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Not taking a side since I couldn't care less about AI or not. But in regards to a conversation between grown ups it's always kinda fancy to back claims with at least a reasoning - better even with a proof.

montenzi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:51 pm I understand everything, of course, but one thing is unclear to me: why claim that you drew it yourself. Both projects - the previous one (KS) and this one - are 100% AI. Just say it; people will understand. They like it, so what's the problem?

This statement is gonna make him go fuming. But don't take his words personally, it's just his character.

But to be fair, I don't understand why a designer like you will say this is AI. I think he's sharing sketch progress to his patrons or something.

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:30 pm This statement is gonna make him go fuming. But don't take his words personally, it's just his character.

But to be fair, I don't understand why a designer like you will say this is AI. I think he's sharing sketch progress to his patrons or something.

Let's see. I need some popcorn. I'm not against AI, you know, but his approach is quite disrespectful to UC members. I know what I am talking about.

With how he reacted on another deck that used AI, this will be a bombshell if proven true.

For the record, this is his position on AI art:

VillainousIndustries wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:25 pm Checking out their 'new artist' his work looks nothing like what any of this deck is.

They have NO F***ING CLUE ABOUT ART. Otherwise this wouldnt be called Abstrart. This isnt f***ing abstract art. This is surrealism, and pointism, and cubism, and basic portraits. if it were abstract, we wouldnt see any faces.

Im pissed. As a creator who has had to WORK to get people to take a chance on me, and then STILL cant release another Kickstarter or even promote my next ones openly until SPIRITS is fulfilled, but these people can just throw some prompts into midjourney and throw it on a template, then sell a literal cardboard box with some dollar-store shit glued onto them, and no one notices? Literally, hsbc, right here, said that the AoS is their vote for Ace of the YEAR! ITS A FULLY AI GENERATED IMAGE.

I might just up and quit making playing cards if this is the way this industry is going, I swear. Whats the point in putting in all this effort when I can just sh*t on a stack of paper and get funded.

Im fuming.

montenzi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:38 pm I know what I am talking about.

This is not at all enough for you to publicly accuse someone of misrepresenting their art IMO, especially with an apparent in-progress sketch posted above -- not to mention other images he's posted on e.g. Patreon

montenzi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:38 pm

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:30 pm This statement is gonna make him go fuming. But don't take his words personally, it's just his character.

But to be fair, I don't understand why a designer like you will say this is AI. I think he's sharing sketch progress to his patrons or something.

Let's see. I need some popcorn. I'm not against AI, you know, but his approach is quite disrespectful to UC members. I know what I am talking about.

It really doesn't sound like you do know what you're talking about.

I dont like calling people out but Montenzi you're making me regret supporting your recent campaign.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:45 pm I dont like calling people out but Montenzi you're making me regret supporting your recent campaign.

Your recent pledge has been refunded. Thanks!

Talk about popcorn lol.

This is quite entertaining

[Let's all try to lower the temperature in this thread, please]

hsbc wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:11 pm [Let's all try to lower the temperature in this thread, please]

As soon as " Villainous" sees this, I imagine he'll be pretty heated and justifiably speak out about it. Frankly Montenzi owes him an apology as he clearly has no evidence for this claim.

You have to admit the drafts or 'Scribbles' as Blues refers to them do not show how the Courts are created
And Villainous does not explain to Blues how they do

montenzi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:51 pm

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:45 pm I dont like calling people out but Montenzi you're making me regret supporting your recent campaign.

Your recent pledge has been refunded. Thanks!

Did Evilgamer actually ask for a refund or did you refund them based solely on that comment?

Timmargh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:47 pm

montenzi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:51 pm

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:45 pm I dont like calling people out but Montenzi you're making me regret supporting your recent campaign.

Your recent pledge has been refunded. Thanks!

Did Evilgamer actually ask for a refund or did you refund them based solely on that comment?

Thats the only time we've ever spoken. Leave it be, thats how he wanted to respond.

Timmargh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:47 pm Did Evilgamer actually ask for a refund or did you refund them based solely on that comment?

There was no double meaning in his phrase. Right? If it were you, I would have done the same.

I have been transparent about my process(es) since the very beginning when I posted the first card designs on Reddit.

I've talked about how I curate references for my concepts and designs.

I've shared images of my progression when creating cards.

