UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

rjtomlinson1977 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:36 am

brownsl wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:37 am I have not received my pledge yet. I assume my box will also not be in good shape. Another disappointing thing with this campaign is I added on for a couple of the jumbo titanic decks and he decide not to make them, I got a set of other decks, some of which I already had.

'
Is this not you.....

Hi RJ,

I will do the second option, convert to regular sized ones.

Thanks,

Shawn


It sounds like you opted for option 2. If I recall, I sent you several decks. But here you are acting like I screwed you. Thanks.

Seriously, I understand why you are being extremely defensive but I did not say you screwed me. Just disappointed in what I received as substitute decks. Disappointed that you solicited Jumbo decks but never produced them. I still think the Titanic tarot cards look awesome and am looking forward to seeing them.

Well, mine arrived intact and required no reconstruction. Aside from the known printing error, my entire set is as expected. I'm also not steamed about the printing error, there are already plans in place to correct it and I'm forgiving of mistakes if they are fixed.

I think it's a good looking deck that lives up to expectations. If I had any criticism, it's that the high number cards are repetitive; it's pretty obvious that at some point ideas dried up for creative illustrations to incorporate 10 wands, 10 cups, etc. Not a big deal since, if I'm being honest, even the best tarot decks end up producing odd looking scenes for some of the number cards.

On the positive side, the major arcana is inspired. This is honestly 10/10 work, the illustrations are not only excellent, the style is appropriate to the subject, and the creativity in smoothly fitting Titanic imagery into tarot cards is so clever it leaves you wondering how this wasn't thought of 50 years ago. Card stock quality is actually quite good for a tarot deck - it's very thick and heavy, but that's a good thing, and it doesn't feel cheap. As my box was not broken, I would also say it's really nice. I enjoyed the passenger documents, small feelies like this included for free never sell a campaign for me but they always put a smile on my face when I get them.

rjtomlinson1977 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:47 am Are you from a Asian country? I've been noticing that most if not all of these broken boxes are arriving in Asian counties.

Same thing happened to my wooden box, and I'm outside of Atlanta in the US

hsbc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:39 pm

rjtomlinson1977 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:47 am Are you from a Asian country? I've been noticing that most if not all of these broken boxes are arriving in Asian counties.

Same thing happened to my wooden box, and I'm outside of Atlanta in the US

See? It's not even in Asia and the wood box fall apart. So? is it still the carrier's mistake?

"Are you from a Asian country?" I'm surprised nobody else has jumped on this. It is becoming all too common for companies to blame the delivery company. If you can't guarantee that an item will arrive safely and undamaged to a certain country (or apparently continent in this case) then simply do not offer to them. Unless of course you're prepared to take full responsibility and make things right if anything goes wrong. When a somebody buys something they have entered into an agreement with the seller, they have not entered into an agreement with the delivery company, manufacturer or fulfillment company. It's the sellers responsibility to ensure the buyer receives the item as described when they purchased it. If it's fragile, that means making sure it's packaged so it can survive being dropped and knocked about as there is not a delivery company in the world that doesn't have that problem. If an item arrives damaged the seller must make things right, sure they can complain and blame the delivery company as much as they like but ultimately they would need to refund or send another. Surely that is why delivery insurance exists so that if the delivery company damages something in transit you can make it right with the buyer without it coming out of your own pocket.

philmyer92 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:12 amIf you can't guarantee that an item will arrive safely and undamaged to a certain country (or apparently continent in this case) then simply do not offer to them. Unless of course you're prepared to take full responsibility and make things right if anything goes wrong. When a somebody buys something they have entered into an agreement with the seller, they have not entered into an agreement with the delivery company, manufacturer or fulfillment company.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's entirely true.

To use a personal example, I once purchased live animals, which were arranged for delivery via Delta, a service that frequently handles live animals and delivers within hours (the time of the flight), minimizing danger and distress to the animal - and in this case the animals were snakes, which certainly don't mind a couple hours in the dark. At any rate, the snakes were misdelivered to an amazon.com warehouse of all things, resulting in their death due to cold.

