UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

Posted: **Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:14 pm**

This isn't really KS related however it's something worth mentioning. It has been brought to my attention that the coins being sold by Dead on Paper, particularly his $15 Yes No coins can be bought on a Chinese export website for like 50 cents, the exact same thing, same quality. Kind of cheap of him to use coins he didn't even produce himself and sell them at that kind of an upcharge. Just buyer beware I guess. I expected more of him.

Posted: **Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:42 pm**

The coins from Dead on Paper feature the same art that appears on his decks such as Oracle and Arcana. It might be possible that somebody has copied his coin design or the factory that he used to make his coins originally kept the mold/cast and mass produced using it. Since a huge cost involved with producing coins is in the designing and creating a mold, once it exists it's not surprising they can be reproduced very cheaply especially if they're being mass produced or made out of cheaper materials. Obviously i can't say for certain that is what has happened here but worth considering.

Posted: **Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:24 am**

jerichoholic wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:14 pm This isn't really KS related however it's something worth mentioning. It has been brought to my attention that the coins being sold by Dead on Paper, particularly his $15 Yes No coins can be bought on a Chinese export website for like 50 cents, the exact same thing, same quality. Kind of cheap of him to use coins he didn't even produce himself and sell them at that kind of an upcharge. Just buyer beware I guess. I expected more of him.

Yeah, Chris designed these coins. Where's the website that is selling the cheaper versions of his coins?

If he paid for the dies (and he probably did, since those fees are usually included in the cost of setting up the job), he owns them, and if the factory is reusing or re-purposing either his dies or production run overages, he should be aware of it.

Having once worked in the industry (not coin minting, but "ASI" custom manufacturing in general), I know this kind of thing is both unethical and, unfortunately, very common, even so. I had a vendor threaten to do it to me if I didn't buy up all his "mistake" runs. Grrrr.

But, seriously, where did you see these posted?

Posted: **Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:14 am**

I've seen them on AliExpress. You can find a lot of coin "copies" on there.

Posted: **Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:36 pm**

Yeah, I cruised through the site (thanks, Strag, for the tip) and, yeah, it's hard for a creator to protect himself from the kind of IP theft that China-based rip-off artists engage in wholesale.

Posted: **Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:19 pm**

rousselle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:19 am I like the "gray list" idea.

I'm still dragging my feet, hoping that Dave starts to fulfill orders before he actually lands on the list.... Dave! Do it! Get those orders shipped!

Now that he is selling Centurio on his web site and STILL hasn't responded to any direct message anywhere... this scum IS on the black list without question.

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:50 pm**

rousselle wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:36 pm Yeah, I cruised through the site (thanks, Strag, for the tip) and, yeah, it's hard for a creator to protect himself from the kind of IP theft that China-based rip-off artists engage in wholesale.

I went through aliexpress and some other sites as well and shout them a MASSIVE list of the results about 6ish months ago. There is very little that can be done protection wise which kinda sucks aside from report it when it happens, but only the IP holders can report it. I do know that aliexpress takes the infractions seriously, but there are jsut so many of them, and they just pop up again with another shop.

Posted: **Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:06 pm**

Strag wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:19 pm
rousselle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:19 am I like the "gray list" idea.

I'm still dragging my feet, hoping that Dave starts to fulfill orders before he actually lands on the list.... Dave! Do it! Get those orders shipped!
Now that he is selling Centurio on his web site and STILL hasn't responded to any direct message anywhere... this scum IS on the black list without question.

Are the decks on the site shipping before the KS fulfillment or something? Not sure I see the problem with them being on the website.

Posted: **Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:17 pm**

EvilDuncan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:06 pm Are the decks on the site shipping before the KS fulfillment or something?

Exactly that. According to

, GW starts fulfillmemt now though.

It still makes no sense for me that people that always flawlessly fulfilled are on this list but others aren't. Fells more like a "I don't like that guy"-list than a real "be careful where you put your money at"-list

.

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:46 am**

EvilDuncan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:06 pm
Strag wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:19 pm
rousselle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:19 am I like the "gray list" idea.

