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Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 4:40 am
by Adamthinks
Jocu just posted this update for Onda V.2
"Just a quick note that we received the first samples of cards printed at the Fournier facility through Cartamundi after their moving of production.
The samples are great - pretty much identical to what we're used to from Belgium and although there have been some behind the scenes tweaks to varnish etc you'd be hard pressed to notice any difference between the two.
We are now waiting on final pricing updated for the new facility and we will be able to press ahead. In the meantime the files have past prepress and we're good to go. This stage is taking a little longer than we expected, but I'm told it's a matter of days now that things are up and running."
So samples are out there now and looking good apparently. We'll still have to see if there will be any gilding issues I guess, but at least there's some tangible forward progress. Jocu doesn't use Cartamundi for gilding so that might might lead to less issues for them.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:43 pm
by crazy_lazy
While it's good to hear that Cartamundi's new stock and finish is near identical to B9 slimline, I'm curious why they are sending out samples when the stock is still being developed, namely with gilding. They currently don't have their gilding process squared away, and I assume that would require some change in varnish, stock, or some other factor that could affect handling. Wouldn't it make sense to send out samples once everything about the stock is finalized?
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 4:13 pm
by Adamthinks
crazy_lazy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:43 pm
While it's good to hear that Cartamundi's new stock and finish is near identical to B9 slimline, I'm curious why they are sending out samples when the stock is still being developed, namely with gilding. They currently don't have their gilding process squared away, and I assume that would require some change in varnish, stock, or some other factor that could affect handling. Wouldn't it make sense to send out samples once everything about the stock is finalized?
It's possible that they're not planning on altering the cards, but instead the gilding process. To figure out a way to get it right with a little less heat, since the varnish being more sensitive to heat is the issue. Jocu had mentioned that the gilder that they use initially had issues with the previous cards and the varnish with heat and figured out how to get it right. I imagine they'll have to do that again with the new cards. Though this is all speculation.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:56 pm
by hsbc
Elettra Deganello La Mouche KS update wrote:Lastly, but not least importantly, you should be aware that I might be considering shifting production to Cartamundi. The company has moved manufacturing to Spain and consequently suspended activities for developing a new board and varnish for the playing cards. After months, I eventually received a sample deck called “Test Heraclio”, featuring what they described as an improved B9 paper stock. I will keep you posted in case any official changes occur.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:51 am
by Adamthinks
From the comments in Elettra's last update about the test cards,"While I am not an expert in cardistry and can not judge how smooth the handling feels, my impression is that the paper stock texture is slightly larger and more pronounced than it used to be in the past. The cut quality may also be imperfect, but this could be due to the deck being a test version. I have uploaded some pictures for you to see."
Looking at the pictures, it definitely looks like the stock texture is more pronounced like she said. What this means to me is that foiled decks will be even muddier than previous with the new cards.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:35 pm
by manu
I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison, but yeah that does look more pronounced. It's disappointing to see that the registration is off-center, when that was one of the purported reasons for the factory move.
Also, for those who don't know, Heraclio refers to Heraclio Fournier González, the founder of the Fournier factories which are now being used by Cartamundi.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:47 pm
by Honeybee
I have never liked that texture - it really detracts from most images. Is that texture what they refer to as 'air glide' finish
Maybe we can go for smooth Fournier instead of Heraclio
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:31 pm
by Evilgamer
Thats almost certainly the "linen" texture. Most time when something refers to 'air glide" its the finish that looks like a golf ball with a lot of small circular air pockets.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:15 pm
by hsbc
TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:07 pm
I have received the sample Cartamundi decks. I can confirm that the stock, finish AND linen deboss are all different. It's not terrible although not as good as slimline b9 imo. The deck in my possession bows a bit and has developed a click. The overall thickness of the deck is the same. I have not seen a cold foil sample, only CMYK. And as mentioned NO GILDING. I will be making a video on my channel this week to go over this.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:39 pm
by Adamthinks
For what its worth, Jocu had this to say about the test deck
"I can't really share it as it's just a sample - it has a couple of aspects that are not standard and the gossip mill will go into overdrive worse than it already has if I were to share it (it features non-standard rounded corners, for example, that will not be used for our decks)
Maybe we'll do a giveaway one day at a less sensitive time
The stock and varnish itself are otherwise identical to the eye as B9 slimline. The important thing is the deck thickness is identical. I'm not even sure if they altered this tbh... they make plenty of tweaks from time to time without announcing anything so it's fine.
