Get MADE! Mob-Themed USPCC BICYCLE (KS)

[ecNate]

Yeah, I don't get all the rage either. Do some of you somehow feel like your deck is devalued if there is a tuck variant or another similar set? Do you just feel 'tricked' into then having to buy them all to complete the collection that's not known up front. I don't see how these could be the issue either, but only thing I can gather. Are you just concerned it will be a failure because of too many options and run the risk of mismanagement or financial troubles? That I can kind of see I guess, especially if I had more than $100 into it.

I'm not interested in paying that much for just a different tuck, but the Empire ULE got me because the tuck was kinda cool AND it had new back and cards. I really liked the Stork Club tuck, but couldn't justify the cost. Disappointing? Yes, but definitely not pissed and feel I need to cancel or rant.

I am annoyed by the confusing add on rudimentary counts via comments, but you're not locked into anything. Right? If you say you wanted early add on deck, but later they announce a better one you can change it. It's clumsy, but that KS and hopefully CL can deal with things like that better.

I'm also thinking some of those prints will go nice in my art deco revival style home theater and bar. If only the cropped tucks were made available as canvas prints too....might have to rename my bar!

[Godzillian]

*** TL;DR at the bottom of this post ***

I guess I'll start at the LEs. We had an idea early on when we were creating this project that we wanted to do a design that paid homage to the two biggest speakeasies in that timeframe, i.e. the Cotton Club and Stork Club. Speakeasies where underground illegal bars during the prohibition era. They were typically frequented and ran by mobsters, and really provided the first "illegal business" operations that were somewhat legit during this time. With that said, we also knew we wanted to do an ENTIRELY new run with different backs, designs, and tucks, and be themed around being a successful mobster (i.e. Kingpin and Empire) but were limited in volume ordering to make the numbers work.

FOUR Limited Editions??? The difference between you and most other Kickstarters is that they announce their new decks well in advance of their actual release. Everyone knew the Hound of the Baskervilles was coming out; everyone knew the Black Ornates were gonna come out. No one knew you were going to release FOUR new decks, out of the blue! I'm sure we'd be less aggressive and annoyed if you had just come out from Day 1, saying that you were going to release 4+ decks if you hit your stretch goals. But no, it's all a secret. Some people like the surprise. Personally, I don't. When I go into a Kickstarter, I want to know how many decks are going to be released for this campaign.

Additionally, it just feels like you're adding more and more decks onto a campaign because it's become a cash cow. You can avoid this by just revealing how many decks you'll be releasing in the campaign via stretch goals.

So, ultimately, we decided the best way to go about this would be to do the LEs as a tuck swap, but include a free matching coin. We figured people wouldn't feel slighted since they're not only getting a high end tuck with embossing and foil stamping, but a high end coin that is both hand signed and has matching edge text to match their deck number. Understanding that not everyone is a "coin collector", but that was a REALLY good deal we thought, and it would enable us to still do our original plan of covering both areas of mob life.

The coin is fine and all. It's just that a few of us don't collect coins, thus the "free" coin is meaningless to us. However, I'm sure the numbers speak for themselves, and clearly there are people who don't mind the coin or increased price.

EDIT: Should also mention, tuck case is not everything.

I get that not everyone collects tuck swaps/variants. And that's totally cool. But, I don't really understand why that's an issue. I guess our logic is that if you like the original artwork, which I really worked hard on, then that's that. Back it and pass on the add-on LE. IMHO it doesn't make sense (at least to me) to pass on an entire project just because something is offered that you don't like. If you go to a restaurant and order a hamburger and the waiter informs you that comes with fries, but you hate fries, you don't get up and leave do you? Like all of our projects we try to offer a LARGE variety of add-ons to appease all walks of life. If you don't want it, that's cool, just pass on adding it.

The burger example is different. You've used burgers in an eating scenario. Are we eating cards? A proper example may be, go into a restaurant, order a burger & fries to collect photos of, but it didn't come with fries, then maybe I really would just leave (or at least, not take the photos)! Because all of my burger photos have fries.

You DO offer a large variety of add-ons. That way, you make most people happy. The only people you're forgetting is the OCD "Collect-em-all" collectors. If I get 1, I need to have them all.

There's TONS of decks out there that offer multiple decks in their projects! Even more then us! They range from swaps, to minor color changes, to material differences. We didn't create the wheel by any stretch of the imagination. We aim to offer cool cards to collectors, and cool accessories. That's it. We just want to make everyone happy and produce a satisfying product.

Please refer to my first paragraph.