My wife literally laughed at this because I bug her constantly to review sketches and initial designs. She always tells me when it looks like sh*t.

Like 'Disenchanted_11' pointed out I am wholly against generating fully AI images, throwing it onto a card template and calling it your work.

In contrast I see AI as a valuable tool for references. A starting point only.

As an example, with the Aphrodite deck, using AI to generate the pose I want for my Queen of Spades feels akin to sketching a real life person or sourcing a stock photo to get the proportions correct. When used THIS way it can be very valuable for designers and artists (I have always claimed to be a designer and not an artist btw), but claiming an entire generated image, without substantial alterations at least, as your work and as a finished product, is not my f*cking tempo.

But, then again, I would never refund a pledge based on a comment that doubts me or my work. I'd put on my big boy pants (freshly tailored), and talk to the community members about the concerns.

It's the community that makes or breaks any project, reputation, brand, etc.

The community deserves respect.

VillainousIndustries, could you tell us more about creating let's say the Ace of Spades for this deck? Do you have the source file available?

montenzi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:40 pm

Timmargh wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:47 pm Did Evilgamer actually ask for a refund or did you refund them based solely on that comment?

There was no double meaning in his phrase. Right? If it were you, I would have done the same.

There was no double meaning, that much is correct.

What it did not mean was “please cancel my pledge” - this is a particular phrase a customer uses when asking for a refund.

What did mean was “I don’t like the way you are acting” - this is a phrase a customer uses when calling you out. Your response was punitive, not helpful.


As for the claims you are making - you had best hope you are right at this point, because you have climbed way out on a limb

Not trying to throw gas on the flame but I showed some of art in the thread to my girl (she's an artist - with physical mediums and digital art) and asked if this was AI. She said:

"[referring to the KoS and JoS on page 1 of this thread] Best guess is yes. But it’s not as obvious as some others. The nature of the style lends itself to being convincing, characteristics that are normally dead giveaways blend in more.

I think the biggest clue is the eyes here. They aren’t symmetrical enough, and I think even for the art style any artist would see that and want to fix it.

Additionally the lighting on the roses,, it doesn’t have a direction and they feel off. The black and red outlining could be stylistic but it’s an interesting choice, at least the way that it’s done. Feels too directionless.

The lips and roses are also seemingly different styles.

And the fact that this whole image is at an angle hides things too. The angle make it weird but I don’t think the perspective of any of the noses are quite right.

[Referring to the rose crown in the card to the bottom left of KoS] This part screams AI though. Just like weirdly morphed and blended.

It’s pretty cool AI art, I’ll givem that. This is sick as f*ck, the hair and the flesh and bones? I f*ck with it"

After noticing the details she pointed out to me, I am inclined to agree with Montenzi.

That being said, I'm not someone who had an issue with AI art

KGthePrince wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:37 am Not trying to throw gas on the flame but I showed some of art in the thread to my girl (she's an artist - with physical mediums and digital art) and asked if this was AI. She said:

"[referring to the KoS and JoS on page 1 of this thread] Best guess is yes. But it’s not as obvious as some others. The nature of the style lends itself to being convincing, characteristics that are normally dead giveaways blend in more.

I think the biggest clue is the eyes here. They aren’t symmetrical enough, and I think even for the art style any artist would see that and want to fix it.

Additionally the lighting on the roses,, it doesn’t have a direction and they feel off. The black and red outlining could be stylistic but it’s an interesting choice, at least the way that it’s done. Feels too directionless.

The lips and roses are also seemingly different styles.

And the fact that this whole image is at an angle hides things too. The angle make it weird but I don’t think the perspective of any of the noses are quite right.

[Referring to the rose crown in the card to the bottom left of KoS] This part screams AI though. Just like weirdly morphed and blended.

It’s pretty cool AI art, I’ll givem that. This is sick as f*ck, the hair and the flesh and bones? I f*ck with it"

After noticing the details she pointed out to me, I am inclined to agree with Montenzi.

That being said, I'm not someone who had an issue with AI art

See some of the zoomed in screenshots for reference when reading her feedback (for the eyes, roses, and lips)

Regardless, I wish it wasn't a Patreon exclusive so I could back it

Tbf he's only ever claimed that he's against 100% ai generated art vs. ai assissted art. The borderline is thin though.

KGthePrince, thanks. I will also add my comments and explain something, but a little later. Let's give him time to show us the source. It's probably a hard task.
p.s. using AI is not crime lol. That's why it's a very interesting case (from the very beginning).

