"ARABESQUE" by OathPlayingCards

[flyers3003]

"Practice more with your keyboards next time".

Kudos Lotrek. Great reference in your explanation.

[JacksandJokers]

I can totally see where you're coming from Lotrek and I'm sure it's just as difficult for you trying to please everyone as it is frustrating for us backers.

a presale for a certain period of time where people will be asked to "reserve" their decks

I think this could really work as it's similar to how you have offered your signature decks through Kickstarter and it would certainly be something worth trying next time - The difficulty here would be avoiding those error decks and having to ask people to pay a second "deposit".

I would also be onboard if you went down the club route - The biggest problem I see with this is (a) What if those who join only wanted certain decks or more than 1 of a particular deck. (b) You would also have to be wary of offering any error / Signature / players edition decks etc to members first if they are already paying a membership fee upfront.

[Bradius]

Practice more with your keyboards next time

Oh yeah, I got much better on my checkout skills! Again thanks RichK for your help on that front. Yes sir, I am doing finger workouts now every day. Just in case.

Thanks for offering up some ideas. Of course I would gladly put up a deposit for any new releases or participate in a club or whatever with an annual fee or monthly fee to get a guarantee to get an opportunity to purchase at least one of everything you release. I don't know if others would, but given your latest results, I think you would get considerable interest in either option.

Bradius, I'm warning you: If you miss the next mystery deck you'll regret it!

I will be in for your next mystery deck. *sigh* yeah. Although I am hoping to restrain myself to two decks this next time. Buying bricks of them is just not fair to everybody else. Yeah, it is my concern for everyone else.

Now, time to put my fingers back in a bowl of ice to recover from last night's effort to secure those decks.

[PipChick]

Now, time to put my fingers back in a bowl of ice to recover from last night's effort to secure those decks.

I'm sure after last night, Lotrek now has his own strenuous finger workout...

[badpete69]

"Practice more with your keyboards next time".

Kudos Lotrek. Great reference in your explanation.

Or you could have said...Join the quick trigger Badpete school of deck snatching... Always guaranteed

[badpete69]

Lotrek... Let's talk the club idea... This is in essence what Paul Carpenter did last year with his Patreon page and many here reacted negatively. Plus his first announced limited deck was for a quantity of 30 and he had way more members so there was a chance some members could not get one.. In the end it worked out in that case as a few passed on it but my point is that the club might not solved the issue.
Now obviously you could print to meet demand but us crazy folks might not pay $100 for a deck limited to 1500..Also the limit of 1deck per person would be best in this case but you know that.
In the end maybe you open a presale deposit for like 8 hours and see what type of demand you get. Then you adjust the number of decks based on that. If your deck was limited to 150 but 200 customers want it in the presale then maybe you raise production but make some minor changes... But you might be creating more work for you...so who knows if there is a perfect solution..

[Lotrek]

Obviously the number of decks available cannot be smaller than the number of club members. Actually they should be more but there should be a secure minimum so that members won't have to struggle to get one. Not even set an alarm or find silly excuses to sneak out of the meeting room!

[Cardians]

or find silly excuses to sneak out of the meeting room!

But Lotrek, any excuse to get out of a meeting to grab one of your decks is worth it. Besides, who the hell wants to be in meetings anyways.

[Lotrek]

Besides, who the hell wants to be in meetings anyways.

The CEOs

[bigskybaby]

What's your plan on the error decks of the silver edition?

[MagikFingerz]

What's your plan on the error decks of the silver edition?

Just FYI, the Silver decks were planned and printed from the beginning and of course their first print had the same error cards. All these decks were scrapped as were the money they costed. I only kept some as a proof that they really existed.

