ONDA V2 by Jocu [KS June 20]

[laitostarr777]

Hello everyone!

Just a quick note that we received the first samples of cards printed at the Fournier facility through Cartamundi after their moving of production.

The samples are great - pretty much identical to what we're used to from Belgium and although there have been some behind the scenes tweaks to varnish etc you'd be hard pressed to notice any difference between the two.

Saw this just now. Now I'm confused, why Jocu and Omar is saying 2 different things about the new stock/varnish?

Different opinions, I supposed. Like how one still prefer USPCC on their handling despite their offset drama everytime - or how one prefers Legends for longevity (and smells)

[Disenchanted_11]

Can it really be subjective to differing opinions? The only question is if the new stock is comparable to slimline b9 or not.

[Adamthinks]

Hello everyone!

Just a quick note that we received the first samples of cards printed at the Fournier facility through Cartamundi after their moving of production.

The samples are great - pretty much identical to what we're used to from Belgium and although there have been some behind the scenes tweaks to varnish etc you'd be hard pressed to notice any difference between the two.

Saw this just now. Now I'm confused, why Jocu and Omar is saying 2 different things about the new stock/varnish?

Different opinions, I supposed. Like how one still prefer USPCC on their handling despite their offset drama everytime - or how one prefers Legends for longevity (and smells)

I think it comes down to what they're looking for. Jocu decks are designed around art first that they want to also handle well. Omar's branding is based around luxury first and the little details of how the decks handle, feel, and look matter a bit more. Also the more detailed foiling that TGW does for its decks would be affected more by differences in texture than a Jocu deck would.

[Jocu]

Hello everyone!

Just a quick note that we received the first samples of cards printed at the Fournier facility through Cartamundi after their moving of production.

The samples are great - pretty much identical to what we're used to from Belgium and although there have been some behind the scenes tweaks to varnish etc you'd be hard pressed to notice any difference between the two.

Saw this just now. Now I'm confused, why Jocu and Omar is saying 2 different things about the new stock/varnish?

Different opinions, I supposed. Like how one still prefer USPCC on their handling despite their offset drama everytime - or how one prefers Legends for longevity (and smells)

I think it comes down to what they're looking for. Jocu decks are designed around art first that they want to also handle well. Omar's branding is based around luxury first and the little details of how the decks handle, feel, and look matter a bit more. Also the more detailed foiling that TGW does for its decks would be affected more by differences in texture than a Jocu deck would.

It's a moot point now unfortunately.

I post the update I just made on ONDA. I'm sure there will be lots of discussion as this obviously affects more than our projects, and we hope to be able to answer peoples questions in the coming days but needless to say we're devastated and this is a massive issue not just for current projects but for future ones.

Hi guys, I'm going to keep this quick as I've just received a bombshell from Cartamundi and we have a lot of work to do to resolve the situation.

As many of you will be aware from talking with other suppliers, the move from Belgium to Spain was until recently going relatively to plan and we had been assured from our contacts at Cartamundi - two of whom we have worked with for over four years on all our projects - that everything was going to plan.

Well unfortunately last week, our main contact and the man behind all the original B9 innovation and all the push for custom playing cards in the past few years left the company quite suddenly for ‘a new venture’.

This set off alarm bells, but we had just received good samples of the decks and were promised pricing this week.

Long story short, that didn’t happen and we now receive news that there’s an issue internally and production cannot start until September 2024 which is obviously not just unacceptable, but the last straw.

I’d first like to apologise for the situation - we have always worked with Cartamundi as the world’s biggest card producer and are as shocked and disappointed as all of you will be with this eventuality. In short it has huge ramifications for the entire world of playing cards and our business, and we have wasted 6 months being strung along only to be hung out to dry.

The fact is we are now faced with a decision where we must change supplier. I don’t think many will disagree with this choice but do let me know in the comments below.

As ONDA does not feature foiling, we are open to both USPCC and WJPC but we have no experience with either, so will be spending the next few days communicating with our friends in the industry such as TWI and Stockholm 17 for their views on working with these printers.