I can list a number of successful decks that are guilty of this though. The worst offender is the Muertos DotD deck. They released 3 decks at once, when only 1 was supposed to come out. However, they gave us notice of the 1 deck, at least.

Meurtos Day of the Dead: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/st ... ying-cards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ornate White Edition: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13 ... te-edition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Different Deck: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/te ... reinvented" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JR's Sherlock Holmes: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/17 ... -card-deck" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kingdoms of a New World: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/16 ... inted-by-b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Black Book of Cards: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/81 ... k-of-cards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JR's Independence: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/17 ... nav_search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope you see the difference between your campaign and all of these other ones. They all gave some sort of notice of a new deck(s) coming in. Most of these campaigns tell you that from Day 1. Your campaign pops out new decks outta nowhere. Overall, it looks bad on you guys... looks like you're milking the cash cow. That's why I complain about your business strategy and not theirs.

As for the ULEs, I don't see why anyone would complain about those. They are after all, what you guys have been saying you wanted. Different backs, different design, and different tucks. ALL NEW! I have no problem with someone saying they don't like the design. That I can at least wrap my head around.

Well, I can't complain about the ULEs. I do like them, but again, I need to collect them all, and the Speakeasy decks aren't special enough.

We had to offer your choice of tucks, do to the minimum order of 2500 from Bicycle. 2500 isn't a very limited run if you ask me, so we opted to split the deck and offer 1250 Empire and 1250 Kingpin. Each hand signed and custom numbered seal.

Holy crap, you're going to hand sign 2500 decks?!?!?! I can't even imagine!!!

I'm sure all of us appreciate you coming here and try to explain your business strategy. I really like the deck, but I can't approve of the whole "SURPRISE! WE GOT 2 DECKS FOR YOU! OH LOOK, ANOTHER 2!" thing. No surprises pls.

Do you just feel 'tricked' into then having to buy them all to complete the collection that's not known up front. I don't see how these could be the issue either, but only thing I can gather.

Yes, actually. I do feel tricked! Again, it just feels like they're trying to milk the cash cow. I'm sure this is not their intention, so I hope they are more transparent in their next campaign(s).

*** TL;DR ***
(1) State how many decks you intend to release during your campaign (via stretch goals)
(2) Make most of your stretch goals transparent
(3) Announce the deck a few days in advance of its actual release

[Gruul]

Geez Louise guys, we can't win!

I'm not entirely sure if even saying anything on here will do any good, because I think some of you have painted us into this image that we're not. But, I figure it's worth a shot, so that's got to count for something.

I guess I'll start at the LEs. We had an idea early on when we were creating this project that we wanted to do a design that paid homage to the two biggest speakeasies in that timeframe, i.e. the Cotton Club and Stork Club. Speakeasies where underground illegal bars during the prohibition era. They were typically frequented and ran by mobsters, and really provided the first "illegal business" operations that were somewhat legit during this time. With that said, we also new we wanted to do an ENTIRELY new run with different backs, designs, and tucks, and be themed around being a successful mobster (i.e. Kingpin and Empire) but were limited in volume ordering to make the numbers work.

So, ultimately, we decided the best way to go about this would be to do the LEs as a tuck swap, but include a free matching coin. We figured people wouldn't feel slighted since they're not only getting a high end tuck with embossing and foil stamping, but a high end coin that is both hand signed and has matching edge text to match their deck number. Understanding that not everyone is a "coin collector", but that was a REALLY good deal we thought, and it would enable us to still do our original plan of covering both areas of mob life.

I get that not everyone collects tuck swaps/variants. And that's totally cool. But, I don't really understand why that's an issue. I guess our logic is that if you like the original artwork, which I really worked hard on, then that's that. Back it and pass on the add-on LE. IMHO it doesn't make sense (at least to me) to pass on an entire project just because something is offered that you don't like. If you go to a restaurant and order a hamburger and the waiter informs you that comes with fries, but you hate fries, you don't get up and leave do you? Like all of our projects we try to offer a LARGE variety of add-ons to appease all walks of life. If you don't want it, that's cool, just pass on adding it.

There's TONS of decks out there that offer multiple decks in their projects! Even more then us! They range from swaps, to minor color changes, to material differences. We didn't create the wheel by any stretch of the imagination. We aim to offer cool cards to collectors, and cool accessories. That's it. We just want to make everyone happy and produce a satisfying product.

As for the ULEs, I don't see why anyone would complain about those. They are after all, what you guys have been saying you wanted. Different backs, different design, and different tucks. ALL NEW! I have no problem with someone saying they don't like the design. That I can at least wrap my head around.