I'm still dragging my feet, hoping that Dave starts to fulfill orders before he actually lands on the list.... Dave! Do it! Get those orders shipped!
Now that he is selling Centurio on his web site and STILL hasn't responded to any direct message anywhere... this scum IS on the black list without question.
Are the decks on the site shipping before the KS fulfillment or something? Not sure I see the problem with them being on the website.

THe problem is that not ONE person has reported receiving any tracking. So either he is lying on his site selling decks that won't ship or he's continuing to lie to his backers. It also should be that the backers of a KS should receive the decks prior to them being listed for sale.

He also has yet to respond to one single email, KS direct message, US direct message or direct message on any socials, any comment on KS. Why are you so set on defending him after he is more than a year late and has failed on every turn with his last two projects?

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:55 am**

Strag wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:46 am
EvilDuncan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:06 pm
Strag wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:19 pm
rousselle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:19 am I like the "gray list" idea.

I'm still dragging my feet, hoping that Dave starts to fulfill orders before he actually lands on the list.... Dave! Do it! Get those orders shipped!
Now that he is selling Centurio on his web site and STILL hasn't responded to any direct message anywhere... this scum IS on the black list without question.
Are the decks on the site shipping before the KS fulfillment or something? Not sure I see the problem with them being on the website.
THe problem is that not ONE person has reported receiving any tracking. So either he is lying on his site selling decks that won't ship or he's continuing to lie to his backers. It also should be that the backers of a KS should receive the decks prior to them being listed for sale.

He also has yet to respond to one single email, KS direct message, US direct message or direct message on any socials, any comment on KS. Why are you so set on defending him after he is more than a year late and has failed on every turn with his last two projects?

The communication has been one the biggest alarm bells for me, i never received my survey and sent countless messages via various platforms to try get it. In the end i reached out direct to backer kit who were able to help instead.

The other concern for me is the signs that they have been trying to gather funds to actually fulfill this project between the big sales on their website and fact the deck has been listed to purchase on their site before any backers have even got tracking numbers. Makes me questions what happened to the money we pledged which should have gone on producing and fulfilling the deck. It's interesting to note that their website doesn't mention that it is a pre-order and also states that "orders generally ship within 24 hours" I don't know if anybody who has purchased this way has got them yet

It does now at least look very likely we will actually get the centurion deck but for me the damage has already been done, perhaps not black list level but i would at least want to make anybody aware of the issues here before backing future projects. Also the decision to fulfill Centurion before Stories is very unusual.

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:48 pm**

hey guys, I haven't been active for months due to my first baby.... getting back to the hobby now. Looks like something happened to Vanda (Oops I'm a backer for Story deck). I will take a closer look and update the list if neccessary.

On the other hand, I don't think I'm should be the "owner" of this list, people should feel free to add more names to the list to others are aware. Is there a way for Mods to edit the post directly?

Posted: **Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:23 pm**

Oh by the way guys:
It looks like there is another creator to be put in this BlackList
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/el ... k/comments

Elite Magic
People have been complaining about the crazy amount of waiting time. From what I've read, it seemed that Elite Magic have been avoiding people that had asked refund many times, and there was a lot of miscommunications with the fulfilling company Gambler Warehouse

Posted: **Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:20 pm**

I don't think Joker and the Thief should be on this list in the least bit. Yes they did have a snafu on that campaign and they definitely feel bad about it. They are definitely forthcoming and have learned from that mistake. You don't have to be cautious about JNT at all.

Posted: **Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:33 pm**

People love to hold their grudges

. I second what you're saying, J&T is long removed from my personal black list.

Posted: **Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 am**

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:23 pm Oh by the way guys:
It looks like there is another creator to be put in this BlackList
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/el ... k/comments

Elite Magic
People have been complaining about the crazy amount of waiting time. From what I've read, it seemed that Elite Magic have been avoiding people that had asked refund many times, and there was a lot of miscommunications with the fulfilling company Gambler Warehouse

Idk what to make of this yet, this just ended two months ago and people are freaking out - there's campaigns that are outstanding for much longer than that at this point. Reading comments in past campaigns it sounds like they fulfilled but late on those

Posted: **Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:15 pm**

Looks like they just did an update. I didn't back because it reminded me of Elite Playing Cards (might be the same people) and their renders always looked way better than the finished product so I learned to stay away. This one looked to be overly rendered to me as well.