I’m afraid we’ll need a bit of time to come up with a plan and it’s not going to be easy, but I appreciate your further patience while we get this resolved and get your decks into production. There are obviously many variables to consider but the important thing is that you get a quality product and these factories are among the best in the world.

I don’t have much else to say right now as we’re still digesting the information, but needless to say I’m angry that our trust in Cartamundi has resulted in us, other creators and all our customers having the piss taken out of us for six months only to be let down.

We ask for your patience over the next few days while we come up with a solution. This update has been written just a few minutes after receiving the news so I imagine there are many questions but please keep them to the update comments section so we can respond easily.

Anthony and Ale

[Jocu]

Here is the email I got from Cartamundi, which at this point is worth taking with a pinch of salt as well, but just so you know what we know.

I’m sorry it took a while, and thank you for your patience.
But besides another setback with the linen finish machine, we have had some internal discussions going on about the production itself and actions to be taken.

Based on the feedback we received from different people on the samples, we decided to do more testing to improve the varnish and linen finish. This however can only be done in June, as we need to wait for varnish development and the revised linen finish machine, as we had another setback on this machine. We will send you new sample decks as soon as available.
As consequence, we can only start up production as from September.

In the meantime, we can already give a price indication for standard decks. Please see quote attached. We assume the cost will not be influenced to much by the varnish. The final price will be confirmed after the tests have been done and the final product has been chosen, but this way you already have some good idea about the price. However, we expect production to start up on September only, as the situation is now.

I’m very sorry about the situation, but we want to start up in the best possible circumstances.

Pricing for special techniques e.g. coldfoil are still under review

If in the meantime you have any questions, please let me know

Full disclosure, this is the email we had previously been working off regarding the production times, sent to us a month ago:

Hope you’re doing fine and want to with you all the best for 2024!!

We had some follow up meetings, and below you can find the update info that came out of it.

The quote for Onda2 is not ready yet. We expect to be up and running with quotes by the end of this month. Please accept our apologies it’s taking so much time, but all needed to be set-up from zero, and went a bit slower than anticipated.
The test of the carddecks have been done and we are very pleased with the result of the improved board and finish. I can send you a sample deck in the next days.

As we expect to be able to send out quotes approximately end of January, we would be able to accept orders shortly after to start up production as from end February. (based on the current samples)
Prepress should be checking the Onda files next week. If you have other project you’d like to have quoted, please send me quantities and specs, and there are not standard pricings yet. I’ll pass them on for calculation as well then.

If you have any further questions, please let me know

Have a nice weekend.

As a small business I expect this kind of thing from small suppliers like us, but not an international corporation.

As you can imagine this is a complete mess, and we have to now sit down with new suppliers to see who can meet our expectations. It'll be a long few days. Thank you for your patience.

[vasta41]

I cannot speak for everyone but I am in no rush to receive these cards. Sucks the Cartamundi has been jerking you around but for what it's worth, I'm not breathing down your neck. I trust whatever decision you make and will be happy whenever I receive these decks.

Good luck but try to take a deep breath! I don't see how anyone can blame you for what happened. Yes, you have an obligation to your backers. But I feel as though I am still in good hands. I know we all appreciate your communication!

[Adamthinks]

Long story short, that didn’t happen and we now receive news that there’s an issue internally and production cannot start until September 2024 which is obviously not just unacceptable, but the last straw.

Holy shit. What the heck is going on over there. An extra 8 month delay over their original estimate? How can there business even maintain over that time? I'm guessing Omar's supposition that only custom card projects were moving to Spain and the Belgium factory remained open for the rest has to be true. That really really sucks for all the producers that have been left in the lurch. Jocu has been my favorite producer so I trust you'll find a good solution and I'm plenty happy to wait while you do.

[Evilgamer]

what a poop situation. But maybe they are taking the initial feedback (and perhaps their own feelings) on the test decks that were going around and will take the time to actually figure out how to make the high quality stuff they were known for.

It doesnt change my overall opinion though, no one should be printing decks with them that they need to be AAA decks for the first 6 months of this new production or accept "waiting on them to figure it out".

Their inability to actually communicate at ANY part of this whole mess from the shutdown to rug pulling again right when decks were supposed to be printed theres no excuse for.