We had to offer your choice of tucks, do to the minimum order of 2500 from Bicycle. 2500 isn't a very limited run if you ask me, so we opted to split the deck and offer 1250 Empire and 1250 Kingpin. Each hand signed and custom numbered seal.

I understand some people are just naturally going to gripe and moan. That's cool. It's your prerogative to do so. But I've been monitoring this message board since day one, and even spoken to a handful of you personally, so I can promise our intentions are good and come from the heart!

We love playing cards and even all you quirky collectors, as we're collectors ourselves, but please don't twist our best intentions into something they're not!

I'm sure if you talk to some of your fellow posters, they can vouch for us that we're good peeps.

Thank you for letting us know a little about the thought process you guys went through. Happy to hear that your visions have a chance at being printed. I think my questions echo yours in trying to figure out where the vinegar is coming from.

@Godzillian

Thank you for the breakdown. I see where you are coming from. In your opinion, should a kickstarter designer limit the amount of choices he offers to the masses, "OCD collectors" or not? I think there have been many positive decks that come out with different editions that weren't announced on day 1. Would it have been different for you if he announced his next stretch goal as the previous one hit?

[louizz]

@GodZillian! This is a WONDERFUL response, and I thank you for it! It's really difficult balancing the hardcore versus the hardercore .

The surprise tiers/unlocks are a bit of a double edge sword. Some people really hate them, but some people really love them. LOL. I suppose maybe the next deck we do, we'll try it more transparent. I guess at the end of the day, I really just want people to like what we're doing. We're doing this because we LIKE doing it (minus all the groin kicks). you all are our audience. period. end of story. However, that audience runs the FULL spectrum so it's a little of how to make everyone happy type scenario. The only time I've been truly upset on here was when a few posters said that they were "done with Crooked Kings". That honestly, made me sad. It's only our 3rd (second truly successful) deck, on KS, and it's very off putting to see that. If anything, I would think you all as collectors would want to see even MORE designers coming along and trying their hand at it. After all, that means more options for all of us who collect! Saying discouraging words does not do anyone any good, and limits the options to all of us.

The fact that we are learning and don't know every aspect of everyone's opinion out the gate doesn't mean we should be cast aside into eternal darkness forevermore! Just don't back it, and put some suggestions up on the forums.

From my stand point, I see that lot's of the main combatants of the deck liked it originally when it came out. So that shouldn't flip to "THEY SHALL NEVER DO A PROJECT AGAIN"!!!! LOL

It's a learning process, and trial and error are all over the place. I hope that some if not all of you reconsider, the "No on CK" stance, as we're really good folks!

As for the gotta collect them all folks, is that a thing? I feel like I'd be broke if it were. LOL

[louizz]

I should also address the cash cow aspect. 2500 for the ULE decks is literally like starting an entirely new project. I can't tell you the negotiated rates between us and Bicycle, but I assure you it's over a 5 digit number just for those alone. The likelyhood of us breaking even on those is high. The likelihood of us making "cash cow" money, slim to none! We don't do things solely to make money. Of course we are a "company", but I still go sit in front of a desk for 8 hours just like most of you- and it's not designing cards (although, I wish it were)

We did the ULEs carrying a lot of risk financially, becuase we thought that it would accent the collection nicely. Not because it makes money. Let me out it this way, we launched at 35k, and are at 39,345 now. We still wwwaaaaayyyyyyyy off from even breaking even on this add-on. It's a labor of love, and groin kicks... but, mostly love.

[Godzillian]

Thank you for the breakdown. I see where you are coming from. In your opinion, should a kickstarter designer limit the amount of choices he offers to the masses, "OCD collectors" or not? I think there have been many positive decks that come out with different editions that weren't announced on day 1.

Of course not! But there needs to be a limit to how many decks come out in one campaign. Also, those positive decks don't announce and release their new edition decks on the same day. Those campaigns give a 1 or 2-week notice before the new version actually comes out. My point was that, some notice would've been nice, even if it was only a 1 or 2-day notice.

Would it have been different for you if he announced his next stretch goal as the previous one hit?

It would've been completely different. I would be able to keep track of the cash I wanted to spend on the project. If they come out with another surprise 2 decks (for a total of 8), I would be even more annoyed. I think the question is, when is enough enough? If they stuck with 4 decks, 2 of which were a surprise, I would be more agreeable. However, I suspected there were going to be at least 1 more deck, and lo and behold, here they are.

@GodZillian! This is a WONDERFUL response, and I thank you for it! It's really difficult balancing the hardcore versus the hardercore .

