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Strag wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:59 am Except in this case it's not "belief" it's that the person themselves has said they are barely scraping by.

That's quite literally belief or the good ol'trustmebro unless you saw verified numbers, lel.

There are probably 2 producers who ACTUALLY make a sustainable living from producing playing cards.

1) Lorenzo. Who does multiple projects a year. Has a great loyal fan base. And is a 1 man operation (no designer costs etc.)
2) Jackson. Also does MANY releases a year. Has a loyal following. Is not a 1 man operation (in that he does his own fulfillment and has employees) but owns his fulfillment company and does not pay designers because he designs himself.

Of the rest of us (Gio is probably the closest--but to date I know he still has another job) followed by Jody and myself. Everyone else is probably barely breaking even (Meadowlark, Jocu have told me so themselves in livestream you can go watch--and I believe them because I've seen the funding they've raised and understand the work and costs involved.

No one is getting rich producing playing cards. It's a rewarding secondary revenue stream for just about all who manage to be successful at it--the few there is. Only companies like Theory 11 and Card mafia can really produce the numbers to garner a serious revenue stream--and those are companies with employees and overhead.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:27 pm There are probably 2 producers who ACTUALLY make a sustainable living from producing playing cards.

1) Lorenzo. Who does multiple projects a year. Has a great loyal fan base. And is a 1 man operation (no designer costs etc.)
2) Jackson. Also does MANY releases a year. Has a loyal following. Is not a 1 man operation (in that he does his own fulfillment and has employees) but owns his fulfillment company and does not pay designers because he designs himself.

Of the rest of us (Gio is probably the closest--but to date I know he still has another job) followed by Jody and myself. Everyone else is probably barely breaking even (Meadowlark, Jocu have told me so themselves in livestream you can go watch--and I believe them because I've seen the funding they've raised and understand the work and costs involved.

No one is getting rich producing playing cards.

What about Lotrek?

brownsl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:29 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:27 pm There are probably 2 producers who ACTUALLY make a sustainable living from producing playing cards.

1) Lorenzo. Who does multiple projects a year. Has a great loyal fan base. And is a 1 man operation (no designer costs etc.)
2) Jackson. Also does MANY releases a year. Has a loyal following. Is not a 1 man operation (in that he does his own fulfillment and has employees) but owns his fulfillment company and does not pay designers because he designs himself.

Of the rest of us (Gio is probably the closest--but to date I know he still has another job) followed by Jody and myself. Everyone else is probably barely breaking even (Meadowlark, Jocu have told me so themselves in livestream you can go watch--and I believe them because I've seen the funding they've raised and understand the work and costs involved.

No one is getting rich producing playing cards.

What about Lotrek?

Lotrek makes a decent amount I'm sure from his patreon and his releases. But his releases are very limited numbers and he is often late which reduces the revenue per relative time spent. But he's probably in the close list as well. I think he does other jobs tho.

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:20 pm

Strag wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:59 am Except in this case it's not "belief" it's that the person themselves has said they are barely scraping by.

That's quite literally belief or the good ol'trustmebro unless you saw verified numbers, lel.

Yeah I get that you have no faith in what people say. But people like TGW and MANY others have given detailed numbers that I do believe, plus I have my own brain and I happen to know what things cost and I also know how much people who have never done this sort of thing have zero clue. So yeah, I'd rather beleive my own eyes and knowledge and what was shared by trusted individuals aside from that troll or you. "lel"

Strag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:19 pm

Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:20 pm

Strag wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:59 am Except in this case it's not "belief" it's that the person themselves has said they are barely scraping by.

That's quite literally belief or the good ol'trustmebro unless you saw verified numbers, lel.

