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based on the photo, I do prefer the Craft's red foil, but the final Fable's silver/black foil....

They're both 'meh' IMO.

theCapraAegagrus wrote:They're both 'meh' IMO.

You're fired!

Harvonsgard wrote:I unwrapped my Craft edition yesterday... The registration is quite aweful. I know that this is picky, but I can't help it, since once realized it really bugs me. The worst is, that neither the faces nor the back design is centered. The back is offset vertically; top border 2-3 mm, bottom border 5 mm and the faces are offset horizontally; left border is wider than the right border at my deck. Does anyone else realized this on his opened decks?
I know that this is just the Craft version, but I hope that this won't happen at the final edition...

Not to sound rude or coming of ungrateful, since Lotrek does awesome stuff for the card community and is overall a very nice guy and maybe I'm a tad more critical when having a Lotrek deck in hand, but at this price point I expect a bit more than USPC registration quality...

What you describe is a deck that accidentally made its way to the tuck instead of the trash bin. It will be taken care of. Please send me a pm.

Just got my Fable deck today and it is absolutely gorgeous. I am very happy with the look of this one. Way nicer than the test run which for me was so-so.

Lotrek wrote:What you describe is a deck that accidentally made its way to the tuck instead of the trash bin. It will be taken care of. Please send me a pm.

As always, great customer service.

True, but then again he does have a few extra craft decks laying around. lol

Received my decks today. I have to say I’m not 100% and it has nothing to do with the delay.

One of the things about Lotrek is that since he doesn’t use cello on these I’m able to open them up and look at them without hurting potential value. I often buy extras for this purpose since I am a collector and appreciator both but it’s nice in this case to know I am not depreciating the product by opening it.

However upon opening one of the decks I notice a few things. First of all is that the tucks are very hard to open without feeling like I’m going to be tearing it. Not sure how this is even a thing, cards are supposed to go in and out of tucks, so having such a tight fit feels like a bad design issue, one that was pointed out on earlier pressings.

Second, I have numerous cards with issues. Some have visible bends and markings, some have fingerprints on the varnish and most have a “bleed” from the foiled stripe on the back combing through as an impression on the front.

Third there are some registration issues, most notably on the diamonds and in particular the two of diamonds. Not sure if that’s a plate issue or an issue with just this deck.

Fourth, the design of some of the numbers in the indices make them very hard to read. I realize that almost no one will play with a Lotrek deck that costs this much, but usability should still be there.

Overall considering the pricing of the decks, even if I wasn’t already inclined not to purchase again I’d still feel that I wouldn’t be keen going forward. In short, a beautiful deck from the outside and some very nice design elements but overall falls short on execution for me and wouldn’t buy again.



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Just got my decks today too. And I love them. I didn't see any issues with any of my cards. But I do agree with Strag that the tuck is hard to open..

But anyways, thank you!

Strag wrote:Received my decks today. I have to say I’m not 100% and it has nothing to do with the delay.

Of course it doesn't, we've established that would be ridiculous and irrational. I don't doubt they will be tight, but on everything else I'll wait for a more credible source, or for my own deck to show up. Excited! That tuck looks like a leather-bound book in Kurama's photos, very cool.

Also received my decks today. Pleasant surprise as I didn't ask for a tracking number. The tuck cases look amazing and indeed look like a leather bound book. Have not got around to opening the tuck case yet.

Strag wrote:most have a “bleed” from the foiled stripe on the back combing through as an impression on the front.

That is a common thing with hot foil, especially when multiple foils are applied. Hot foil always needs pressure to be applied. It is almost unavoidable. All of my Silk decks have this issue aswell. But I wouldn't call it an issue, since it comes with the process. Did someone else recognized it with his Silk decks? I think the stock of Fable is a notch too thin. A thicker stock helps to chew the pressure so that it won't be noticible at the opposing side. I still prefer hot foil with this issue over cold foil without it. Hot foil looks so much better, imo.
I'm curious if Arabesques and Damasks and Golden Oath don't have this issue?