It's nice of you to take my response in such stride. I know a few designers who can't take a few "groin kicks". But knowing that you CAN, really improves my impression of Crooked Kings.

I suppose maybe the next deck we do, we'll try it more transparent.

This would be nice. I don't really see any downside to telling your potential funders what decks you want to release for your stretch goals. At the same time, you don't need to announce your future decks from Day 1. You can do it maybe a week or 2 weeks before the actual release.

The only time I've been truly upset on here was when a few posters said that they were "done with Crooked Kings". That honestly, made me sad. It's only our 3rd (second truly successful) deck, on KS, and it's very off putting to see that. If anything, I would think you all as collectors would want to see even MORE designers coming along and trying their hand at it. After all, that means more options for all of us who collect! Saying discouraging words does not do anyone any good, and limits the options to all of us.

I think I'm done with Crooked Kings. Too many "Limited Edition" tucks & not enough changes to the Limited Edition cards themselves to justify the higher price. They did this with Vikings too. I didn't approve of it then, and I still don't approve of it now. The coin thing is interesting, but I don't collect coins and it's just a way for them to increase the prices on the Limited Edition decks. Dropped my EB Double Double pledge.

Yeah, I think a lot of us went overboard on that, including me... actually maybe just me. It's a pretty stupid thing to say. I apologize for my rash statement.

Also, I think I was too general in my past posts, so I'm glad I could clarify my concerns & gripes for you. It's also helped me gather my thoughts and find what exactly turned me off the project.

As for the gotta collect them all folks, is that a thing? I feel like I'd be broke if it were. LOL

Yeah, what ends up happening is that we become more selective as to what projects to fund.

I'm still keeping tabs on the project (this thread, mostly), and I may actually still go for a (2+2)+(1+1)+(1+1) or a (2+2)+(0+0)+(2+2), but it just costs so much to get everything... But your stoic appearance here and your ability to take (sometimes overexaggerated) critique really helps with my choices Expect me back in by the end of the campaign.

I should also address the cash cow aspect. 2500 for the ULE decks is literally like starting an entirely new project. I can't tell you the negotiated rates between us and Bicycle, but I assure you it's over a 5 digit number just for those alone. The likelyhood of us breaking even on those is high. The likelihood of us making "cash cow" money, slim to none! We don't do things solely to make money. Of course we are a "company", but I still go sit in front of a desk for 8 hours just like most of you- and it's not designing cards (although, I wish it were)

We did the ULEs carrying a lot of risk financially, becuase we thought that it would accent the collection nicely. Not because it makes money. Let me out it this way, we launched at 35k, and are at 39,345 now. We still wwwaaaaayyyyyyyy off from even breaking even on this add-on. It's a labor of love, and groin kicks... but, mostly love.

It's good of you to explain the actual logistics of the ULEs. First glance, yes, it still seems like a cash cow. But after your explanation, I understand your perspective more now.

[Strag]

I feel the LEs with a coin are a great deal. I'm now a backer.

[louizz]

Yeah, I think a lot of us went overboard on that, including me... actually maybe just me. It's a pretty stupid thing to say. I apologize for my rash statement.

Also, I think I was too general in my past posts, so I'm glad I could clarify my concerns & gripes for you. It's also helped me gather my thoughts and find what exactly turned me off the project.

Yeah, those are the only statements (of which you weren't the only one) that I was like, whoa guys, let's keep it classy. I appreciate your apology, but understand you are simply passionate about what you do! I can appreciate that!

I'm not sure why people automatically gyrate towards the worst case scenario, but like I said we're really just two dudes, who love cards and making them! It think it's completely understandable to have differing opinions. Now it's our job to try and incorporate them! I'm glad you we were able to hash this out! Hopefully, the other posters on this forum will agree? maybe? hopefully?

As for the project. I really love it and I put a lot of effort into making something cool and unique. I hope that comes through.

It would've been completely different. I would be able to keep track of the cash I wanted to spend on the project. If they come out with another surprise 2 decks (for a total of 8), I would be even more annoyed. I think the question is, when is enough enough? If they stuck with 4 decks, 2 of which were a surprise, I would be more agreeable. However, I suspected there were going to be at least 1 more deck, and lo and behold, here they are.

Out next project will be transparent. We'll see how it goes.