My dispute was in fact with Delta Airlines, not the seller. The seller did every single thing correctly, Delta handed over my goods to the wrong party resulting in destruction of property. Insurance payout came from Delta. The seller in this case had fulfilled his obligation and owed me nothing at all.

I'm not saying this is exactly the same as what's going on here, but unless the arrangement you describe is understood to be the case up front, there's no reason to assume it's always the way things should be. I can think of plenty of other kinds of transactions or incidents where the delivery service or another third party would obviously and indisputably bear responsibility, not the seller.

If there is evidence that the delivery service made an error, I totally agree that they are at fault, as in your example. For this, I am not sure there is any evidence that the packages have been mishandled by the postal service versus the item shipped being too fragile for the way it was packed. I have not received mine yet and I am curious of the quality of the packing and the quality of the box. The quality of the cards certainly appear top notch from what others have been saying.

Luckily the packing for my thing hasn't been thrown out far yet, so I'll be showing you how I get the package So, mine arrived in this black plastic bag, and when I open, there are NO protective layers or anything. All what I see when opening the bag, it a collapsing box that is poorly fixes with duct tape.

Outsider wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:46 am I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's entirely true.

To use a personal example, I once purchased live animals, which were arranged for delivery via Delta, a service that frequently handles live animals and delivers within hours (the time of the flight), minimizing danger and distress to the animal - and in this case the animals were snakes, which certainly don't mind a couple hours in the dark. At any rate, the snakes were misdelivered to an amazon.com warehouse of all things, resulting in their death due to cold.

My dispute was in fact with Delta Airlines, not the seller. The seller did every single thing correctly, Delta handed over my goods to the wrong party resulting in destruction of property. Insurance payout came from Delta. The seller in this case had fulfilled his obligation and owed me nothing at all.

I'm not saying this is exactly the same as what's going on here, but unless the arrangement you describe is understood to be the case up front, there's no reason to assume it's always the way things should be. I can think of plenty of other kinds of transactions or incidents where the delivery service or another third party would obviously and indisputably bear responsibility, not the seller.

I think the main difference between your really interesting example and what seems to have happened with this box is that it was very evident that delta were at fault, here it's unclear if the damage was caused because of a failure by the delivery company, fulfillment company or manufacturer. A buyer can't possible start contacting them all to figure out what has happened. The seller has selected and has an agreement with all these so it's up to them to get to the bottom of it. To the sellers credit they did actually ask how it was packaged to establish if it was packaged well enough. In your case i agree it was the most straightforward thing to contact delta yourself but I think you would have also been well within your rights to ask the seller to do this for you. It would have had the same results of delta paying out, it would have just gone through the seller first. In many cases delivery companies will only deal with the consignor which in this case is most likely the fulfillment company to complicate matters further should the buyer be expected to seek compensation

This arrangement doesn't need to be stated up front because in many countries this is consumer law and in those that it isn't, it's still a UN guideline. How that governs an international Kickstarter campaign is probably an interesting discussion but perhaps not one for this thread. Regardless it's just good honest practice to not damage your brands reputation, having said that i fear i may be jumping too quickly to conclusions about what has or hasn't been said in private to the 2 people on here and 3 on kickstarter comments have got damaged boxes. It will be interesting to see on the next campaign if a disclaimer is made that Asian deliveries may be subject to uncontrollable damage.

philmyer92 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:38 am It will be interesting to see on the next campaign if a disclaimer is made that Asian deliveries may be subject to uncontrollable damage.

Asian countries and Atlanta

*noms popcorn awaiting further comments*

Yep, that's a bag! Not a box, not a box at all. That is indeed a black plastic bag.
The Plot thickens.

Atlanta delivery also with a broken, very good product, wooden box.
Two murdered wooden boxes by the now infamous "(your postal service)".
Plastic postal bag in evidence, showing a great many wrinkles and crinkles.
Hardcore reaction with claims of racism being claimed by creator.