They feel great, as good as always."
I'm not sure who's right, but the pictures certainly make them look different.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:12 pm
by kevork
Looks the same to me
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:43 pm
by ShuffleUpandDeal
You would think with all those creators printing in China that decks would be cheaper yet they are not, I guess it's a way to pad their wallets instead.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 4:11 pm
by hsbc
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 4:12 pm
by hsbc
ShuffleUpandDeal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:43 pm
You would think with all those creators printing in China that decks would be cheaper yet they are not, I guess it's a way to pad their wallets instead.
Kings Wild lowered prices a year or two ago as a result of moving most decks to Tongheng
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:41 pm
by TheGentlemanWake
ShuffleUpandDeal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:43 pm
You would think with all those creators printing in China that decks would be cheaper yet they are not, I guess it's a way to pad their wallets instead.
Well, I'm offering a $10 coupon to supporters of the goldsmith. The prices aren't honestly that far apart when you consider shipping costs from the tuck manufacturer to China and then to the fulfillment centers.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:44 pm
by Honeybee
I don't see small-medium card desinger/producers getting rich. Let them make a half decent living or we will soon have nothing worth buying.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:36 pm
by hsbc
Omar said Cartamundi told him that cards with dark/black borders are especially affected by the varnish/heating/gilding problem
Heraclio on the left, B9 on the right:
The pictures from Elettra above seem somewhat different texture-wise.....
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:49 pm
by laitostarr777
Heraclio's looked like the Linen Finish is not as visible as the previous B9 Finish. Hmmmmmmm....
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:23 pm
by Evilgamer
Honestly I think the lesser texture should turn out to be a plus.
But not enough to risk a decks quality until they figure out how to do this properly especially with foiling/gilding.
It's good to see people start to come around to what I figured was going to happen 6 months ago...that Cartamundi is no longer a known/consistent quantity any more. Omar pointed out that the handling\finish on his decks and the one that S17 has MIGHT not be the same. Hopefully it's not going to result in a a few disappointing high profile decks. And Hopefully in 6 months to a year they get it all dialed in again.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:33 pm
by Honeybee
Linen finish is what Bicycle call Air Cushion finish - right? And nowadays it is crushed into the paper - right?
This means that the different terms used on differently branded USPCC produced decks today often refer to the same thing. For example, the "Air-Cushion finish" (Bicycle decks), "Linoid finish" (Tally Ho decks), or "Cambric finish" (Bee decks), in reality are all identical today. To complicate matters, the legal department of USPCC made a peculiar ruling at one stage to designate all Bicycle branded decks as having an "Air-Cushion finish", regardless of the actual finish or texture! In reality these different finish names are legacies from the days when decks did have unique coatings/finishes, which were applied with fabric/cloth-rollers. Nowadays the texture is no longer in the coating, but is crushed into the paper with steel rollers to create an embossed effect, and this is identical for all USPCC decks that are embossed rather than smooth.
