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Hand gilded 23.75k gold decks are easily worth $75-100, and that's what the market will allow decks "gilded" with cupro-aluminum (aluminium?) foil sell for $20-$25. Steve needs to tell us what we're getting before I would be comfortable parting with $175 for a pair of decks that JP's can deliver to the US for $50. Same quantity made, by the way - although Paul can make more, if he wishes.

However, if people want to pay that for foil heat flashed onto the deck edges, "it's their money"... That process takes 1/10th of a second, plus cleanup. Hand gilding takes hours, plus a month to cure before it's even shippable.

Mike Ratledge wrote:Hand gilded 23.75k gold decks are easily worth $75-100, and that's what the market will allow decks "gilded" with cupro-aluminum (aluminium?) foil sell for $20-$25. Steve needs to tell us what we're getting before I would be comfortable parting with $175 for a pair of decks that JP's can deliver to the US for $50. Same quantity made, by the way - although Paul can make more, if he wishes.

However, if people want to pay that for foil heat flashed onto the deck edges, "it's their money"... That process takes 1/10th of a second, plus cleanup. Hand gilding takes hours, plus a month to cure before it's even shippable.

I agree, it would be nice to know the foiling process, but I am doubting we are looking at a hand gild on these. Part of that price is also the gold slip case each deck comes in. While we aren't looking at the craftmenship of JR Legacy boxes, which are also hand made I believe, it is still a premium feature that is going to increase the price pretty considerably. Plus I imagine he inflated the price based on limited availability.

rousselle wrote:I'm not sure I understand what is so sad about it. If you like a piece of art and are okay with the price, you buy it. If you don't or aren't, you don't. I love Steve's work, and while I will be sitting the signature edition out, I hope he is able to sell them all. He's good at what he does, and I'd like to see him continue to do it. But artists, like the rest of us, do occasionally have to pay their rent/mortgage and grocery bills. What's so bad about them getting paid for their work, if the market will support it?

The $90,000 he received in funding helps out quite a bit I'm sure.

I wasn't whining anymore than anyone else, clearly I'm not the only one who feels they are too pricey. It's gilding and a different tuck with a wooden case. Or instead you can take the money and support 1 or 2 or even 3 other creators.

If the limited decks were half the price and without the wooden slip cases (just gilded with special tucks for $50), I would be in. But as it is, I'm gonna have to pass on these.

Justin O. wrote:I am definitely going to pick a pair up, I think they look great and to me are worth the price. And I definitely don't expect everyone to share that perspective, but I wouldn't call them cheap.



Sent from my iPhone

Sent from my iPhone

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Subtle

MagikFingerz wrote: Subtle

... I don't even know what you're talking about...

@Kickstarter

Still doesn't address whether it'll hand or machine-gilded...

Signature decks live

only 21 sets left after 5 minutes...

Only seems to be the sets going at the moment, the singles are going very slowly

Most who are willing to dish out the money want the sets... There are only 10 sets left.. The singles should move fast after that. But with campaign like these you always have a bunch that change their minds and cancel their pledge so people that miss out tonight will have to monitor this week if they want a set

Yeah I went with the set. I am going to need to some further clarification on the gilding before getting to the point of handing over the cash though. This has still been kept fairly ambiguous for me, despite others' attempts at clarifying with the creator...

29 minutes.. all sets are gone

Crazy, still 10 set* at $200

Quick backing of $18250 , i wonder how much he earned from that

Someone dropped their pledge.
Currently 1 set available.

After reviewing my budget, and after the amount I put into his last project, I don't think I can justify this one, which bums me out because it is a slick LE set.. and one pair still available... wah wah

hawk199 wrote:Crazy, still 10 set* at $200

Quick backing of $18250 , i wonder how much he earned from that

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is an obvious money grab. He funded $92,000+ and needs another $18,000. I wouldn't hold my breath for delivery of the limited edition version.

Max cost is $40 unless he's doing something wrong. 250% markup? Not bad... It's likely more like 300% but admitted that he could be getting screwed for gilding (see cost of Paul's gilded Luxx decks for a reference orice) or the box. I could get them laser cut including assembly costs for $20 doing 200 units. It does not appear to be exotic wood...