What will be uncovered next?

I'ma stay tuned to find out more!
(Small text, in this case, means whispering)

Fes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 amHardcore reaction with claims of racism being claimed by creator.

Ironic that he calls it rascist to question Chinese quality but then suspects Asian postal services to be inferior...
*nom nom nom* indeed

Ok, I received my package today and have attached photos below. I am very pleased with everything. Packaging was great, box is in perfect condition, the cards look fantastic. What I find very, very interesting is laitostarr777's comment above where he said he had the black plastic shipping package and then the broken box inside with duct tape. Mine arrived securely bubble wrapped. Did the shipment facility ship some of them out without the protective bubble wrap? If they did how did the duct tape get on the box? Was the package opened during transit, bubble wrap removed to inspect contents, and then thrown back in the bag without bubble wrap.

laitostarr777 can you provide a photo of what was inside the black packaging? Did it look like your package was opened and then taped shut?

brownsl wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:10 am Ok, I received my package today and have attached photos below. I am very pleased with everything. Packaging was great, box is in perfect condition, the cards look fantastic. What I find very, very interesting is laitostarr777's comment above where he said he had the black plastic shipping package and then the broken box inside with duct tape. Mine arrived securely bubble wrapped. Did the shipment facility ship some of them out without the protective bubble wrap? If they did how did the duct tape get on the box? Was the package opened during transit, bubble wrap removed to inspect contents, and then thrown back in the bag without bubble wrap.

laitostarr777 can you provide a photo of what was inside the black packaging? Did it look like your package was opened and then taped shut?

Here are the best shots that I can take. When i open this bag, the box is already collapse. And to compare with yours....... I can see that mine is COMPLETELY NOT SECURED delivery. I dont have that cellophane wrapping that wraps the box completely. So mine is completely screwed up! Mine was put into the bag, possibly already broken.

It almost looks to me, with the tan tape on the outside of your package, that someone opened it, removed the bubble wrap and cellophane around the box to maybe inspect it, put it back in the bag, and then taped it shut and sent it on its way.

brownsl wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:22 am It almost looks to me, with the tan tape on the outside of your package, that someone opened it, removed the bubble wrap and cellophane around the box to maybe inspect it, put it back in the bag, and then taped it shut and sent it on its way.

If that is the case.... Is it possible that my box will never get any replacement because this is customs fault of opening it.......?
No, that's impossible. Even if it opened by customs, they are really that stupid if they just forcebly open with a hammer rather then simply opening the lid.
From what I inspect, i think that duct tape on the bag is simply trying to secure the item in the bag, which failed...
And also, everything that I got, has no cellophane, even the tarot card box. Everything has no protection at all. If there is any cellophane, it would still be in my rubbish bin.

anyways, this is my attempt on fixing it Glad that i found a glue to fix it, but still...... the duct tape residues totally bothers me

philmyer92 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:38 amThe seller has selected and has an agreement with all these so it's up to them to get to the bottom of it. To the sellers credit they did actually ask how it was packaged to establish if it was packaged well enough. In your case i agree it was the most straightforward thing to contact delta yourself but I think you would have also been well within your rights to ask the seller to do this for you. It would have had the same results of delta paying out, it would have just gone through the seller first.

Again, this isn't true. The seller actually had no ability to file a claim with Delta, and it was not more straightforward for me, it cost me $250 out of pocket to recover about $1200 of insurance, because I had to pay for a veterinarian necropsy, nor was the cost of the insurance itself reimbursed. Additionally, insurance was agreed on and paid for up front, and it cost around $100 all by itself. It took nearly a year to recover funds and I had to be visited by a Delta inspector, who demanded that I produce the dead snakes - which also obligated me to keep dead pets in my damn freezer for months. Payment didn't come until I convinced a lawyer to write a letter for me, despite the fact that the facts seemed pretty straightforward. Choice of a different carrier was more or less nonexistent, how many services do you know that transport live snakes?