I'm still keeping tabs on the project (this thread, mostly), and I may actually still go for a (2+2)+(1+1)+(1+1) or a (2+2)+(0+0)+(2+2), but it just costs so much to get everything... But your stoic appearance here and your ability to take (sometimes overexaggerated) critique really helps with my choices Expect me back in by the end of the campaign

That's great news and I hope it comes to fruition! I think it's a great deck and I know whoever gets it will too! As for my thick skin, I'm a designer. Shouldn't most folks who've been to art school be able to take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism?

It's good of you to explain the actual logistics of the ULEs. First glance, yes, it still seems like a cash cow. But after your explanation, I understand your perspective more now.

I can totally see how someone would interpret it like that, but the #s don't lie. If we wanted to do a cash grab, we would have only done another tuck swap. On a side note, we were actually going to offer custom zippo lighters with the ULE pledge, but we couldn't get the numbers to work, and we figured some collectors would be off-put by the price jump to accommodate. You also might notice that the price for the ULEs are VERY reasonable considering we have to run 2500 more decks. lol!

Thanks again! And I'll keep monitoring from afar!

[MagikFingerz]

This is why I love this place

[Mike Ratledge]

At least he's consistent. I think these work better than Viking, really - at least they aren't all the same decks in different tucks.

[Sher]

This is why I love this place

Me too

Louizz, kudos for the way you've handled the criticism here. An artist who can handle criticism as well as you can deserves all the success.

[Bikefanatic]

1. The term "Ultra Limited Edition" deck sounds hilarious to me. Seems like only 10 of them are made. I'm diggin' the Kingpin version because the tuck looks better plus red and black symbolizes danger and fear. I went to this Italian restaurant once and their bathroom was in red and black tile, it looked wonderful.

2a. For any future KS card projects, the creators SHOULD NOT hide their add-on or unlockables. They should just have them all displayed so it'll motivate people to reach certain goal points and to know which decks they want. If there's new content to be added then a week or two notice would be fine.

2b. For example, for the Bicycle Dia De Los Muertos, we knew there would be 3 decks, we knew how they'll look and the certain funding goals it took to get to them which is a great example how it should be done.

2c. For the Muertos Day Of The Day deck, I got all 5 because I liked all of them though the last 3 will be EPCC which I don't care. I don't have the "catch'em all" mentality but if I like them all then I'll get them all. It's good Steve offered all three instead of just one. To drop your pledge because you feel to have all decks in a set but don't like or can't afford all of them makes no sense. If there's a set of 6 decks, three of them I don't like, I won't get them because why have decks you don't like or won't use!? Seems like a waste of money that could go toward another deck you do like.

[volantangel]

When a campaign pumps out limited edition decks after limited edition decks, whether they are tuck swaps or design changes, it just screams "hey it's limited edition ! YOU HAVE TO GET IT, DONT MISS OUT" everyone in the game knows that KS decks are limited in it's own way, the emphasis on LIMITED EDITION is turning me off, and yes ULTRA LIMITED EDITIONS even more so. So yea, this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If people like the LE decks go on producing them, no one can stop you.

And like I've mentioned before, the tuck designs are far from elegant, especially if they are the main selling point of a tuck swap.

[Bikefanatic]

When a campaign pumps out limited edition decks after limited edition decks, whether they are tuck swaps or design changes, it just screams "hey it's limited edition ! YOU HAVE TO GET IT, DONT MISS OUT" everyone in the game knows that KS decks are limited in it's own way, the emphasis on LIMITED EDITION is turning me off, and yes ULTRA LIMITED EDITIONS even more so. So yea, this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If people like the LE decks go on producing them, no one can stop you.

And like I've mentioned before, the tuck designs are far from elegant, especially if they are the main selling point of a tuck swap.

So you're saying that instead of saying a deck is limited, would "exclusive" or "alternate" be better? No salesperson can convince me to buy something I don't want. I understand how they use certain phrases to get people to do so but if the people fall for it then it's their fault.

[Sher]

"Limited" has a dictionary definition but people argue about its meaning all the time. Something with a 2,500 run may be limited to some people, not so much others. So any person promoting a deck that uses the word "limited" may not satisfy anyone.

Different examples of "Limited" Editions:
- Uusi's LE Red Bohemia deck: 2,500 run
- Jackson's Unbranded Black Reserve Note: 1,000 numbered (I can't say run because there are extras that are not numbered... Some used for the force decks, not sure what happened to the rest, though I believe they are NOT in circulation).
- Jackson's Sherlock Holmes LE Bakerstreet: 1,000 available but was a tuck swap
- Edgy Brother's Dia de Los Muertos LE: 1,000 available but was a tuck swap
- Uncommon Beat's Black Book of Cards Bicycle Branded: 500 vertical, 500 horizontal, both tuck swaps

- Also, some vintage collectors treasure decks that had a print run of 10,000 or more. These decks weren't initially marketed as "limited" but over time only few remain in good condition precisely because very few people thought to preserve something so common. Most of the time I know we discuss the term "limited" in the context of modern decks, but I stuck this in just in case someone tried to make this argument about the vintage decks...