Yeah I get that you have no faith in what people say. But people like TGW and MANY others have given detailed numbers that I do believe, plus I have my own brain and I happen to know what things cost and I also know how much people who have never done this sort of thing have zero clue. So yeah, I'd rather beleive my own eyes and knowledge and what was shared by trusted individuals aside from that troll or you. "lel"

Lel

Me over here waiting for a discussion about the Gentleman thief cards to begin

(Some good points being made. Just trying to lighten the mood )

I think the individuals who are making a living off playing cards are Gio(?), Jackson, Lorenzo, and Lotrek. Not sure about Nicolai Aaroe / Marianne Larsen.

I opted not to back this project as I have a hard time differentiating Gio artworks from each other, but I liked reading about the lore. As per usual, my favorite parts were the joker cards. I had previously jumped in to pledge for the trio as well as the Lucky 3 add-on, which seemed like a good deal. I just wasn't enthusiastic enough to justify the pledge.

Strag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:19 pm Yeah I get that you have no faith in what people say.

I have faith in the words of fellows but I know as well that some people a) lie, b) bend the truth or c) deliberately exaggerate to get a certain picture out - especially when selling a product. Nothing wrong with making money from what you like but sometimes, some producers, seem to wanna sell us the starving artist image, which, I can 100% understand. It just seems odd when collectors who - how do you call it - have never done this sort of thing (and) have zero clue, jump to paint that picture, too.

If we are only talking sustainable living, I wonder whether Daniel Schneider should be included - he seems to have a part in enough projects, other than just his own. I think Randy Butterfield turns a profit from not only his talent but his hard work (attending fairs etc) but I am almost certain that it isn't his main job
Having listened/watched Omar quite a bit I think you can tell there have been times when he is hurting (and questioning whether his involvement is sustainable) so unless he is ten times the actor I believe him to be, I think most would concede that VERY few can be making good coin - it is more a passion and a dream

From what I understand, TGW is right. There are really two that are making some money at this. Gio is still working another job as said, although he is considering moving full-time to playing cards. It wasn't that long ago when Lorenzo went full-time in playing cards. However, there are some groups like T11 that make some money at this and maybe some others like that which are cranking out some big volumes. Other than that, it is at best a side job. Mostly, I think it is a passion deal. As a collector though, I really appreciate their efforts.

Since we are talking about the Gentleman Thief, I am in for a double set. The price is reasonable. Once I get all of my Q1 and Q2 TWI Patreon decks, I will post them. I still have one set to go.

I have no problem being transparent about Playing Cards sales. First off, I’ll probably never be without a day job before I retire. My day job is a very fulfilling, I get to work with global wine and spirits brands every day, and my salary is extremely high for the field of Graphic Design. I would be nuts to give that up!

I originally started doing shows to deal with the problem I’m sure a good deal of Playing Cards designers have - leftover Decks. I hate going with the 1,000 minimum printing cost. I try to print at the 2,000 or higher price cut with every design I can. The downside to that is most Kickstarter projects don’t have enough Backers to sell 2,000 of each Deck. I realized pretty quickly that the shows are a great way to sell the leftovers. Over the years, I started adapting my designs to cater to people that attend these shows, most specifically the Euchre Decks (huge in the midwest states), Cardinals Decks (for the older women that attend festivals and art shows), House of Tudor (a history design for the women) and Divination (for the people who are into horror or supernatural).

Last year was the most varied my table has ever been at the shows, and the most successful. Over the 20 shows I did last year, I sold 5,464 Decks (averaging 273 Decks per show). I also have displays at 3 Indy area boutique stores. 1,337 Decks sold in those stores last year (almost half of them were Euchre Decks). My online storefront also added 277 Decks sold last year. I don’t advertise any of these income sources at all. So that’s 7,078 Decks sold last year, PLUS additional sales from Kickstarter and Murphy’s Magic. Last year was so so for me on Kickstarter (Ireland, Divination and Tudor). I’m guessing those numbers were around 1,500 - 1,800 Decks sold on Kickstarter and around 1,200 to Murphy’s. So almost 10,000 Decks overall last year.

