell, CCC has distanced itself from this project. Russell hasn't been on this thread defending or apologizing for the project in the name of CCC in a long while either.

[Gareth]

FYI- potential lawsuits are NOT your backers problem, Adam!

You don't understand financing a business do you?

... in all likelihood we will not be seeing any product from this campaign.

If his issues in getting this produced are legitimate or not, I think it has become obvious that Adam does not really want to concern himself with this project any longer.

I'm not so pessimistic - I think there may still be a reasonable chance of getting a product (assuming the reported legal issues are/get sorted). At this stage we are only 1-2 months post estimated delivery date (not much compared with the first project I backed, Orbit, 18 months later they're scrapping all product and restarting). However, obviously the cards haven't been printed yet, and who knows how many delays may yet occur.

Adam really doesn't seem to bother with customer service - the Revision 1 situation wasn't great for many, but like many others I suspect, I figured I'd grant a second chance for this project. A third chance is extremely unlikely, which at least amongst us [knowledgeable people] means the chances of another funded KS for him are basically zero.

I realise that I appear to be backing Adam in this thread - that's definitely not my intention - just trying to insert some rationality into what appears at times to be an angry mob racing for their pitchforks.

[vasta41]

FYI- potential lawsuits are NOT your backers problem, Adam!

You don't understand financing a business do you?

Not my job. Adam isn't in a shark tank and I'm not an investor. The money I paid Adam was for a deck of cards that was supposed to be delivered by a certain time. Your condeseding question seems like the type of questions people asked behind a Ponzi scheme...

My point is $h!t happens- we all know this. If Adam ran into trouble, he should have refunded the money until he was ready to move forward.

[badpete69]

I have to say I kind of agree with Vasta here. I have had this discussion with other people as well and recently was on the FBI website to read about Internet Fraud (on the advice of a few friends) and non delivery of merchandise. Per the description I am reading , projects like Bicycle Core and maybe this one could fall under internet fraud and it is a felony.... words to the wise

[walrus]

I seem to remember Alex, producer of the VORTEX DECK putting up some mumbo jumbo about KS being a nonbinding contract between backer and producer. That is my wording for what he said but he seemed quite content that no legal unpleasantness would hinder his jive. I would assume Adam would be even more versed in this as he has run several campaigns.

[BMPokerworld]

I seem to remember Alex, producer of the VORTEX DECK putting up some mumbo jumbo about KS being a nonbinding contract between backer and producer. That is my wording for what he said but he seemed quite content that no legal unpleasantness would hinder his jive. I would assume Adam would be even more versed in this as he has run several campaigns.

When someone gives you money for something, it becomes binding. Alex is arrogant and doesn't think anyone will pursue him. He is a thief who will eventually get what is coming to him.

Thanks!

[sinjin7]

I seem to remember Alex, producer of the VORTEX DECK putting up some mumbo jumbo about KS being a nonbinding contract between backer and producer.

In September of 2012, NPR's show, All Things Considered, ran a piece on accountability of project creators on Kickstarter. In response to that broadcast, Kickstarter posted a Q&A on their official blog. The following is an excerpt from their blog post:

"What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?

If problems come up, creators are expected to post a Project Update (which is emailed to all backers) explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.

It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.

If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill."


This should put to rest any notion that Kickstarter project creators are immune from legal liability for unfulfilled promises from their Kickstarter projects. They can be sued for breach of contract and be compelled to remit appropriate compensatory damages to the aggrieved backers.

[BMPokerworld]

Technically, at least in NJ, the money collected by someone on Kickstarter would probably be considered trust funds. What that means is, the money collected is not allowed to be used for any other purpose except to facilitate the creation and delivery of the item and the money isn't suppose to be co-mingled with general purpose funds until the project is completed, in theory anyway. That being said, it might be very hard to convince a judge to look at the funds that way, especially in this economy and in the event an actual bankruptcy was filed.

In certain cases, it might be easier for a judge to consider the money trust funds if someone has acted in bad faith and he has left numerous rants in the public domain, which shows their bad faith and their lack of adherence to the trust fund statutes. The real advantage is once you can get a judge to agree that the funds are trust monies and that someone violated the trust fund statutes, it is much easier to try to assert a fraud claim, which can lead to treble damages, make them personally libel and possibly open them to criminal prosecution.

I know this because when I had my commercial flooring business, I was able to force a settlement with a general contractor on a several hundred thousand dollar delay claim I had that I was trying to get paid on.

Thanks!

[walrus]

But when we are talking about the majority of backers for projects involving playing cards the funds they put up is relatively small. Would not this make legal recourse more expensive than just saying " bye bye money "

[BMPokerworld]

But when we are talking about the majority of backers for projects involving playing cards the funds they put up is relatively small. Would not this make legal recourse more expensive than just saying " bye bye money "

Clearly, unless you can get the FBI to look at the case as Internet fraud.

EDIT: You could also sue in small claims court which would save a lot of money, but y0u would have to see if you can do it in your home county/state or if you would have to do it it the creator's home county/state.

Walrus Clarification: You home iceberg or their home iceberg

[Strag]

But when we are talking about the majority of backers for projects involving playing cards the funds they put up is relatively small. Would not this make legal recourse more expensive than just saying " bye bye money "

Clearly, unless you can get the FBI to look at the case as Internet fraud.

EDIT: You could also sue in small claims court which would save a lot of money, but y0u would have to see if you can do it in your home county/state or if you would have to do it it the creator's home county/state.

Walrus Clarification: You home iceberg or their home iceberg

There is also the BBB and the Attorney General for the state in which the project creator is based.

It's really amazing. There are projects I've backed which are waaaay past their due date and I'm OK with it because they keep me updated and respect me with their updates and answers. Adam's responses are condescending and rude, when we even get them. This is why his backers are not having any patience.