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Widdee wrote:I understand you point, Wilko, mass production versus limited production. However, playing the devil's advocate here, all decks have to go through the press regardless of the print run. If you're going to print high numbers you enhance the appeal to buyers of putting out a quality design, not just a color changed re-dicked redesign of the same old crap. Basically, if you can sell a bunch of a boring design you should be able to sell a size able peepot of a really good one.

But why spend 3-6 months agonizing through a beautiful and custom design when you can sell just as many that only took you a week?

It's a dangerous road though, what they are doing, because even the hardest core fans are going to tire of quick and numerous designs eventually and then all your market power will crash down. It really does seem like a "long term be damned let's grab it while we can" kind of attitude.

Encarded wrote:But why spend 3-6 months agonizing through a beautiful and custom design when you can sell just as many that only took you a week?

It's a dangerous road though, what they are doing, because even the hardest core fans are going to tire of quick and numerous designs eventually and then all your market power will crash down. It really does seem like a "long term be damned let's grab it while we can" kind of attitude.

That's what has me miffed, Paul. It wasn't long ago pre-KS at all these companies were competing with each other on a creative playing field, and were putting out very nice decks. These have become fewer and farther between and they seem to be baking bread. What would you throw that away when you have resources tenfold that of a KS designer?

Encarded wrote:It's a dangerous road though, what they are doing, because even the hardest core fans are going to tire of quick and numerous designs eventually and then all your market power will crash down. It really does seem like a "long term be damned let's grab it while we can" kind of attitude.

I definitely believe there's still both creativity and a will to produce top-level designs within E, though I agree that this many different DM decks with all these color variations isn't pushing any boundaries whatsoever. Question is if they can be great enough to compete with the influx of freelance designers in the game (or if they're willing to go to the outside and find new designers). With guys like Jackson Robinson carving out their own territory in this industry I'd make sure I was on top of my game if I was with one of the companies. Not because Kickstarter will steal all of the customers (not going to happen), but because the new guys are setting new standards. Standards you need to one-up at least now and then or you're falling behind and when customers see that, that's when you start to lose market shares.

What t11 did successfully was looking to freelance designers that weren't already in the card business. That resulted in the Artisans, the Rebells and the Medallions which are their top three decks in my book. E needs to do this (and I believe they've started that already).

Widdee wrote: That's what has me miffed, Paul. It wasn't long ago pre-KS at all these companies were competing with each other on a creative playing field, and were putting out very nice decks. These have become fewer and farther between and they seem to be baking bread. What would you throw that away when you have resources tenfold that of a KS designer?

No the same guys anymore though. D&D have lost Si Smith by the looks of it, E has lost its main designers and art director for the "game changers" that I'd say the Arcane etc were. They both need to find their bearings again.

(Now, naturally, if you asked the companies this they'd say they're just fine and dandy and have never been as creative as they are right now.)

This E deck wasn't impressive. It's nice. I like it better than the last few decks whose back designs weren't my cup of tea, but it's nothing that I'll remember. I liked the Pressers deck from the pictures but I haven't had a chance to look at it up close yet.

If E's main business was selling decks to the assorted deck collector world, then I believe their line-up of produced decks would be more to the liking of those who want decks breaking new ground on a regular basis. But E and D&D are magic companies first and foremost and the avant-garde styles just don't fit very well in the hands of magicians. The decks cannot be used with the plethora of gaffs already available for magicians and any "strange" deck may be viewed as a "trick deck" when in fact it is not. Plus, I think many of the stylistic decks hinder quick recognition of a card's suit & value which are of major importance to a magician. The variety of index changes or other layout varieties can render some sleights and particular displays as useless. I actually find much of E's line to be rather hard to fit into a magician's repertoire as it is. I'm probably more of a traditionalist due my age whereas the teen and twenties group probably don't mind so much some of the restrictions that new decks can impose. Such is the difference in perspective we can have.

I was doing a familiar plot (oil and water) at my magic club's meeting one night with a Shadow Masters deck. Generally, you mix and magically separate red and black cards. Even though the deck I was using had red and white pips, I kept saying red and black due to my decades of working that way. It was an eye-opener.