To be clear, Godzillian's issue with the additional decks is not being given prior notice to them at all, making the additional decks seem like cash grabs. We have clarified that this isn't the case. This discussion about the use of the term "limited" seems like a separate but related issue.

[volantangel]

Of course it just boils down to sales tactics, the reason I'm turned off, is because the message I'm receiving here is focused on the limited-ness of the decks, rather than the product itself, of course rareness is an attribute of the product, but it should never be the focus. That being said, it's what I'm receiving and it might not be the message they are sending out.

[Sher]

of course rareness is an attribute of the product, but it should never be the focus.

While I agree with this, though I must admit that sometimes how "limited" or "rare" a deck is very tempting and sometimes is the deciding factor when I'm on the fence about a deck. Of course, I really really are about the design too... I don't care much for the CPC's LE Bicycle Old Masters, but I jumped at the chance to grab one of the Origin's Grail.

[louizz]

Of course it just boils down to sales tactics, the reason I'm turned off, is because the message I'm receiving here is focused on the limited-ness of the decks, rather than the product itself, of course rareness is an attribute of the product, but it should never be the focus. That being said, it's what I'm receiving and it might not be the message they are sending out.

Hmmm, this is an interesting take. I'm not sure really how to respond other than that the word "limited" is what your referencing when you compare it to something else. What I mean by that, is EVERYTHING is limited. There's no unlimited supply of anything. If you go to an all you can eat buffet, there is certainly a lot of food to eat, but if enough people came, and ate enough food, they would eventually run out until a shipment came in temporarily rendering them "limited".

From my stance, it's purely semantics. We have our standard gold and silver decks which are 2500 each (5000 decks). If we sold more then the 5000 total, we would order more to fulfill that requirement. But even that would have a cap. If we bought 10 billion gold and silver decks, Bicycle would be like, "whoa, we don't have that much stock right now", seemingly rendering those decks "limited". Obviously, that's an outlandish situation, but again, I'm playing devils advocate and it all boils down to your reference point.

Comparatively, if you take the LEs (1500 each for Stork and Cotton, total of 3000 decks) and the ULEs (1250 each of Empire and Kingpin, total of 2500 decks), and then reference the starting decks (2500 gold and silver each, total of 5000 decks) then calling the LEs limited, and the ULEs ultra limited are fitting, as they are going to be less available.

It's also important to factor in reselling of the decks. We (crooked kings) are currently working on our website and plane to offer our decks for sale there. However, this refers to mainly the standard decks. We will print more standard decks from previous projects as needed. But, anything that's limited or higher has a finite number to them, so we will never print anymore. What's out there, is out there. period. Thus making them "limited"

Lastly, IMHO, saying something is limited is a common practice in any selling, collecting, trading, consumer environment. It adds value no matter how you look at it. I believe it would be an even bigger injustice to collectors to say rare, as that is a WHOLE different level. To me, "rare" comes with age, or GREAT scarcity. Furthermore, I think it would be a great injustice to not say anything at all, or just call them, "decks that we didn't print a lot of".

I believe that our LEs and ULEs are very nice designs, as do many people who have sounded off on both here and KS. I get the designs might not be for everyone, but that goes with anything that's created. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to say that we simply our pushing the "limited" aspect and relying on that is a perspective based statement.

I can assure you that we spent at least equal and even more time developing the LEs and ULEs when compared to the standards. Furthermore, the LEs tuck boxes are even more intricate with the embossing and foil stamping then that standards and ULEs. Those tucks are 95% covered in embossing, so the price on those costs more to produce then the standards. The ULEs do not have any foil or embossing, but when you factor in the price to run 1 set of 2500 decks, plus the swap to break the run into 1250 each set, then the price is equal to running an ENTIRELY new deck. (see in one of my previous posts)

It all really goes back to what I said earlier, which is if you don't like the term "limited" that's totally cool, but unfortunately, I don't foresee us or really anyone changing that practice, as it's common place. Additionally, to completely back out of a project, just because you don't like an add-on is odd to me, but again I'll never take up arms against anyone's opinion because it's fruitless. My aim is to solely interject my stances and logic where it's deemed relevant, to better help others, such as yourself, understand where creators are coming from.