Strag wrote:First of all is that the tucks are very hard to open without feeling like I’m going to be tearing it. Not sure how this is even a thing, cards are supposed to go in and out of tucks, so having such a tight fit feels like a bad design issue, one that was pointed out on earlier pressings.

I think that has mainly to do with his cards being not exactly standard poker size (63 x 88 mm). All of My Lotrek decks (both Silk, Less, Fable Test and Craft, Icons Sacred) are a notch bigger in width and height. Dunno about the others, but I assume they are a bit bigger aswell.
I wonder aswell why he doesn't cut them to standard poker size. That would solve the problem easily and he wouldn't have to change anything with his tuck box template.

Harvonsgard wrote:I'm curious if Arabesques and Damasks and Golden Oath don't have this issue?

I just so happen to have my cards out at the moment so I was curious to see. I do see the outline of the back coming through to the face on the Silk cards as you have mentioned. In the Damask I see the front come through on the plain parts of the back, and the back come through very faintly also on the plain parts of the faces. On the Arabesque (I almost teared up having to gaze upon such beauty again) the back border does come through to the faces, and the foil dots from the front show on the back as well. For the Golden Oath, most of the back design also shows on the front, but nothing shows up on the back.

Keep in mind, this requires looking very closely at the cards individually, at a very specific angle of light, so nothing but unnecessary nitpicking about a non-issue in my opinion.

Adonael wrote:I just so happen to have my cards out at the moment so I was curious to see. I do see the outline of the back coming through to the face on the Silk cards as you have mentioned. In the Damask I see the front come through on the plain parts of the back, and the back come through very faintly also on the plain parts of the faces. On the Arabesque (I almost teared up having to gaze upon such beauty again) the back border does come through to the faces, and the foil dots from the front show on the back as well. For the Golden Oath, most of the back design also shows on the front, but nothing shows up on the back.

Keep in mind, this requires looking very closely at the cards individually, at a very specific angle of light, so nothing but unnecessary nitpicking about a non-issue in my opinion.

Thank you very much for checking. Exactly what I thought. I'm totally with you that it isn't an issue at all, since it is almost impossible to avoid with hot foil. As mentoined before, the stunning beauty of hot foil is so much worth that little issue, imo.

Lotrek wrote:

theCapraAegagrus wrote:They're both 'meh' IMO.

You're fired!

You won't. No balls!

Adonael wrote:
Keep in mind, this requires looking very closely at the cards individually, at a very specific angle of light, so nothing but unnecessary nitpicking about a non-issue in my opinion.

Actually no, this is very visible to me in standard office lighting. Maybe my eyesight or lighting is better than yours.

Yes, I get that you think I'm nitpicking and should gratefully accept whatever gets shipped to me, but when I pay such a large amount for a deck I am going to look at it more closely and there was nothing subjective in my post with the perhaps exception of the indices design.

-Strag

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Mine came today. Didn't open it yet. Was surprised no #/xxx on bottom, just my 046 number.

Strag wrote:

Adonael wrote:
Keep in mind, this requires looking very closely at the cards individually, at a very specific angle of light, so nothing but unnecessary nitpicking about a non-issue in my opinion.

Actually no, this is very visible to me in standard office lighting. Maybe my eyesight or lighting is better than yours.

Yes, I get that you think I'm nitpicking and should gratefully accept whatever gets shipped to me, but when I pay such a large amount for a deck I am going to look at it more closely and there was nothing subjective in my post with the perhaps exception of the indices design.

-Strag

I think Adonael was referring to the other decks that I've asked about. We both didn't receive our final Fable edition yet, therefore we can't talk about them.
When talking about the Craft edition, I can agree that it is pretty visible. I still don't mind it, since I work in the print industry and as stated before, know how near impossible it is to avoid the pressure marks. Which from my side is not meant in any shape or form negative towards your opinion. It is just my take on the topic.

For the second part I think that he was just stating his opinion on this topic as in, he doesn't mind. I don't think that he meant you don't have the right to state your opinion.