DelMagic wrote:If E's main business was selling decks to the assorted deck collector world, then I believe their line-up of produced decks would be more to the liking of those who want decks breaking new ground on a regular basis. But E and D&D are magic companies first and foremost and the avant-garde styles just don't fit very well in the hands of magicians. The decks cannot be used with the plethora of gaffs already available for magicians and any "strange" deck may be viewed as a "trick deck" when in fact it is not. Plus, I think many of the stylistic decks hinder quick recognition of a card's suit & value which are of major importance to a magician. The variety of index changes or other layout varieties can render some sleights and particular displays as useless. I actually find much of E's line to be rather hard to fit into a magician's repertoire as it is. I'm probably more of a traditionalist due my age whereas the teen and twenties group probably don't mind so much some of the restrictions that new decks can impose. Such is the difference in perspective we can have.

I was doing a familiar plot (oil and water) at my magic club's meeting one night with a Shadow Masters deck. Generally, you mix and magically separate red and black cards. Even though the deck I was using had red and white pips, I kept saying red and black due to my decades of working that way. It was an eye-opener.

E brought out a deck with completely custom-designed faces when the regular USPCC faces was pretty much the only thing on the market, the first black deck, and "strange" decks such as the 1800's, the Arcanes and the list goes on. I can't speak for them or their mindset nowadays, but I can say that any such worries didn't exist a few years ago and I'd be very surprised if they do now. The only thing that mattered back then was two major questions - "Is it a great enough design?" and "Does it fit our style?". Design ideas with great potential wouldn't always mesh well with the brand.

This should seriously be the next Madison deck, lol.

DelMagic wrote:If E's main business was selling decks to the assorted deck collector world, then I believe their line-up of produced decks would be more to the liking of those who want decks breaking new ground on a regular basis. But E and D&D are magic companies first and foremost and the avant-garde styles just don't fit very well in the hands of magicians. The decks cannot be used with the plethora of gaffs already available for magicians and any "strange" deck may be viewed as a "trick deck" when in fact it is not. Plus, I think many of the stylistic decks hinder quick recognition of a card's suit & value which are of major importance to a magician. The variety of index changes or other layout varieties can render some sleights and particular displays as useless. I actually find much of E's line to be rather hard to fit into a magician's repertoire as it is. I'm probably more of a traditionalist due my age whereas the teen and twenties group probably don't mind so much some of the restrictions that new decks can impose. Such is the difference in perspective we can have.

I was doing a familiar plot (oil and water) at my magic club's meeting one night with a Shadow Masters deck. Generally, you mix and magically separate red and black cards. Even though the deck I was using had red and white pips, I kept saying red and black due to my decades of working that way. It was an eye-opener.

Sorry for the double post but I have to beg to differ on a few points.

First of all if Ellusionist, Theory11, & D$D want to be magic companies then maybe they should focus more on magic instead of producing 12 decks a year, especially in E's case.

Also last I checked it does say Ellusionist Card Company on their cards and they do routinely cater to collectors with their "limited" "rare" decks. So to say they are magic companies first and foremost and that they are aren't trying to sell to the collector world isn't exactly true, especially when it seems they release more decks than do anything else, or so it seems, especially when it comes to Ellusionist.

vjose32 wrote:This should seriously be the next Madison deck, lol.

love it Vjose!

Posted it on Madison's Facebook and his response was "Very funny, this one will make you laugh..." lol

I also know somebody posted a comment on the Hustlers pic previously, calling it ugly and he "liked" the comment but the picture ended up deleted, something tells me he's getting tired of all the decks too.

Pass on the Repeaters - one-way back.

hikeeba wrote:Pass on the Repeaters - one-way back.

Easily fixed; just flip 180degrees the two middle M's on the right.

vjose32 wrote: Sorry for the double post but I have to beg to differ on a few points.

First of all if Ellusionist, Theory11, & D$D want to be magic companies then maybe they should focus more on magic instead of producing 12 decks a year, especially in E's case.

Also last I checked it does say Ellusionist Card Company on their cards and they do routinely cater to collectors with their "limited" "rare" decks. So to say they are magic companies first and foremost and that they are aren't trying to sell to the collector world isn't exactly true, especially when it seems they release more decks than do anything else, or so it seems, especially when it comes to Ellusionist.