Mike Ratledge wrote: Sorry to be so blunt, but this is an obvious money grab. He funded $92,000+ and needs another $18,000. I wouldn't hold my breath for delivery of the limited edition version.....

More or less, he is also basically selling them on Kickstarter ($100 goal)

And I don't think he is getting screwed with gilded deck, so the mark is around there which is easy 10k (after the original Kickstarter), which is smart of him

Didn't know they could laser cut wood


So.......now in the future when he makes and KS another deck he is definitely gonna do something similar

I had an inkling he has probably undercut his postage allowance on the standard editions, and is using the LE as a means of recouping that

I think people just like to overreact. Mike my good friend you make it sound like he is taking advantage of people. Most of us that are pledging for that set (yes i did pledge for a set) know exactly how much it cost to produce a deck of card, or know some of the details of what it takes to gild a deck. First I like the detail on the new tucks; I love that intricate wood box that the deck will come in, I love the fact that only 100 decks will be in existence. I really don't care if it cost him $25 to produce or $125. I am a willing participant and pledger and do not mind spending $175 for the set, just like I did not mind pledging $120 for a deck put in a box that was purchased from a third party with no intricacies and with a seal slapped on it. ( This is not a put down big J, I love your limited boxes)

As far as I know every card producer/creator is in business to make money. Are the deck expensives? heck yeah they are but the fact that it took 29 minutes to sell 70 sets shows that there is a market for this kind of thing. We are always quick to call someone greedy and cash grabbers. It almost feels sometimes that the one that are complaining are the ones that would buy it in a heartbeat if they had the money but because they don't they have to bitch

Anyway enough said. Let's move on to the next gripe hehehe

badpete69 wrote:I think people just like to overreact. Mike my good friend you make it sound like he is taking advantage of people. Most of us that are pledging for that set (yes i did pledge for a set) know exactly how much it cost to produce a deck of card, or know some of the details of what it takes to gild a deck. First I like the detail on the new tucks; I love that intricate wood box that the deck will come in, I love the fact that only 100 decks will be in existence. I really don't care if it cost him $25 to produce or $125. I am a willing participant and pledger and do not mind spending $175 for the set, just like I did not mind pledging $120 for a deck put in a box that was purchased from a third party with no intricacies and with a seal slapped on it. ( This is not a put down big J, I love your limited boxes)

As far as I know every card producer/creator is in business to make money. Are the deck expensives? heck yeah they are but the fact that it took 29 minutes to sell 70 sets shows that there is a market for this kind of thing. We are always quick to call someone greedy and cash grabbers. It almost feels sometimes that the one that are complaining are the ones that would buy it in a heartbeat if they had the money but because they don't they have to bitch

Anyway enough said. Let's move on to the next gripe hehehe

Well said my friend. In the end people will only buy what they see value in. I don't begrudge anyone a living, whether I buy it or not. And yes, I did get a set. I was late to the party and luckily I was home all day with the flu wearing out my F5 key. (Special thanks to whomever dropped their pledge)

Just curious on how much is there to profit off, it is business and he is running it well.

I am only scared of furture KS where the others might follow his example, release x y z for KS then later "sell" their LE / extra stuff on KS
Jarek (Disturb Reality) did this but even worst he was selling leave over on KS - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ja ... -leftovers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit: To me KS is where you have an idea but no 'real' funding to back your idea

@necro - yup " people will only buy what they see value in" it is ART after all, where literaly a blank "fking" canvas can sell for tens of thousand of dollar , still boogles me to this day....

Umm.. I didn't say that I didn't buy any, I just said it's a money grab or something is funky. He doesn't need to make more money unless he screwed up the first campaign.

Mike Ratledge wrote:He doesn't need to make more money...

Said no one ever?? I personally say, "good for him!" If he can get people to pay that price for this (which he obviously did) then he's sure as hell doing something I could never do and i commend him for that. Of course it's a money-grab and a high markup but why not? Now if this set is the only set he released I would say shame on him for not letting us common folk on a budget be able to enjoy his design but the "regular" campaign was just fine. I guess my views on this are in a minority but I thought I'd express them anyway.