This year is going to be lower because I had to pass on some of the big 3-Day shows I usually do. I spend 5 of my vacation days for some big Comic Cons that are Friday, Saturday and Sunday. My family and I are taking a two-week trip to England next month, so I didn’t have any vacation days to spare for large shows this year. To adjust, I signed up for more juried Art Shows in 2024 than usual (those are almost always just Saturday and Sunday).

I’ll turn 51 this August, so I’m starting to think about retirement a lot more than ever before. My plan is to continue doing Playing Cards designs, and the shows, well into retirement. By then I won’t have to worry about vacation days, and can do as many large shows as possible. This includes shows like the Indiana State Fair, Summer Festivals or Holiday Shows that run for a full week or more, or even travel across the country and do the largest Comic Cons (San Diego Comic Con, Dragon Con, Emerald City Con…).

Not having to pay someone for art and design is definitely a huge help. One man shows are the best way to keep it smooth and efficient. After Gambler’s Warehouse started getting backlogged years ago, I switched to fulfilling by myself as well. As long as you stay organized, it’s really not a big deal at all. My family and I even shipped almost 1,900 packages for the Red Rising Kickstarter in less than two weeks.

Red Rising was my most successful project. We had a little under 1,900 Backers and printed 5,000 each of 2 Decks. The profits for that project were a three-way split - 1/3 to me, 1/3 to the Illustrator and 1/3 to the author of the books, Pierce Brown. The final result was splitting $63,000 in profits between us ($21,000 for each of us) PLUS we have a little over 800 of each Deck leftover in my basement. We’re mostly saving those for a follow-up campaign when Pierce Brown is finished with the next set of books.

So the Kickstarter profits are definitely possible. Not as much with a large variety of Deck print runs though. I remember when we did the White ORNATES Kickstarter many years ago. The project received over $100k, but the print costs with USPCC were just over $100k. After seeing that, I vowed to never do a project with so many Decks ever again.

I could probably ramble on more and more, but I’ll stop here.

Thanks, Randy

Thank you for the insight!

You can ramble anytime you like Randy!

Me being silly looked for a ramble pic to attach
Instead I found this potential card back (IMO) by Karyn Soto
(The Ramble are a band)

He's earned the nickname Rambling Randy. Ramble away! Really informative.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:27 pm There are probably 2 producers who ACTUALLY make a sustainable living from producing playing cards.

1) Lorenzo. Who does multiple projects a year. Has a great loyal fan base. And is a 1 man operation (no designer costs etc.)
2) Jackson. Also does MANY releases a year. Has a loyal following. Is not a 1 man operation (in that he does his own fulfillment and has employees) but owns his fulfillment company and does not pay designers because he designs himself.

Of the rest of us (Gio is probably the closest--but to date I know he still has another job) followed by Jody and myself. Everyone else is probably barely breaking even (Meadowlark, Jocu have told me so themselves in livestream you can go watch--and I believe them because I've seen the funding they've raised and understand the work and costs involved.

No one is getting rich producing playing cards. It's a rewarding secondary revenue stream for just about all who manage to be successful at it--the few there is. Only companies like Theory 11 and Card mafia can really produce the numbers to garner a serious revenue stream--and those are companies with employees and overhead.

I would be lying if I say I didn’t wish to be Lorenzo right now

I started to feel he is THE “Lisan al-Ghaib” in Playing Cards community

RandyButterfield wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:50 pm (Stuff)

That was really interesting; thank you for sharing.

RandyButterfield wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:50 pm
So the Kickstarter profits are definitely possible. Not as much with a large variety of Deck print runs though. I remember when we did the White ORNATES Kickstarter many years ago. The project received over $100k, but the print costs with USPCC were just over $100k. After seeing that, I vowed to never do a project with so many Decks ever again.

I could probably ramble on more and more, but I’ll stop here.