The point of all of this is that the agreement is the agreement, and anything else is an assumption that very well may not be true. In my case the arrangement involved essentially three parties (buyer, seller, delivery service), and the seller fulfilled his end of the arrangement, so taking it up with him would have not only been futile, it would have not won me any friends in the trade by trying to hold someone innocent accountable. Doing as you suggest would have been a waste of time, and pissed people off for no good reason. I'll also just mention, having your pets killed and storing their corpses is a lot more stressful than a busted box, and nobody ever gave me a red cent or an apology fruit basket (or brick of cards) for putting up with that. The seller was not richer than me, he was heartbroken that snakes he hatched died, and could not have afforded to give me my money or another snake(s) for free, they were expensive and difficult to breed. Doing that would have just put him out of business and meant no more snakes, period. Not so different than many card designers, actually.

The assumptions you make probably come from dealing with enormously huge companies who can in fact afford such extravagant service; when you order from amazon.com and the package doesn't arrive, it's understood that a $100 loss to the customer is a big problem that breaks trust but of little consequence to amazon to pay back. When a deal is done between more or less equal parties, the rules change. In particular, this (the Titanic deck campaign) all took place on Kickstarter, which is pretty explicitly a risky investment. There's no guarantee you get anything, it's not a store front and the buyer willingly shares risk with the seller. That doesn't put the creator totally off the hook, but it changes expectations.

Finally, local delivery services absolutely can screw you in ways you can do little about because they are drastically more powerful than either buyer or seller. At a past rural address, I had USPS deliveries for eBay purchases that were chucked over a 6 ft (2m) fence onto pavement, dropped at the end of a country driveway, and once actually shoved under the wheel of my car where I'd run over it! My neighbors often received and never bothered to return my mail. There's not a snowball's chance in hell I could have obligated anyone I bought from to resend items or refund money because my local mail carrier was a moron, it's not their problem.

Straight up, what if I sold you a rare deck worth, say, $100, and I did everything in my power to make good delivery - wrapped in bubble wrap, stuffed with packing paper or peanuts, etc, but your local mail mutilated the package and the deck was completely ruined? Will you demand that I refund the money in full, even though this really just means I soak up the loss caused by your mail carrier? Would you feel the same way if you sold me that deck? For my part, shared risk is shared risk, and I would not ask a seller to take in the shorts due to something they truly had no control over.

And again, this doesn't mean there's nothing to complain about here. The boxes are probably not being broken by Asian mail carriers, they are probably shoddily assembled and in reality whoever produced the boxes should be on the hook to make this right, but if they're a relatively large company or located in PRC or something, it would be a simple matter for them to say screw you to all of us, buyer and seller alike.

brownsl wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:10 am Ok, I received my package today and have attached photos below. I am very pleased with everything. Packaging was great, box is in perfect condition, the cards look fantastic.

I'm glad yours arrived in pristine condition, it does look beautiful! This all shrink wrapped with it's labeling just so, absolutely should have had a nice box wrapped around it to cuddle it on it's adventure out into the wild unknowns, and Atlanta.

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 am If that is the case.... Is it possible that my box will never get any replacement because this is customs fault of opening it.......?
No, that's impossible. Even if it opened by customs, they are really that stupid if they just forcebly open with a hammer rather then simply opening the lid.
From what I inspect, i think that duct tape on the bag is simply trying to secure the item in the bag, which failed...
And also, everything that I got, has no cellophane, even the tarot card box. Everything has no protection at all. If there is any cellophane, it would still be in my rubbish bin.

anyways, this is my attempt on fixing it

Glad that i found a glue to fix it, but still...... the duct tape residues totally bothers me

Well done on the gluing! If I do say so, I'm thinking while the duct tape residue really isn't pretty it adds a certain amount of character to the piece. It's a tale to be told now. Maybe make up some embellishments about the boxes travel, how the box almost went down several times, barely survived the ordeal to end up in your hands broken but still mostly a box and able to be one again with a little careful surgery and stitching. I'm sorry that your product arrived broken. It makes me sad that you didn't get the smile some others had.