@Strag:

Pressure marks are IMPOSSIBLE to completely avoid, especially when you have more than 1 foils. The smaller is the surface, the more is the pressure. Just physics.
The craft edition was indeed very tight to say the least. But saying that the cards in the official edition are too tight in the box, is pure nonsense. Unless for some reason you were so "lucky" that you got a tuck that wasn't glued correctly resulting on less space. Very rare but I wouldn't swear that is totally impossible.
As for the registration issue in the 2 of diamonds, there is indeed but it didn't even cross my mind to spend a few thousand euros and another month's delay for a tiny little semi-invisible white line in 2-3 pips. Andit's not a printing error, it was just that the paper in the press expanded more than expected. Harvonsgard knows what I mean.

But since you saw it, I'm offering you a position in quality control for OathPCC. It will save me a lot of time to focus on timely delivery!

@lotrek I understand where you are coming from. As I've said before, I think your designs are amazing and beautiful. No question in my mind you have incredible ability. My point was only that given the cost per deck (pretty much highest in the industry) and the inconsistent in delivery it's just not for me. I'll have to appreciate your art from afar. And that's ok.

On the tuck, I'm sorry there I have to disagree. Because the tuck itself isn't so strong and the cards are very tight compared to any other deck I own, every time I go to remove the cards I have to be extremely careful or I do think I would tear the tuck. A stronger tuck or more preferably just a tiny bit more room would have been preferred and I think I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Please do take my critiques the way they are meant, more as constructive feedback for you to take as you will, by no means any personal attack. As I've said, I admire your art quite a lot.

-Strag

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Strag, please feel free to post your honest opinions. There is no doubt that Lotrek's hot foil decks are expensive, and I get your voiced concerns. Keep in mind, how many decks do you have with 3 different hot foils impressed on the same card? I hazard to guess this one is it. That is because the registration requirements alone are mind-blowingly difficult. I am reposting some photos below to show some of the challenges of hot foil stamping.

I have almost all of Lotrek's hot foil stamped cards. From the examples I have, I can say in general that the quality of Lotrek's cards is generally improving over time. That isn't to say there is not the odd issue. The registration on the Fable Craft cards I have checked looked really good to me. The consistent quality of the impressions of Silk was particularly notable.

I have a lot of Arabesque Collector decks, and I have viewed each card carefully. Of the over 600 cards I looked at, I only found three cards that I considered substandard. Here is a magnified view of one of the cards where the horizontal registration of only one of the two foils was off just slightly. It looks bad. But, honestly, it was just slightly off. However, the design really called for perfect registration, which was something he achieved in my collection some 99.5% of the time. I would say that was really good.



By contrast, here is a sample (I could give many) of USPCC's metalLuxe hot foil cards. Note the huge variations in the details between the two cards. I see this in a majority of their cards. The difference in quality between what USPCC can achieve and what Lotrek achieves is frankly amazing to me. I don't think you are going to find any other playing card manufacturer that can consistently achieve a better result in accuracy and consistency with hot foil applications for playing cards than Lotrek.





As for cost, some other decks are getting really close if not more than Lotrek. The London VXD deck with a single hot foil and holographic foil is $54 with shipping for me. My Gilded KWP Subscription decks are $45 each excluding shipping, the Gold Monolith was also quite expensive. Gilding is especially adding a lot of cost to decks. Jackson recently mentioned that gilding adds more cost for him than all other production costs combined. I do understand that each hot foil added to a deck adds considerable cost in both the cost of the materials itself and the extra printing process (including the special plates needed). It isn't just Lotrek. Adding bells and whistles adds a ton of costs. On the other hand, I have Lotrek decks without foil that have cost me $10 each including shipping. That said, I do understand how people would rather go for more standard printed decks with amazing artwork for a fraction of the final cost than those with all these pricey extras. Just understand those extras added are expensive for the creator. It isn't pure profit by a long shot.

Really great post and some other excellent points made. Thanks!

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My mail office dropped of a small package with some Greek stamps on it and two Fable decks inside.