[Spectre]

So yesterday seemed to be a pretty stressful day for card collectors. It's pretty easy to pick apart plans after the fact; what should of, could of, and would of been best. I do share some of Bradius's (not sure if that is correct) frustration. I do feel that the backers who took the biggest gamble at the beginning of the campaign could have been afforded a first opportunity to purchase the silver edition. But naturally I would feel this way, being one of those backers. I imagine many others would not feel the same way. I like the idea of limiting numbers to say a maximum of two to four decks, to hopefully leave more opportunity for others. It is very frustrating as a collector who does not sell there decks, not be able to get a deck because they sold out, then see the decks sold on the second hand market for 4-5 times the initial selling price. I have fell victim of that far to many times due to my sickness, I to have to have them all. Hell there was even a person yesterday, who got in on a very limited KS pledge, try to sell the entire contents of that pledge on here. That person has not even payed for it yet and is already trying to make money off of it. In my mind, that person had no business stealing that pledge tier if they were not interested in keeping at least a part of it. No wonder "Michael" was so upset. Just imagine the rant that would have happened here on UC if he was a member and saw that.

Sorry for digressing.

I think if there was anyone who was worthy of having a club, it is Lotrek. There are not to many artist that are at the caliber that I would be willing to pay a monthly fee for the honor of purchasing the decks , but Lotrek, absolutely! Especially if it would mean I would be guaranteed first right of refusal so to speak. (Like I'd ever refuse to buy a deck of cards from Lotrek)

[Oscar53955]

I agree with some of the others here. It is frustrating to miss out on a limited deck that others have snatched up just to make a profit from it. But that’s how it’s been for a long time and it will probably continue to be that way. Don’t know why it’s such a big issue now.

I always get no more than 2 of Lotrek’s decks - or any limited deck for that matter - as I don’t see the reason to get any more than that. Apart from the obvious financial reason I don’t get more than 2 decks, as a collector I really only need 1 for my collection and maybe another one to open and use. Additionally, I like to get only 1 or 2 limited decks to allow for other fellow COLLECTORS to get a chance to get them, as an act of courtesy. I do feel for those true collectors that miss out because someone who doesn’t really appreciate a certain deck for what it is - a beautiful piece of art and playing card history - wants to make a profit from it. It’s wrong, but it’s legal. I wish there was a perfect solution that allows only true collectors to get these beautiful decks.

In the end, that’s just the way it is, and it happens everywhere. People will always find a way to make a profit.

[Mike Ratledge]

That was fun to watch - and interesting.

Clearly there was some speculation by a couple people who bought multiple decks - but it is probably unavoidable except by limiting beyond what Lotrek has already described.

Awesome decks as always!

[Lotrek]

Based on the average number of decks purchased per person, I think that if there was a srtict limit of 1 deck/person, the sale would have lasted 1 -2 minutes more the first day and 1 minute more the second day. Maybe less.

I'm seriously leaning towards the "club" idea. There is a considerable group of people who have been supporting me for quite a long time and I want to have them all happy. So I'll think about it for a while and we'll see where this goes.

To paraphrase Mike's motto:
"You can't please everyone but it's worth trying it"

[Mike Ratledge]

Based on the average number of decks purchased per person, I think that if there was a srtict limit of 1 deck/person, the sale would have lasted 1 -2 minutes more the first day and 1 minute more the second day. Maybe less.

I'm seriously leaning towards the "club" idea. There is a considerable group of people who have been supporting me for quite a long time and I want to have them all happy. So I'll think about it for a while and we'll see where this goes.

To paraphrase Mike's motto:
"You can't please everyone but it's worth trying it"

I have to agree, but the other side of this observation is that it would still sell out in roughly the same amount of time and eliminate the speculation argument, if only people would not figure out how to cheat that plan. The thing is that all you would have to do is get several friends to buy one.

Sure, it is more fair overall because nobody can grab 5 or more decks (3% of total made / production in this case with 150 total available) at one time and resell three of them for two or three times almost immediately / "firdtborn" or hold them for a short while and get even more ("first wife").

People trying to monitor the sale are messing things up with some shopping carts because once you put them in the cart they become unavailable for others, but I am pretty certain that we know KS doesn't work that way because of the occasional oversell happening (you only put five up for sale but KS sees two people in an exact tie and ends up selling six items, which could really screw up the artist if there were only five actually made!!) I don't know if they have fixed this, but we have seen it before several times.