If it is tape residue then it might be possible to clean it off. If it is damage to the finish of the box then that is probably not fixable.

Outsider wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:33 am Straight up, what if I sold you a rare deck worth, say, $100, and I did everything in my power to make good delivery - wrapped in bubble wrap, stuffed with packing paper or peanuts, etc, but your local mail mutilated the package and the deck was completely ruined? Will you demand that I refund the money in full, even though this really just means I soak up the loss caused by your mail carrier? Would you feel the same way if you sold me that deck? For my part, shared risk is shared risk, and I would not ask a seller to take in the shorts due to something they truly had no control over.

I'll admit i'm learning a lot here, i'm not an expert on consumer law in the US or shipping insurance with companies like USPS so it's quite interesting to hear your difference of opinion and expectations to mine.

Personally if i sold a deck whether it was for $50, 100 or $250 it would be shipped with insurance for that respective amount. If it got lost or arrived with the package mutilated i would submit a claim with the company i usually use, Royal Mail because i'm from the UK. once that claim comes back i would offer the buyer a refund or replacement. From the UK i have the option of sending a single deck to america for £5.30, i would never use that option as the problem is the compensation is capped at £20. So if i sold something for even £30 i would have to send via the next tier of compensation meaning it now costs £10.07 for shipping. Of course the buyer pays the extra shipping not me and it probably means i would sell less decks as a result but it means neither me nor the buyer would have to soak up a loss, the company who made the mistake will. I don't do this necessarily because i think it's fair or the right thing to do but because consumer law in the UK along with ebay and paypal buyer guarantees mean as a seller i have act accordingly should a problem arise. Prior to today i would have had the same expectation from any seller no matter where they are but clearly i would be incorrect to do so. You're right about kickstarter though, they don't enforce accountability in the same way (or at all) which is why i think it's important that we as a community do what we can. I'm always very grateful to everybody who shares their experiences with creators good or bad on here and in kickstarter comments. I'm sure i could rattle off a list of creators names that would be triggering for many members here.

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 am the duct tape residues totally bothers me

Further to what brownsl said, WD-40 would potentially be helpful in getting off residue but there is a chance the tape could have removed some of the varnish of the wood. You might be best getting some recommendations based off the type of wood and varnish used before you try anything though. Good job on the repair work though!

Another thing to try is Goo Gone

philmyer92 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:58 pm

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 am the duct tape residues totally bothers me

Further to what brownsl said, WD-40 would potentially be helpful in getting off residue but there is a chance the tape could have removed some of the varnish of the wood. You might be best getting some recommendations based off the type of wood and varnish used before you try anything though. Good job on the repair work though!

Thanks for the recommendation guys
Although, you should know that I am living in a country that lacks most of the good stuffs, so from this point, I don’t think I can do much now other than sticking the box

rjtomlinson1977 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:47 am Are you from a Asian country? I've been noticing that most if not all of these broken boxes are arriving in Asian counties. One should keep in mind, that I have no power on how the postal services in various countries deliver their mail. I can, however, spend several hundred on special air bags. Did you box not arrive well packaged? If so, let me know and i'll complain to the fulfillment company as I spent a fortune to make sure these were packaged extremely well.

The box wasn't cheaply made. This was a very good product. It arrived poorly because of your postal service. I'm angry that the wrong people are being blamed!!!! I could say a lot more but I'll bite my tongue. I could send you a 100 replacement boxes but they would probably all arrive like this. Not because the boxes are poorly made but because the boxes are poorly delivered.

The tape was probably added by the postal service when they realized they messed up your package.

The misprinted card was my fault. I have no problem taking blame for that. I have no problem people airing their dirty laundry over something I actually did wrong. But it angers me to be accused of making a cheap product. It angers me to hear this racism towards the Chinese. It angers me that not once did you put blame towards the true reason your packaged arrived in bad condition (your postal service).