Posted: **Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:13 pm**

Entaro wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 am
laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:23 pm Oh by the way guys:
It looks like there is another creator to be put in this BlackList
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/el ... k/comments

Elite Magic
People have been complaining about the crazy amount of waiting time. From what I've read, it seemed that Elite Magic have been avoiding people that had asked refund many times, and there was a lot of miscommunications with the fulfilling company Gambler Warehouse
Idk what to make of this yet, this just ended two months ago and people are freaking out - there's campaigns that are outstanding for much longer than that at this point. Reading comments in past campaigns it sounds like they fulfilled but late on those

Good god these backers are whining. Decks aren't due until July and they're rioting over a survey delay. Whine when you don't get updates about the deck production or delivery.

Posted: **Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:51 pm**

RichK wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:13 pm
Entaro wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 am
laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:23 pm Oh by the way guys:
It looks like there is another creator to be put in this BlackList
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/el ... k/comments

Elite Magic
People have been complaining about the crazy amount of waiting time. From what I've read, it seemed that Elite Magic have been avoiding people that had asked refund many times, and there was a lot of miscommunications with the fulfilling company Gambler Warehouse
Idk what to make of this yet, this just ended two months ago and people are freaking out - there's campaigns that are outstanding for much longer than that at this point. Reading comments in past campaigns it sounds like they fulfilled but late on those
Good god these backers are whining. Decks aren't due until July and they're rioting over a survey delay. Whine when you don't get updates about the deck production or delivery.

I received my survey today.

Now, I am still waiting on getting my Elite Magic Royale KS campaign decks. They are much later on that one. Those were supposed to be fulfilled back in July 2020. With everything going on in the world today, I am still not too annoyed yet on that one.

Posted: **Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:54 pm**

Now a July 2020 due date I'd be worked up over, but not this one. Things seem odd on KS these days I have projects from like November that say they're super behind on uspc still and ones from just a month ago saying uspc is printing lol plenty of projects to be suspicious of but seems a lot of backers are quick to call everything a scam these days idk

Posted: **Mon May 10, 2021 7:43 am**

sjrosenfield wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:20 pm I don't think Joker and the Thief should be on this list in the least bit. Yes they did have a snafu on that campaign and they definitely feel bad about it. They are definitely forthcoming and have learned from that mistake. You don't have to be cautious about JNT at all.

"We scammed people and feel bad about getting caught." LOL. Yeah, they're worth being concerned about.

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:47 am**

I really think pure imagination projects should be on here. There last campaign has been nothing but the runaround and excuses.

WONDR Playing Cards: The Pyramids (printed by USPCC), via @Kickstarter https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pi ... ject_share

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2022 12:28 pm**

I think Diffractor/VXD Gaming need to be on this list. Their Frozen project is still in limbo since funding in 2019 and their most recent Monte Carlo one is also in limbo. Making too many excuses about current events while many others deliver their goods.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2022 9:33 pm**

Origin 3D Genesis: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sk ... ying-cards
By: Skymember Present
This one is a huge disaster and getting worse day by day (22 May 22)
- Huge funding with radio silence communication
- Empty promises unfulfilled
- Holding backer's rewards hostage and asking for pay-out under the table for a chance of getting what they paid for (no official announcement at all)
- Again, no update and no answer on any platform, basically take $$$ and disappear.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2022 10:39 pm**

Regarding Skymember: I received my deck a few days back after giving them a kick in the pants - trying to contact them again to see if I can’t manage to give them a larger, more general kick so that they may provide an update and commit to a shipping date in the next month (as it seems they claimed to one recent kickstarter commenter via email that they would ship end of May or in June)

As it is Saturday night I will give them a day or three before getting hot over the issue - we will see what comes of it.

Reached out via instagram and email - the same methods I used to contact them last time, and I am quite certain they will get both messages - if they fail to respond I will contact Visa to see what they say you might do, as well as looking up which states have the strongest protection laws so that we can gather a group of backers who have the best recourse to get the ball rolling.

Should they actually be planning on fufilling next month I am sure they will decide to simply post an update and then meet their shipping deadline rather than face a pile of mess.

Even a quick search of the net pulled up a Georgia law regarding back orders that required communication or credit card companies must credit your account next billing cycle - and I am quite sure Washington state has some decent internet fraud protections - lets hope for skymembers sake I don’t have to do some actual research about possible courses of action.