Obviously some carts don't work this way, but only allowing one to be added to the cart eliminates both the fairness / speculation problem and the oversell, too (maybe not on KS?).

At least limited to one per address is trying to be fair to all, and I can see where it might really end up biting a good customer and being a bad situation if the available quantity is small.

People will figure out a way around anything these days, but at least you tried... Re-reading your response, I might be missing the point behind the club idea?

[Lotrek]

The main reason I didn't set a limit per person is the fact that I didn't expect that this would sell like this. Believe it or not. Now I know that some people are willing to pay a lot of $$ to get a deck and some others are willing to pay $$$$ because some others will be willing to pay $$$$$$$$$ on ebay. So, club or not, next time there will be strict limits.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'm sorry (not sorry), but if you buy Lotrek decks just to resell them immediately to turn a profit, you're 100% a d-bag.

Lotrek puts so much heart and soul into his work and he's the only one that truly deserves a good profit out of these little packets of artwork.

This isn't aimed at those who buy some extra and offer to sell/trade within our communities. I think you're trying to keep circulation among collectors.

[badpete69]

I'm sorry (not sorry), but if you buy Lotrek decks just to resell them immediately to turn a profit, you're 100% a d-bag.

Lotrek puts so much heart and soul into his work and he's the only one that truly deserves a good profit out of these little packets of artwork.

This isn't aimed at those who buy some extra and offer to sell/trade within our communities. I think you're trying to keep circulation among collectors.

I am not sure I agree with this statement. It is a free country and you should be allowed to do whatever you want with the decks you buy. If you want to buy them and then burn them it is entirely your choice. It really doesn't bother me that people buy decks and resell them. I personally never have bought multiple decks of Lotrek just to resell, actually I have never sold any Lotrek decks. They are all displayed in my book case.
I have on occasion bought multiple of cardistry decks knowing I would kill on the after market and I have made great money doing that.. It's called FREE enterprise. It might be maddening to some who missed out on some of these decks but it is not the quick buyer's fault. I even sometime help the community with the multiples I buy and sell to them at no profit (I saw you mention that aspect). When I get both my Arabesque, they will go directly in my showcase, but if I decide to sell then next week, then so be it.. That does not make me a Douche

Anyway in the end I know Lotrek will find a way to make as many of his customers happy but we are all free to do with our decks what we want. Ask your buddy Jackson he agrees 100% with this

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'm sorry (not sorry), but if you buy Lotrek decks just to resell them immediately to turn a profit, you're 100% a d-bag.

Lotrek puts so much heart and soul into his work and he's the only one that truly deserves a good profit out of these little packets of artwork.

This isn't aimed at those who buy some extra and offer to sell/trade within our communities. I think you're trying to keep circulation among collectors.

I am not sure I agree with this statement. It is a free country and you should be allowed to do whatever you want with the decks you buy. If you want to buy them and then burn them it is entirely your choice. It really doesn't bother me that people buy decks and resell them. I personally never have bought multiple decks of Lotrek just to resell, actually I have never sold any Lotrek decks. They are all displayed in my book case.
I have on occasion bought multiple of cardistry decks knowing I would kill on the after market and I have made great money doing that.. It's called FREE enterprise. It might be maddening to some who missed out on some of these decks but it is not the quick buyer's fault. I even sometime help the community with the multiples I buy and sell to them at no profit (I saw you mention that aspect). When I get both my Arabesque, they will go directly in my showcase, but if I decide to sell then next week, then so be it.. That does not make me a Douche

Anyway in the end I know Lotrek will find a way to make as many of his customers happy but we are all free to do with our decks what we want. Ask your buddy Jackson he agrees 100% with this

Disagree, if you'd like, but I stand by my statement. If you buy Lotrek decks just to resell them, then IMO you're 100% a d-bag. Lotrek can disagree with me if he likes, and I will still think the same.

[Bikefanatic]

Without Kickstarter, before selling a deck, creators could mention it'll be multiple versions of it and when they'll be released so that people may limit their spending.