Plus, it's important to note that criticism is part of the "job". Someone saying they don't like something is common in this field. All we can do as designers is take that and try to work those elements in as best we can. We're never going to make EVERYONE happy all the time, but the goal is to reach the masses and make them happy. The only time I take offense is when something is unjustly stated or inaccurate. You can tell me you hate my stuff all day, that's cool... well not really, but I can handle that. To say you'll never back anything ever again, is downright mean and hurts the market as a whole.

Creators get on here all the time, as you all ARE THEIR AUDIENCE. You all are who we WANT TO MAKE HAPPY. And, when comments tend to lean towards unproductive or rude, then no one wins. the market is parasitic, and it takes two to tango. In other words, "Keep it classy San Diego"

[Godzillian]

For me, Limited usually doesn't mean anything to me. On the other hand, if you say your deck is limited during the KS campaign, but print out more AFTER, that's bs. I'm sure you guys won't do that.

I've added a TL;DR to my post at the front of this page. Hopefully it makes things less confusing for readers. Sorry for the messy thoughts D:

[MagikFingerz]

It's true, "Limited" simply means "NOT UNlimited" (technically), which is exactly why most card collectors dislike the term. Although your definition of "Unlimited" is too theoretical and very unrealistic, nobody orders 10 billion decks all at once. Time and demand are also deciding factors. When it comes to playing cards, "Unlimited" can be used to describe any deck that is continually sold and reprinted as stock diminishes.

The use of such terms are of course subjective, so I can only offer my personal opinion. "Limited" is used widely enough that I don't really react to it anymore, although when I see it I will expect it to be upheld over time (ie not reprinted after the campaign, like Godzillian said). Putting "Ultra" in front of it just makes it seem silly, especially when there's only 500 (16.67%) less of them than your "Limited" ones. Not to mention that MOST decks on Kickstarter are printed in the same amount, and there are plenty of other decks that are MUCH more limited than these.

[louizz]

Putting "Ultra" in front of it just makes it seem silly, especially when there's only 500 (16.67%) less of them than your "Limited" ones. Not to mention that MOST decks on Kickstarter are printed in the same amount, and there are plenty of other decks that are MUCH more limited than these.

I agree with the Ultra title, if I'm being honest. It was a product of "what the heck do we call these?", and while I don't think it's an inaccurate title comparatively to the numbers, I do think it's a little corny.

We thought about special edition, but I felt that was reserved for something that came in a set... I don't know why though, lol, I just do. They were more "limited" then the "limited's", and "more limited" seemed even worse.

As for the "other decks", again it's all comparative. One could say the "limited decks" your referring to aren't limited to even MORE limited decks that exist. Again, it all is based off your comparison and reference point. But, in general I do agree.

We're still trying to "crack the code", so to speak, on how some of these decks pull off certain numbers and offerings. We're still n00bs at this, but we learn more and more every time we do a project. Case in point, this ENTIRE thread

Some projects offer just crazy limited, special, rare, *insert whatever here* decks, that include ENTIRELY new art and tucks,but only have a run of like 500. Even at 1000 level LEs, we don't get it, because it doesn't line up with Bicycle's ordering amounts (2500 per deck change/1000 per tuck change). We've seriously spent hours trying to figure it out, and we've been told by Bicycle directly, that basically the more business you do with them, the more flexibility you get with volumes... BUT, that doesn't even make sense, because as far as I can tell, a good percentage of these other projects aren't Jackson level projects, which is an entirely different story. Woe is me

If anyone has any insight to this, your input would be MORE than welcomed!

[MagikFingerz]

If a deck has a run of less than 2500, it's not USPCC. Plain and simple. Someone tell me I'm wrong if I am, but I'm pretty sure nobody has ever printed a deck with USPCC at less than 2500 simply because of their pricing.

[louizz]

If a deck has a run of less than 2500, it's not USPCC. Plain and simple. Someone tell me I'm wrong if I am, but I'm pretty sure nobody has ever printed a deck with USPCC at less than 2500 simply because of their pricing.

I don't have anything to pull from right this sec as I'm on my phone, but I'm almost positive I've seen Bicycle branded with less then a 2500 run on it (referring to LEs.)