Since I see no one else has asked and I am curious about this, in no small part due to the above mentioned quote and the further photos that have come to our attention as well as of course Atlanta. As well as having Read the comments on the campaign page to see there are many others who received their boxes damaged or broken. This has been taking place all over the world so the outrage shown in the above post is clearly misplaced. That is of course unless this Asian country's mentioned include Australia, the United States, the UK, etc. I will ask the question that should have been asked months ago.

Mr. Tomlinson were you aware that this would in fact see fulfillment in what appears to be non-compostable plastic mailers?

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:34 pm

philmyer92 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:58 pm

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 am the duct tape residues totally bothers me

Further to what brownsl said, WD-40 would potentially be helpful in getting off residue but there is a chance the tape could have removed some of the varnish of the wood. You might be best getting some recommendations based off the type of wood and varnish used before you try anything though. Good job on the repair work though!

Thanks for the recommendation guys
Although, you should know that I am living in a country that lacks most of the good stuffs, so from this point, I don’t think I can do much now other than sticking the box

Orange oil from the skin of an orange is good for cutting through glues while being gentle on whatever the glue is stuck to. It's not exactly orange season but if you have access to some oranges, just flex the skin a bit to get it a little juicy and gently rub again the residue. It will take some doing but it should remove some of that glue and you can eat the orange. I hope this helps.

brownsl wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:22 am It almost looks to me, with the tan tape on the outside of your package, that someone opened it, removed the bubble wrap and cellophane around the box to maybe inspect it, put it back in the bag, and then taped it shut and sent it on its way.

this for sure. It seems like customs was looking for drugs very thoroughly

With more of this deck being delivered it's starting to be shared among it's many fans. We're see some unboxings and first view videos emerging from the interwebs such as from this excited backer. Below is a link to her unboxing video for Titanic Tarot Cards. The whole video is quite long but I've linked from the time stamp that she's showing what happened after shuffled the deck. I thought it was interesting myself so I'm sharing it here on UC. If you find her entertaining I do hope you'll consider subscribing. I think she did a great first impressions video. Yep the first few second will show the complete packaging for the deck including what looks to be the non-compostable black plastic mailer. I love her initial excitement, fantastic stuff!

https://youtu.be/TgLLEhPpluU?t=1636

Ice_Panda wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:44 pm

brownsl wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:22 am It almost looks to me, with the tan tape on the outside of your package, that someone opened it, removed the bubble wrap and cellophane around the box to maybe inspect it, put it back in the bag, and then taped it shut and sent it on its way.

this for sure. It seems like customs was looking for drugs very thoroughly

More like: irresponsible customs... :/
Only open, and when they see it has nothing illegal, send without fixing what they had done...

Fes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:02 pm With more of this deck being delivered it's starting to be shared among it's many fans. We're see some unboxings and first view videos emerging from the interwebs such as from this excited backer. Below is a link to her unboxing video for Titanic Tarot Cards. The whole video is quite long but I've linked from the time stamp that she's showing what happened after shuffled the deck. I thought it was interesting myself so I'm sharing it here on UC. If you find her entertaining I do hope you'll consider subscribing. I think she did a great first impressions video. Yep the first few second will show the complete packaging for the deck including what looks to be the non-compostable black plastic mailer. I love her initial excitement, fantastic stuff!

https://youtu.be/TgLLEhPpluU?t=1636

Well... at least she also received the stuffs in one piece, with all the bubbles and cellophane
I feel really violated with how I received mine

Jeez guys? What a (mostly) unnecessary sh¡t storm!

Mine arrived exactly like brownsl's in a huge bubble that appears to me to be identical to the wraps used for shipping hard drives.

Those can't be cheap...

Anyway, I am certain that RJ will fix it, he's a straight up guy. The slurs on Chinese made goods are probably / mostly absurd since 90% of everything made even by the best companies "Designed in the US" are made there these days.