1.For instance, Lotrek mentions Arabesque playing cards and it'll be a gold version first, silver and last a players' edition.

2.So since you know it'll be 2 more decks after the first, someone may not go all out on the gold because it's not the only one and it could make room for other people to buy them. A person who bought 5 gold decks could've bought 2 deck instead because they'll wait on the other versions.

3.For someone who could afford only one or two decks, they could've choose to get one of each or decide they'll wait for the silver or players' edition instead of the gold.

I think pre-planning and knowing ahead of time is the key. I know it's still possible for people to go haywire and buy up a lot but keeping the limit to 2 or 3 could work also.

[badpete69]

The beauty of this world is that we are allowed to think whatever we want, or be as close minded as we want. Also the level of care of what others think must be very low for resellers... But back to these beautiful decks.. Can't wait to get them in hand. Did you buy any twopiece?

[Bradius]

Whatever you do Lotrek, I do want it to be something that works for you as well. I don't want you to get into a deal where you get a bunch of stuff you have to scrap your work and eat the cost.

When we order in advance, you then know the volume you need to print for. I don't even want to think how many projects I have outstanding in Kickstarter (I try to maintain a spreadsheet). In fact, my FIRST kickstarter project was a levitating phone charger (cool idea) that has never been delivered. That is $180 I will probably never see (2.5 years past due). Ah well, I have gone on to back 237 other funded kickstarter campaigns.

I hadn't thought about the pressure it puts on you to get the sold projects done, which can lead to errors.

I guess the membership might be a better route for you as that still keeps you in control of the creative process outside our impatient eyes. If so, I really better keep up my finger excersizes for when the membership slots open up! I don't think you would have a problem filling them up. In fact...someone could sell memberships on...eBay....ghaaah!

tapity, tap, tap, tap!

PS: For me badpete69, I am looking forward to my Arabesque decks. It sounds like they will likely come in while I will be off at Scout Camp. I have told my Assistant to lock up any package I get from Greece as it will likely be worth a small fortune.

[theCapraAegagrus]

The beauty of this world is that we are allowed to think whatever we want, or be as close minded as we want. Also the level of care of what others think must be very low for resellers... But back to these beautiful decks.. Can't wait to get them in hand. Did you buy any twopiece?

No, I didn't. I wasn't interested in the no-show sale. After they were revealed, I didn't really think they're worth $85-100. Then he made them more detailed, and I want them, but I can't fit them into the buy/trade budget yet. With the new silver version, I'm not even sure how many variants there will be, and which one is the 'best'. This deck is a clusterf^&* to me right now.

[Bikefanatic]

I think what TwoPiece is saying is that for people who are NOT collectors at all to buy decks and ONLY sell are d-bags because those could've been the decks that collector could've got for the normal price instead of the high resell.

[Bradius]

No problem TwoPieceFeed. We can talk offline. I can set you up. I understand you still have an arm and a leg left.

[sinjin7]

I'm seriously leaning towards the "club" idea.

I hope you don't go down this road. I don't know of any playing card "clubs" that went well. E's club ended in disaster. The USPCC's club dwindled to nothing. I'm not a fan of Paul Carpenter so I didn't join his club but from what I see, and hearing from his club members, it's not going so well. Making a club will just add more headache for you to properly maintain it and only increase people's sense of entitlement for members, and there will always be members who still won't be satisfied.

So, club or not, next time there will be strict limits.

This is the first and most important step, limit it to two decks per buyer. Yeah, yeah, I know people can get friends to be shill for them and get extra decks, but that's still better than letting one person snatch up a dozen decks on his own. This will adequately slow down the speculators by making it more work and harder for them to hog up all the decks.

The second step is to increase the number of decks you make. Even if you double your output, that's still only 300 decks in the market, which is still a very limited and exclusive number. More decks = more people happy owning your art, and as you grow in popularity and demand, I don't think 150 deck print runs will cut it anymore. Plus it would be more money going in your well-deserved pockets.