I would be surprised if everyone agreed with me. No prob. I checked E's site and they have 17 pages of tricks/dvds + downloads + accessories. E has 3 pages of cards. Decks are certainly important but perhaps we tend to focus on the decks the most here and just don't really pay much attention to their other items.

rousselle wrote:

hikeeba wrote:Pass on the Repeaters - one-way back.

Easily fixed; just flip 180degrees the two middle M's on the right.

They'd probably do that for the next color change.

too many of DM's decks in this year....

Seems they will actually be selling both colors this time with the Orange being a "limited" edition. They go on sale tomorrow.

yeah, but what is their definition of "limited"?

I already see (by my cart) promotion for Black Club Memebers - "2 free Orange decks for every 12 Purple Decks purchased"...

Orange for $15.99 !! Rather high for not so pretty deck...

Ellusionist's definition of limited is about 2500-5000 decks, still technically limited.

vjose32 wrote:Ellusionist's definition of limited is about 2500-5000 decks, still technically limited.

Something bothers me when I hear "only 2,500 decks will be printed." That's like being a little bit pregnant.

BLACKWHITE wrote:I already see (by my cart) promotion for Black Club Memebers - "2 free Orange decks for every 12 Purple Decks purchased"...

Orange for $15.99 !! Rather high for not so pretty deck...

So i guess for regular customers only 1 for free of those orange decks per Brick.
The move to sell the "companion" deck isn´t a bad idea. For the die hard collectors who need to have every Ellusionist deck
it´s actually a less expensive way to get the "limited" deck then to buy 12 decks when you only need 1 or 2.

If we do the math quickly - and i assume the regular decks go for $5.95 when bought it bricks - the the orange companion deck is about 2.7x the price then the regular deck.
I hope you can see why E steps into the cold water with this and tries this sales tactics

As someone new to the game, these look nice LOL

BLACKWHITE wrote:I already see (by my cart) promotion for Black Club Memebers - "2 free Orange decks for every 12 Purple Decks purchased"...

Orange for $15.99 !! Rather high for not so pretty deck...

Yes it's a wee bit pricey, but it's a lot cheaper than buying a brick of cards you don't need to get the freebies, and it's certainly cheaper than getting them from resellers. Based on that, I would say it's not that expensive.

I even suggested this idea before, collectors like myself, don't want or need a brick of cards for the most part and I think most don't mind paying a bit more for the so called "limited" deck instead of paying for an entire brick or two.

please buy them, so Madison can get the cash for another tattoo XD

I for one didn't like the colors at first, but.....

initial thoughts.... now I am kinda getting won over. First of all, my wife LOVES the color and design, but she's a graphic designer - sadly now she wants these cards for herself, so I have to hide em. (she's obsessed with finding which Font they're using - Sloop Script One?)

1 way back design side to side and top to bottom - which makes for a pretty side design - short ends look like a casino deck, long ends look like a normal deck (in the stack)

Side borders help hide reversed cards
Smooth handling
Did I mention no tuck seal on the box?
Double backer
Joker card reveal

I think of all D+M cards, these are up there with my favorites.

Just spotted this on the Hustler page...

Purple and Limited-Edition Orange will be the last two decks ever created in the Madison Logo Series.

So I assume this means more Madison decks, but without the logo... A good move I think.

My deck hasn't arrived yet but I think Daniel actually did a quite interesting job on this deck, Purple in my opinion is pretty awesome and it'll definitely catch attention no matter what you use them for, can't be bothered spending all that money on the orange ones, not my type of colour and with the shipping from US to AUS it's not worth it.
Yeah sure the kinda spammed the Madison Decks this year, but maybe they were just excited to get them out and let Madison focus on some other stuff.
Still not the biggest fan of one way decks since I haven't really gotten into the techniques Daniel uses them for quite yet, and the fact that some cuts mess up the position of packets of the deck, but I still really love the designs Daniel's been bringing out.
I guess it's going to be all over the place for a while with everyone's opinions. -shrugs-
It's an interesting concept and a lot of people are excited for this release (like me), and will enjoy showing these off. I understand what you all are getting at though, maybe E does milk it a bit too much sometimes, but lots of companies tend to piss fans and consumers off in one way or another no matter what happens.

Keep on Keeping on people.