I can see peoples concern though that projects like this could create artificial inflation. Other creators will see this and think they can charge more/their project is worth more and because buyers see decks sell for these prices will assume the value is inherent and be willing to pay more, but it seems like a cycle that hurts the market, and really shits on people that want to be serious collectors but don't have a lot of spending money.

Justin O. wrote: and really shits on people that want to be serious collectors but don't have a lot of spending money.

Justin... You can't be a serious collector and not expect to spend a lot of money. Looks to me you are just a collector and there is nothing wrong with that. But then again we could go down the bunny trail and try to define the word serious but...


Again you assume it shits on people I totally disagree. To me he is adding to my "serious" collection. And like someone said earlier, it's not like that was his campaign. he had an amazing campaign getting very close to six figures by offering affordable decks to all and a bunch of amazing add-ons. His last add-on the signature deck would have been a nightmare to handle by the add-on method so he made a separate short campaign for HIGH end collectors only. This was not for whiny people that feel entitled to have everything but not pay for it . This last statement is not directed to you Justin but just what I am seeing on the KS campaign and on the forums

If this starts a trend for other amazing creators to do the same, meaning provide expensive add-ons to their campaigns then HOORAH.

PS Remember that $500 pledge level for the Arcana decks for palladium hand gilded decks by Chris. That was an insane amount for 15 decks of cards but again I was glad to pay for it for my serious collection

badpete69 wrote:\Justin... You can't be a serious collector and not expect to spend a lot of money. Looks to me you are just a collector and there is nothing wrong with that. But then again we could go down the bunny trail and try to define the word serious but...
Again you assume it shits on people I totally disagree. To me he is adding to my "serious" collection. And like someone said earlier, it's not like that was his campaign. he had an amazing campaign getting very close to six figures by offering affordable decks to all and a bunch of amazing add-ons. His last add-on the signature deck would have been a nightmare to handle by the add-on method so he made a separate short campaign for HIGH end collectors only. This was not for whiny people that feel entitled to have everything but not pay for it . This last statement is not directed to you Justin but just what I am seeing on the KS campaign and on the forums
If this starts a trend for other amazing creators to do the same, meaning provide expensive add-ons to their campaigns then HOORAH.
PS Remember that $500 pledge level for the Arcana decks for palladium hand gilded decks by Chris. That was an insane amount for 15 decks of cards but again I was glad to pay for it for my serious collection

Don't get me wrong, I put the money in for the Palladium Arcana, I just dropped $500 on the Bund18 box set, I whet my teeth when I started collecting on an eBay resell of the Unbranded Black Reserve Note. Hell my name is on the bottom of the Yes/No Gaff Card on the Oracle decks. I'm serious enough.
And I don't assume anyone is getting shit on, and to be honest I think Minty's asking price for these was steep, but not radically unfair. I am saying that this kind of price inflation is damaging to a market on a long term scale. I do think that premium LE decks should be expensive, but I think there needs to be a reasonable balance based on what the deck actually offers. What I am worried about is other creators thinking they can start charging more and offering less. Exactly how I feel when I see a makeplayingcards.com deck going for $15 a deck.

Justin O. wrote:What I am worried about is other creators thinking they can start charging more and offering less. Exactly how I feel when I see a makeplayingcards.com deck going for $15 a deck.

There is a simple solution. Don't buy it.

Thats it.

If not enough people buy, they stop. If there are enough people out there who will buy everything without concern, the only defense is to not join them.

(Unfortunately, there seems no limit to how much some will pay for minimal changes or extremely limited editions. If you are a collector who wants everything - like many of us were - the growth in your collecting skills is simply to be selective. It is difficult - to fight the urge to by one (or two) of everything with every nicely designed KS project that pops up - but worth it in mental, as well as fiscal, strength)

I think that we have beaten thus horse enough. People bought those decks for $87.50-$100. It does set a dangerous precedent when I can go buy a brick of Luxx gilded decks for about the same price.

Paul, maybe you should start charging double? (triple?) I know that they aren't in a fancy læsser cut wooden box, first thing someone will point out, I am sure. I can make those for $20, maybe $10 if I did 500. The wood, a buck or three, læsser cutting, another $2. Assembly, another dollar's worth of gluing.

We are setting an awful precedence...