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2022 10:57 pm**

As far as Vanda is concerned - he is in California, and I am quite sure that he never produced cards, so getting them shipped certainly isn’t going to happen, also sure he doesn’t have the money - so pressure on him wont help. I would certainly contact my credit card company and make whatever attempt one might make, but the time that has passed will make that tough - giving him legal troubles might punish him, but punishment for the sake of punishment is a bit outside my purview.

If you preordered from his web site you certainly should contact your card company and try to get it reveresed.

Same for Skymember - if you preordered after the campaign as I did you have a much easier path to recourse should they not fulfill and continue to dodge.

Kickstarter is not a store, but it is also not a legal way to steal money or a bullet proof jacket to protect those who string along or defraud users. The sooner we develop a path of recourse (since Kickstarter obviously doesn’t bother), and the sooner we act after communication fails the better.

I also wish to note that patience and understanding is still to be exercised, and that not every late campaign deserves to burn at the stake.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 7:37 am**

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 10:39 pm Regarding Skymember: I received my deck a few days back after giving them a kick in the pants - trying to contact them again to see if I can’t manage to give them a larger, more general kick so that they may provide an update and commit to a shipping date in the next month (as it seems they claimed to one recent kickstarter commenter via email that they would ship end of May or in June)

As it is Saturday night I will give them a day or three before getting hot over the issue - we will see what comes of it.

Reached out via instagram and email - the same methods I used to contact them last time, and I am quite certain they will get both messages - if they fail to respond I will contact Visa to see what they say you might do, as well as looking up which states have the strongest protection laws so that we can gather a group of backers who have the best recourse to get the ball rolling.

Should they actually be planning on fufilling next month I am sure they will decide to simply post an update and then meet their shipping deadline rather than face a pile of mess.

Even a quick search of the net pulled up a Georgia law regarding back orders that required communication or credit card companies must credit your account next billing cycle - and I am quite sure Washington state has some decent internet fraud protections - lets hope for skymembers sake I don’t have to do some actual research about possible courses of action.

They are quite strange…. I was not the backer of the Origins Genesis, so I get their decks through Backerkit. They quickly send mine right away and decks received. And here I am hearing the backers haven’t received their rewards? Just wow…. I think they prioritize the wrong sides first. Hope you will get yours! I still contemplating whether or not I get the Romance edition (should it STILL be there)

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 8:20 am**

I have spoken with Skymember via instagram, they said:

“Hi Jason, We are preparing our next and last update in following few weeks to conclude the project.”

I asked them to provide an immediate update to that effect.

—-

They replied to my “advice” about giving an immediate update:

“ thank you for your advice. We will post the update when the time is ready”

I told that it was good advice that should be followed, but I that I had passed along their promise of a coming update and would get back on them in a few weeks if none occurred.

I have scheduled a reminder for three weeks from now, at which point I will be less cordial.

They seemed sincere enough, are aware that I have scheduled such an appointment, and as they have dealt with me before recently I am sure they are aware I will be less cordial at that time. They went as far as to thank me for being on the matter, and to “like” my reply that I would be contacting them in three weeks. They did not try to buy more time.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 8:37 am**

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 7:37 am They are quite strange…. I was not the backer of the Origins Genesis, so I get their decks through Backerkit. They quickly send mine right away and decks received. And here I am hearing the backers haven’t received their rewards? Just wow…. I think they prioritize the wrong sides first. Hope you will get yours! I still contemplating whether or not I get the Romance edition (should it STILL be there)

I don’t know how to advise you on that - they may have determined that they can’t delay backerkit purchasers, or you may have been lucky that day - I imagine you could purchase it and if they don’t ship quickly enough you would have easy recourse to get the charge reversed, or you could contact them via email or instagram and ask them to reserve a copy for you so that you may purchase it after they have posted an update to kickstarter and start shipping to backers. If you could manage to pay them via paypal you would have further protection as well.

Posted: **Sat May 28, 2022 1:47 am**

I would like to nominate VXD for blacklisting. They are shipping rewards for two campaigns. One campaign is over two years overdue. There was one post blaming market forces for the delay. Then the creator disappeard.

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