Increase the number of selling windows, and vary the times. For example, if you produce 300 decks, have 4 sale periods of 75 decks each, and have each of the windows starting at different times to accommodate your world wide fan base, so for example, people in Asia don't always have to get up in the middle of the night to try to get your decks.

Finally, no more flash sales. Announce your releases in advance. Things like flash sales are just cheesy marketing gimmicks designed to increase the hype for a product. You have solidified your position in the card community as one of the very top dogs. Everyone knows you and the quality of your work, and you're always going to instantaneously sell out your decks, even at 300 deck print runs. Marketing gimmicks are beneath you.

Listen, Lotrek, at the end of the day, your problems are good problems. Your decks are in too much demand. Most deck artists have to deal with people complaining about the decks they got. You have people complaining about decks they couldn't get. Most artists on Kickstarter are wringing their hands and crossing their fingers fervently hoping their decks fund. You have the assurance knowing your decks will sell out in a matter of minutes, not weeks. All the comments and concerns in this thread are completely legitimate because your popularity has grown to the point where the number of decks you produce aren't sufficient to satisfy the numbers of your loyal supporters. Again, good problems to have, but still problems and something probably has to be done. Clearly you are doing things the right way, my friend, and I'm sure you'll figure this all out. Good luck.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'm seriously leaning towards the "club" idea.

I hope you don't go down this road. I don't know of any playing card "clubs" that went well. E's club ended in disaster. The USPCC's club dwindled to nothing. I'm not a fan of Paul Carpenter so I didn't join his club but from what I see, and hearing from his club members, it's not going so well. Making a club will just add more headache for you to properly maintain it and only increase people's sense of entitlement for members, and there will always be members who still won't be satisfied.

So, club or not, next time there will be strict limits.

This is the first and most important step, limit it to two decks per buyer. Yeah, yeah, I know people can get friends to be shill for them and get extra decks, but that's still better than letting one person snatch up a dozen decks on his own. This will adequately slow down the speculators by making it more work and harder for them to hog up all the decks.

The second step is to increase the number of decks you make. Even if you double your output, that's still only 300 decks in the market, which is still a very limited and exclusive number. More decks = more people happy owning your art, and as you grow in popularity and demand, I don't think 150 deck print runs will cut it anymore. Plus it would be more money going in your well-deserved pockets.

Increase the number of selling windows, and vary the times. For example, if you produce 300 decks, have 4 sale periods of 75 decks each, and have each of the windows starting at different times to accommodate your world wide fan base, so for example, people in Asia don't always have to get up in the middle of the night to try to get your decks.

Finally, no more flash sales. Announce your releases in advance. Things like flash sales are just cheesy marketing gimmicks designed to increase the hype for a product. You have solidified your position in the card community as one of the very top dogs. Everyone knows you and the quality of your work, and you're always going to instantaneously sell out your decks, even at 300 deck print runs. Marketing gimmicks are beneath you.

Listen, Lotrek, at the end of the day, your problems are good problems. Your decks are in too much demand. Most deck artists have to deal with people complaining about the decks they got. You have people complaining about decks they couldn't get. Most artists on Kickstarter are wringing their hands and crossing their fingers fervently hoping their decks fund. You have the assurance knowing your decks will sell out in a matter of minutes, not weeks. All the comments and concerns in this thread are completely legitimate because your popularity has grown to the point where the number of decks you produce aren't sufficient to satisfy the numbers of your loyal supporters. Again, good problems to have, but still problems and something probably has to be done. Clearly you are doing things the right way, my friend, and I'm sure you'll figure this all out. Good luck.

I agree with everything posted here. Very well-said.

[Mike Ratledge]

Both points are valid, which is why when the number is so low/limited it needs to be controlled.

There's nothing wrong with making a few bucks off the open market - unless it means that people who have supported you forever get cut out of owning even one.

[JuFiN]

Would be nice to have had the option to get both the silver and gold versions together to avoid the collector nightmare of getting a gold but then being to slow and missing out on the silver! Should release all highly limited versions at once so if someone wants all the versions they don’t have to set multiple alarms and have multiple frantic stressful buying experiences.