[Sher]

I think those Bicycle Branded with less than 2,500 are tuck swaps:
- Uncommon Beat's Black Book of Cards: 500 Bicycle Branded Horizontal, 500 Bicycle Branded Vertical, but both were tuck swaps and had the same deck as the unbranded version.
- Nat Iwata's Steampunk Pirates: 1,000(?) Bicycle Branded Black Flag, however many Bicycle Branded Plunder deck, both tuck swaps

Some examples that are not Bicycle branded:
- Jackson Robinson's Sherlock Holmes: 1,000 LE Bakerstreet, tuck swap
- Edgy Brothers' Dia de Los Muertos: 500 LE Unbranded Painted deck, tuck swap

The only deck I recall that had an different back design and was limited to 1,000 was Jackson's Unbranded Black Reserve note. Anything LE that's less than 2,500? Usually a tuck swap.

Side note: people have often expressed that they are tired of tuck swaps, and the trend is now to create at least two different backs. However, some creators still continue to do tuck swaps and make it LEs. Sometimes they get bashed for it, sometimes they don't. Go figure.

I may have missed something though, and maybe there has been an exception to this that I'm not aware of, so feel free to correct me. I've been wrong many times before. Haha.

[Gruul]

@Magikfingerz
Sher nailed it on the head that for the most part, low volume runs are tuck swaps at USPCC. Louizz did touch on another truth that Bicycle will let you run some pretty low numbers if you have a relationship with them. Some clients I work with have done runs of 500 or less on their specialty decks, but, they are regularly in communication with Bicycle and printing a few new decks each year.

[MagikFingerz]

@Magikfingerz
Sher nailed it on the head that for the most part, low volume runs are tuck swaps at USPCC. Louizz did touch on another truth that Bicycle will let you run some pretty low numbers if you have a relationship with them. Some clients I work with have done runs of 500 or less on their specialty decks, but, they are regularly in communication with Bicycle and printing a few new decks each year.

They may LET some people print in small runs, but I'm pretty sure they still have to pay a premium to do so. Which is why it's so rarely done.

[Mike Ratledge]

@Magikfingerz
Sher nailed it on the head that for the most part, low volume runs are tuck swaps at USPCC. Louizz did touch on another truth that Bicycle will let you run some pretty low numbers if you have a relationship with them. Some clients I work with have done runs of 500 or less on their specialty decks, but, they are regularly in communication with Bicycle and printing a few new decks each year.

They may LET some people print in small runs, but I'm pretty sure they still have to pay a premium to do so. Which is why it's so rarely done.

It's kind of strange, really - because I've never seen anyone actually print less than 2500 decks with USPCC period, but I suppose it has happened - in the past. It can't happen any more, because they just won't do it. Now, tuck swaps - they're game for that! I guess Jackson burned 1500 of the Unbranded Reserve Note decks, because as I recall the branded version had different decks in it. I never looked, them being worth $50 a shot sealed.

[bamabenz]

@Magikfingerz
Sher nailed it on the head that for the most part, low volume runs are tuck swaps at USPCC. Louizz did touch on another truth that Bicycle will let you run some pretty low numbers if you have a relationship with them. Some clients I work with have done runs of 500 or less on their specialty decks, but, they are regularly in communication with Bicycle and printing a few new decks each year.

They may LET some people print in small runs, but I'm pretty sure they still have to pay a premium to do so. Which is why it's so rarely done.

It's kind of strange, really - because I've never seen anyone actually print less than 2500 decks with USPCC period, but I suppose it has happened - in the past. It can't happen any more, because they just won't do it. Now, tuck swaps - they're game for that! I guess Jackson burned 1500 of the Unbranded Reserve Note decks, because as I recall the branded version had different decks in it. I never looked, them being worth $50 a shot sealed.

The Federal 52 Limited Edition "Black" Reserve Note share faces with the other Reserve notes -- that's how to get it done.
I asked JR (on UC I think) if he had boxes and boxes under the stairs and he said he did not, that he only had printed the minimum needed to guarantee that he got the 1000 needed.

I bought a few on eBay, and have opened one deck. Very, very nice. The backs aren't pure black, but a great shade of grey with lots of texture. If you're looking to unload a few decks I'll pay you $100 each.
/bama

[Norbie]

Crooked Kings, didn't you know that it's bad to find and use a "Cash Cow" to your advantage so as to make more money!

Can't you see that this is a road that none of us ever taken, and will never take even if it ever was handed to us in the future.

You can only image the high numbers Golden Spike Playing Cards would be having if he went ahead with all the different tucks he was originally planning to go with.

[louizz]

Crooked Kings, didn't you know that it's bad to find and use a "Cash Cow" to your advantage so as to make more money!

Can't you see that this is a road that none of us ever taken, and will never take even if it ever was handed to us in the future.

You can only image the high numbers Golden Spike Playing Cards would be having if he went ahead with all the different tucks he was originally planning to go with.

.........huh?