[kevork]

I personally think WJPC is overhyped and not as amazing as people say. I still think USPCC handles best and we've seen Expert come out with some beautiful stuff. But if it's a popularity contest, my voice is in the minority. I do think WJPC does better foiling only because Cartamundi's linen texture does mess with how the foiling shows up. Less of an issue for now with Jocu decks but if they decide to pursue foiling, that'll be a different issue. Maybe it's beneficial to develop a relationship with WJPC now, but I'm also not pressed to get these cards anytime soon. If we need to wait until after September for ONDA specifically, that's fine by me. I'd understand new projects needing to look elsewhere though.

[Adamthinks]

It's going to be interesting, moving forward, to see what happens with Cartamundi. It's going to take a lot to rebuild trust with producers after all of this. I imagine any decks that were in process there will now be moving to a new printer for their project. Once they are finally actually up and running, who will be willing to jump to be the first guinea pig now? With no orders for an entire year ( since the shutdown for custom cards in Belgium) , frankly I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to shutdown the new Spain facility for custom cards entirely in the end. That's a long time to operate without any revenue for a segment of the industry that is comparably small and with what I'm sure has been an expensive move. That would really suck for the custom card niche so I really hope that doesn't happen and they eventually get everything sorted and up to their previous quality.

[Disenchanted_11]

If they end up shutting down anyway, it would look like Cartamundi's move to Spain was a last-ditched attempt to save the department, else they're just going to cut the losses. They must've been feeling the decline in custom playing cards and that was a hill they're not going to die on.

They have USPCC after all.

[Fenrir]

If they end up shutting down anyway, it would look like Cartamundi's move to Spain was a last-ditched attempt to save the department, else they're just going to cut the losses. They must've been feeling the decline in custom playing cards and that was a hill they're not going to die on.

They have USPCC after all.

I was just going write something similar. That and the Playing Cards market is so small compared to what else they do.

[Evilgamer]

The thing is, there IS a market there and they were the largely held "top dog" in that market for high end cards with people willing to pay a premium to use them over the Chinese brands.

I certainly get that profit margin or profit/hour they might have been able to make much more printing MTG cards using those machines, and maybe thats what happened.

But they certainly could have set up their processes and prices to turn a profit on that line. Whether thats literally prices or minimum print runs or whatnot.
Instead they without almost any warning just...stopped printing with what has turned out to be a year of no alternate plan.

I know that WJPC has (had to?) increase their minimum print runs since this all started

[Fenrir]

This is the best free advertising that KS or WJPC could have asked for. Maybe even Legends and Expert as well.

[Evilgamer]

This is the best free advertising that KS or WJPC could have asked for. Maybe even Legends and Expert as well.

Yes this is either the best or worst thing ever to happen to WJPC, they are getting a lot of business and any mistakes they make are going to be amplified. Hopefully their quality doesnt start dipping.

I haven't seen Legends or Expert really come up as a option but I can certainly see them getting more business.

Kingstar...like I said other than TWI and asian producers...not...yet? Maybe its coming if WJPC starts giving people dates too far in the future.

[zlexander]

Ive handled alot of Kingstar decks and I dont have any complaints with them , they smelled good and some decks felt better than USPCC in terms of thickness and softness of edges

[Eric Lee]

Now's the time to give JR's printer, Tong Heng Printing a try as well, if it comes to art decks. Not sure how his recent non-foiled decks stack with the other Chinese brands, including LPCC, EPCC and TPCC.

[Evilgamer]

Honestly I don't think KWP's print quality has been up there with decks coming out of TWI or S17, i.e. USPCC and WJPC decks.

Some of that is just difference in art style and how frugally he uses foil. But even the two towers deck is nice but not S17 nice.

thats not to say I dont LIKE KWP decks, Im about to pledge for 2 more today but.....yeah.

[Fenrir]

I fully agree with Evilgamer. The new KWP print quality has been lacklustre. I wouldn't print with them over anyone else.

[Jocu]

Finally we are underway with assembly. Boschiero has done a phenomenal job as usual!

[Jocu]

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