Wow. Quite the kinetic conversation, esp. when one designer/illustrator calls out another. I appreciate everyone keeping their cool.

I'll also remind readers that English is not necessarily the first language of everyone commenting on this thread, and thus some nuance can be lost at times in the discussion. Again, I appreciate everyone keeping their cool.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:53 pm Thats the only time we've ever spoken. Leave it be, thats how he wanted to respond.

There's so much I want to say, but I'll respect your wish to leave it. You're a calmer person than I.

Timmargh wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:53 am There's so much I want to say, but I'll respect your wish to leave it. You're a calmer person than I.

Just say it! Do it here or directly to me (email or IG).

I am not an artist. I've said this before.

I've never tried to misdirect or lead people on onto thinking that I am.

I have an envato elements subscription and my day job is social media and graphic design.

I also have a professional background of making album covers.

I guess I wasn't very clear in my last post.

I AM NO STRANGER TO USING GENERATIVE ART IN MY WORK.

I have never denied it.

I will make a (really trash) sketch of the idea in my head, (a thumbnail sketch of my King of Diamonds from SPIRITS is floating around somewhere, pretty sure I gave it to Paul Flick.) If I am somewhere I can't just whip out pen and paper to catch the idea, I'll jot down the words in my notes app of what I want the general themes to be for whatever I'm thinking.

Once I am at my computer, I boot up Photoshop.

I take multiple elements from stock images, graphics, GENERATIVE art, overlays, textures, etc. From this, I form a DESIGN like I would an album cover. I edit this collage into a cohesive form, then add the card elements, like my 'ghost' pips and value.

It takes me, roughly 4-8 hours per card, depending on the complexity of the design.

Once satisfied with it, I export it to Illustrator where I can vectorize it in CMYK for best print quality.

---

Once I got an iPad, that was a game changer. I could sketch right on a screen (really crappy squiggle drawings) and have started to practice drawing almost daily, using my designs as the reference.

---

I have never claimed to be an artist. I have never claimed I don't use AI art.

SPIRITS was created just before the AI policy was created on Kickstarter. Otherwise I would have disclosed my use of AI in my campaign.

As nothing more than a generation tool for elements, starting points for designs, or references for my ideas.

Also I use chatgpt for a lot of my written stuff, much like someone would use grammarly, to make a professional sounding starting point.

---

I go off on people who use 100% ai art (with little to zero editing) who DO NOT DISCLOSE IT. Hao Phan has, time and time again proven they are not trustworthy. Their designs are ripped straight from vecteezy or a generated piece and thrown on a card template. Then they go on to NOT disclose they used AI in the campaign, claim they have an artist, and just blatantly lie about it.

That's when I have an issue.

If someone makes a fully ai art deck and discloses that AI was used, then sweet, I hope the people that back that project like their rewards.

---

So when someone claims I use/used 100% AI art, yea I get heated. It's incorrect.

Depending on the design I use, idk, maybe 20% AI art? It's hard to tell once I put all the design elements together.

But to come at me, being all like "HE USES AI ART".

Okay? I have never said I did not.

Saying 100% AI art is just a flat out incorrect statement.

---

Here is my album cover design for King Moonracer (metal band with one of the guitarists from Megadeth featured)
This design used ZERO AI.

So. Yea. That's all I have got to say.

I have even started drawing cards and cardbacks from scratch but, it's called my 'Sketchy' series. The card back for my first one (Sketchy Void)
I even have a video of me drawing one of the cards on my patreon.

So.

VillainousIndustries wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 9:53 am I have even started drawing cards and cardbacks from scratch but, it's called my 'Sketchy' series. The card back for my first one (Sketchy Void)

Patreon post image-6.jpg

I even have a video of me drawing one of the cards on my patreon.

So.

Like I said before, I'm not holding you to the flame. I think you're a cool designer. If you ever have extra Patreon decks, I'm sure a lot of here would be interested in buying them. Wishing you all the best homie. I think you have a great brand.

Thank you, @VillainousIndustries, for your posts! You handled this very professionally, unlike some usual suspects who prefer personal attacks before even starting a conversation. Much respect for that! Really appreciated! You have explained everything and addressed all the gaps, so I don't feel the need to add anything. I wish you all the best! Keep doing what you love doing.