Thanks, Randy

Good stuff Randy. Profits are an interesting word here. Anthony from Jocu recently (on my livestream) said what gets lost is compensation for the creator. Is it profits? Or wages? Interesting debate.

If you’re interested would love to have you as a guest on Deal Me In to discuss all things cards! Let me know.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:27 pm 2) Jackson. Also does MANY releases a year. Has a loyal following. Is not a 1 man operation (in that he does his own fulfillment and has employees) but owns his fulfillment company and does not pay designers because he designs himself. ... No one is getting rich producing playing cards.

Maybe not "no one"

Bloomberg, 2020 wrote:Kings Wild Project Inc., now a 20-person enterprise. ... The company is in the process of moving from Austin to outside Chattanooga, Tenn., and it’s on track for gross sales of $1.5 million in 2020, triple 2019’s figure and more than 10 times what it brought in two years ago.

For now, Kings Wild is a small player next to collector-card companies Art of Play and Theory11, which sells its decks at Target and Walgreens.

well $1.5M/20 people is $75k per person. And that doesn't event start to factor in production costs or facilities...thats not "rich".

Who knows what his business is at 4 years later, hes obviously felt the need to change business model slightly, going mostly to KS as a storefront ($425k and counting for the current campaign) and recently blowing out old stock at $5 a deck or something.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 11:17 am
Good stuff Randy. Profits are an interesting word here. Anthony from Jocu recently (on my livestream) said what gets lost is compensation for the creator. Is it profits? Or wages? Interesting debate.

If you’re interested would love to have you as a guest on Deal Me In to discuss all things cards! Let me know.

Sure! I’ve watched most of the Deal Me In videos. It would be fun!
My e-mail address is midnightcard@yahoo.com

Thanks, Randy

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:54 pm well $1.5M/20 people is $75k per person. And that doesn't event start to factor in production costs or facilities...thats not "rich".

Who knows what his business is at 4 years later, hes obviously felt the need to change business model slightly, going mostly to KS as a storefront ($425k and counting for the current campaign) and recently blowing out old stock at $5 a deck or something.

What businesses that employ 20 people give everyone an even cut?

and what business would pay $75k/yr to someone to package playing cards
have you seen the kids working for jr

aaaaand youre missing the main point which is that its not $75k per person profit, they had $75k per person in SALES before they pay every other cost...like getting the cards printed and shipped to them, having buildings, power, insurance, taxes, a lot more things.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:35 pm aaaaand youre missing the main point which is that its not $75k per person profit, they had $75k per person in SALES before they pay every other cost...like getting the cards printed and shipped to them, having buildings, power, insurance, taxes, a lot more things.

I didn't miss that point. I don't care what the numbers are because without any proof of anything they are useless. Business must be good for him if he has a warehouse or whatever you're talking about. All the power to him. Sunny days for everyone buddy.

RandyButterfield wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:25 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2024 11:17 am
Good stuff Randy. Profits are an interesting word here. Anthony from Jocu recently (on my livestream) said what gets lost is compensation for the creator. Is it profits? Or wages? Interesting debate.

If you’re interested would love to have you as a guest on Deal Me In to discuss all things cards! Let me know.

Sure! I’ve watched most of the Deal Me In videos. It would be fun!
My e-mail address is midnightcard@yahoo.com

Thanks, Randy

Hi Randy,

That was a great insight into what you do. A real eye opener.

Thanks for sharing.

Can't wait to see you on TGW's podcast!

Honeybee wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:33 am

I hope your days are filled with rainbows

That is sweet They pretty much are!

I wish the deck(s) would be more rainbows. I used to love Gio's decks but with Modern Idols, I lost interest. The quality back then wasn't up to TWI's standard and there is zero to none progress in the artwork unfortunately. Lore-wise and storytelling-wise TWI is still one of, if not the greatest but artwise, I personally can't justify getting another TWI deck. The Gentleman Thief doesn't manage to steal my heart, nor my funds.