https://playingcarddecks.com/blogs/all- ... -of-a-deck
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 1:56 pm
by Adamthinks
Well, I watched the recent episode of Deal Me In and there is some interesting info there about Cartamundi. For starters it seems pretty clear that the process they are using to make these new cards is currently very inconsistent. The cards Omar received have a texture pattern that is only horizontal, the one's Elettra shared pictures of have a cross hatch pattern and are more prominent, Lorenzo's cards clump when fanned, and Jocu apparently thinks they are more similar to the B9 slimline. So until they dial that in (however long that will take, a month, 6 months, longer, who knows) I would expect fulfilled projects from Cartamundi to vary greatly with each individual deck delivered to backers. Because their texture greatly affects how foil shows up, It seems likely that that also will differ with each individual deck. And the issue for gilding is still ongoing. Hopefully those issues get sorted quickly, but I tend to doubt that. Communication seems to still be an issue with Cartamundi as producers continue to be finding out about changes and issues after the fact and with no warning (they were told about the Belgium facility closing after it happened and not months before, they are finding out now that they are developing new cards and not before). If I were a producer , especially one with a project on hold, I'd be more than a little annoyed that I wasn't able to make an informed decision when I had initially been told about the move. I imagine some producers would have made the decision to switch printers then if they knew a new card was going to be developed, instead of having to wait many months to make that call. Another bit of speculation that Omar brought up between him and Lorenzo is that they suspect the Belgium facility hasn't actually been closed down, and that it's only custom cards that they were moving. That makes sense to me as I haven't heard of any delays for casino decks or Magic the Gathering decks.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:28 pm
by crazy_lazy
My main concern is Lorenzo's deck clumping when fanning. I loved B9 Slimline because it handled far better than USPC decks, but clumpy fans on test decks that weren't even foiled/gilded is a red flag to me. Either Cartamundi sent out unfinalized test decks (not sure why they would do that), or we should all expect a big drop in quality in the cards from them moving forward. Though Omar didn't explicitly state it, the new stock does not sound anywhere near the quality of B9 Slimline. Needless to say, I'm not feeling good about this new stock.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:50 pm
by montenzi
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:40 pm
by Honeybee
Thanks for the detailed pics and info Monte. For those still wishing to hear Omar's analysis, you can zoom to the last 15 minutes of his latest youtube release (if you're not interested in the hour interview with Russ Gray)
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 2:36 pm
by hsbc
TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 12:21 pm
Harvonsgard wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:43 am
I doubt they move to Spain for that but it certainly has something to do with the Fournier plant. Last time I spoke with Jirs (which was ages ago though) it didn't sound like they want to move away from B9. Why should they anyways? I'm not as active across all platforms anymore but when I was, I sensed that a lot of folks hold B9 slimline in high regards.
Lorenzo mentioned that Jirs is no longer with Cartamundi in an official capacity as of february. LOTS OF CHANGES over at cartamundi.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:21 pm
by Honeybee
Based on the feedback we received from different people on the samples, we decided to do more testing to improve the varnish and linen finish. This however can only be done in June, as we need to wait for varnish development and the revised linen finish machine, as we had another setback on this machine. We will send you new sample decks as soon as available.
As consequence, we can only start up production as from September.
Cartamundi email received by Jocu (see Onda thread)
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:50 pm
by manu
Oof, that's rough.
With all of these producers turning to WJPC, I wonder why no one seems to be considering Legends? Their Viper Finish is the closest to the Slimline I've seen (they're actually a tad thinner).
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:18 pm
by Evilgamer
manu wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:50 pm
Oof, that's rough.
With all of these producers turning to WJPC, I wonder why no one seems to be considering Legends? Their Viper Finish is the closest to the Slimline I've seen (they're actually a tad thinner).
WJPC is a known quantity everyone likes
I suspect that as WJPCs timelines start to get longer we'll start seeing more people printing with legends, Kingstar and EPCC.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:38 pm
by Bradius
I saw Anthony's kickstarter update and read what Omar just wrote. While I really like Cartamundi's cold foil process, this is just a death nail for custom cards right now with Cartamundi. While I can wait, the deck producers can't wait. They have to get their projects finished and get new ones launched or they starve. They hardly make any money as it is. It is a shame and I sure hope Cartamundi can get back in the game. However, this move has been a disaster to the custom playing card community. However difficult Cartamundi has been for some creators, they have been a go to producer for many and produced quality decks. It also had an important benefit for collectors in the EU at avoiding excessive VAT.
I absolutely understand why creators are frustrated and pivoting as fast as possible to USPCC, WJPCC and others. Argh! Not what we needed.
Re: Cartamundi Factory Relocation
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:50 pm
by hsbc
Are there any smaller card producers in the EU along the lines of Shuffled Ink or Mr. Playing Card?