I do see the very small white line on the 2 of diamonds, but not the three of diamonds. If I wasn't directed to this, I would have never noticed it as it was so feint. The registration is honestly amazing as I would expect. The foiling is even a bit better than the craft. In the craft decks I noticed some jagged foil lines and are much fewer in the final version. I really like the silver foiling on the backs as the black foiling on the backs of the craft decks blended into the background. However, the matte brown foiling on the tucks blended in the same way with brown paper of the tuck box, if it even is foil (I can't be sure it is foil. It really just looks like the paper stock to me). That said, the tuck box overall looks great. The cards slide out of the tuck fine, and is much better than some other tucks. The matte brown foiling on the cards is clear against the black paper stock, but harder to tell it is foil rather than ink since it is a matte finish. I preferred the shiny red foil over the matte brown foil on the cards, but that is me being picky. Overall, I really like the final decks and the overall improved quality of the foil in the final version. The handling also feels great. I like how the card handling is also steadily getting better.

@Strag:

I hear you. Actually I am amazed that only a few (less than 5) people complain about my delays. If I were I backer I would be one of those 5 people, honestly. But I am a producer. And you have no idea what kind of problems one may face while printing such complicated stuff at such a high level. It's no wonder that the people that are most amazed by my decks, are people in the printing industry. Their most often comment is: WHAAAAT??? And this is because they know. So, absolutely no hard feelings against you. You don't like delays? Perfect. It's your call. I have nothing to say. I delay. It's true. But my delays are always due to the fact that I'm often trying new things, things that nobody has done before and I'm not rich to self fund them and keep throwing money to the press. Why I do that? Why I chase my tail? No idea. I'm just like this. Maybe too curious. Maybe too ambitious. Maybe too silly. Really no idea. I just find it fascinating and I can't help it. I WANT TO TRY NEW STUFF!! While you were waiting for your decks, I made and paid for five (5) print runs of the deck and 2 of them were completely scrapped. The stock I use alone, is more expensive than a complete Bicycle deck. You backers are aware of about half of the problems I face each time. And this is because if I told you, you wouldn't believe.

Again, absolutely no hard feelings. You just don't know.

But you have quite an eye!!!

Bradius wrote:My mail office dropped of a small package with some Greek stamps on it and two Fable decks inside.

Belgium, England and now the States? Parcels drop everywhere. But what about good Ol'Germany? I can't wait any longer!!!

Harvonsgard wrote:

Bradius wrote:My mail office dropped of a small package with some Greek stamps on it and two Fable decks inside.

Belgium, England and now the States? Parcels drop everywhere. But what about good Ol'Germany? I can't wait any longer!!!

*clears throat while pointing to seat* Anyone sitting here buddy?

Somewhere in the Australian Customs Office:

"Hey Hank, look at these sweet playing cards. Sit down and I'll shuffle them. What kind of poker you want to play?"

Harvonsgard wrote:

Bradius wrote:My mail office dropped of a small package with some Greek stamps on it and two Fable decks inside.

Belgium, England and now the States? Parcels drop everywhere. But what about good Ol'Germany? I can't wait any longer!!!

Mine is probably at the post office, but I am too late for the weekend have to wait for Monday to get it.

Bradius wrote:Somewhere in the Australian Customs Office:

"Hey Hank, look at these sweet playing cards. Sit down and I'll shuffle them. What kind of poker you want to play?"

*Looks around with a squint*



Suddenly remembers that both Ambassadors and Silver Arabesque were "randomly" opened for inspection.


BTW Brad, postal employees are never called Hank here, but Wayne, Mel and Shirley send their regards.

portcullis wrote:

Bradius wrote:Somewhere in the Australian Customs Office:

"Hey Hank, look at these sweet playing cards. Sit down and I'll shuffle them. What kind of poker you want to play?"

*Looks around with a squint*



Suddenly remembers that both Ambassadors and Silver Arabesque were "randomly" opened for inspection.


BTW Brad, postal employees are never called Hank here, but Wayne, Mel and Shirley send their regards.

This just happened to someone on Reddit; one of their Agenda decks was opened, seemingly by customs.