Kings Wild "Vintage Reimagined" Subscription

[Bradius]

Yeah, I had a similar thought process. I came come up with seventy reasons to hold off....strongly I am not having a similar discussion with Gio...

[Strag]

Right after I got the email (Wednesday) I checked...

106 Gilded available when the email went out, 72 now, 400 made
456 Limited available when the email went out, 423 now, 800 made

I couldn't justify getting these even if I wanted them, the shipped cost for two of each is $258 plus the likely 20% VAT I would have to pay due to the high declared value. Just not worth it to me. I get that others like them, as they are at least selling.

[JacksonRobinson]

New Empire History Page

https://kingswildproject.com/products/e ... f79b&_ss=r

[hsbc]

Empire

[hsbc]

Upcoming May deck, El Dorado - from JR on Discord

[Harvonsgard]

One of my favorite decks of all time .

[STLBluesNut]

these tucks look really nice! he remembered how to make not plain tucks.

[Harvonsgard]

If that deck isn't Metalluxe - dropped ball.

[hsbc]

Super bummed, just got a phone call from USPCC and they may be putting the legal axe to the Crow Brand vintage reimagined deck. Don't know anything else just yet. But would suck if I had to.change course now.

This deck is/was scheduled for July

[hsbc]

El Dorado, May 2022


















Definitely my favorite so far

[wingedpotato]

Beautiful deck, but I know it will be more than I can spend.

[STLBluesNut]

ugh that picture of the top of the deck where you removed the seal. i really dislike seals.

[wingedpotato]

ugh that picture of the top of the deck where you removed the seal. i really dislike seals.

They smell fishy and can be pretty loud, but I like them and they are very trainable.

[hsbc]

Some more previews from the KWP Discord...

Oriole, scheduled for September 2022

(Posted this initially in the No. 13 Club thread by mistake, sorry )

Also this was originally going to be the Steamboats deck:

Because of the Royalty fee i will have to pay USPCC for using the Steamboat name, I'm punting the Steamboats and going with a cool deck called Oriole Playing Cards

[hsbc]

What does the name Oriole represent?

An oriole is a type of bird As to whether there's an old-timey Oriole deck this is based on, I have no idea

[EvilDuncan]

What does the name Oriole represent?

An oriole is a type of bird As to whether there's an old-timey Oriole deck this is based on, I have no idea

There is! I don’t know about the tuck, but the Joker looks exactly like this.

[hsbc]

Did some Googling, looks like it's based on the 1915 NYCC Oriole 912 deck



Jackson said on Discord "the tuck case will be all new as the original is a little boring, i think"

[hsbc]

USPCC is really rubbing me the wrong way on the vintage reimagined decks. For a deck that was made in 1910 and then not ever reproduced after (way out of the public domain timeframe) the gave me the ultimatum time other take both "By Jackson Robinson and Kings Wild Project" off all elements, tuck, AoS, and joker, or I can't make the Oriole deck... So I'm not making the Oriole deck. USPCC is starting to want to take my business elsewhere. Not sure what I'm gonna do in it's place but I'm not taking my name off it. And on top of all that, they want me to pay them a royalty as well.

[Bradius]

Sadly, I am not surprised by USPCC's stand.

They should be warned that it isn't good to tick off a talented artist with an imagination...just saying a parody deck might be coming...

[alric]

I'm not an expert, Sinjin can probably explain it better (if he ever decides to stop by again...) but I assume USPCC has their intellectual property rights, and they have the right to enforce it however they see fit, including royalties. God forbid a big corporation from making a profit for their shareholders. I expect 90 years from now if some up and coming deck designer wanted to remake any of KWP original decks, Jackson's grandkids will seek to vigorously enforce their company's IP rights as they see fit as well. I see no reasons for complaints here.

[Harvonsgard]

Other designers would be ripped apart by collectors for decks like the Table Players or Vintage Reimagined but because Jackson is open about the inspiration and is considered one of the best in the game he gets a pass.
Now, after he charges an arm and a leg for them he crys about USPCC wanting their share? Thanks for sharing that joke. I couldn't have come up with a better punchline. Seems like companies rhyming on XYZ are a tad crybaby.

[EvilDuncan]

I'm not an expert, Sinjin can probably explain it better (if he ever decides to stop by again...) but I assume USPCC has their intellectual property rights, and they have the right to enforce it however they see fit, including royalties. God forbid a big corporation from making a profit for their shareholders. I expect 90 years from now if some up and coming deck designer wanted to remake any of KWP original decks, Jackson's grandkids will seek to vigorously enforce their company's IP rights as they see fit as well. I see no reasons for complaints here.

As far as I can tell, the Orioles deck is currently in public domain. 90 years from now, KWP will still own the copyright to Jackson's decks.

[rousselle]

If the deck that is being reimagined was produced in 1910, there's no way that IP is not in the public domain. Now, if USPCC owns the trademark, that would be another story, but I also doubt that is the case, so while I am not a lawyer, my understanding of the law is that JR is free reimagine that deck all he wants.

However, the law isn't really the issue here.

USPCC can choose with whom to do business, and if they decide that they would prefer to not dilute their brand -- even those elements that have fallen into the public domain -- they can certainly use withholding future cooperation as a tactic for pressuring JR to comply with their wishes. However, if that tactic backfires (as it appears to be doing), JR can take his business elsewhere, and USPCC can do nothing about it if he decides to produce his version of this deck elsewhere (as long as he doesn't infringe upon any of their active trademarks or copyrights in the process.) But, beyond the fate of JR's version of that deck is the consequences of the bad blood that ensues. Even if JR never produces that deck with any manufacturer, his future working relationship with USPCC could become exceedingly problematic. Any benefit that they might have received from JR's continued partnership with them would be lost. (And make no mistake, this series really does shine a favorable light on USPCC's historic role in the evolution of playing cards. This is, in many ways, the best kind of PR you can get: when someone pays YOU to produce something that is all about glorifying YOUR image.)

A few of you seem to think that JR is being a crabby pants over this whole thing, but from what's being described above, he's not the one who has suddenly decided to change the cadence of their established working relationship. If I were in JR's shoes, I'd be annoyed too, and I'd be rethinking my partnership with a business that reneges on an established ongoing project. One of the things I have always hated the most is people and companies acting in bad faith.

YMMV.

[hsbc]

I really hope I meet someone high up at USPCC one day so I can tell them all the things they're doing wrong

[alric]

USPCC can choose with whom to do business, and if they decide that they would prefer to not dilute their brand -- even those elements that have fallen into the public domain -- they can certainly use withholding future cooperation as a tactic for pressuring JR to comply with their wishes. However, if that tactic backfires (as it appears to be doing), JR can take his business elsewhere, and USPCC can do nothing about it if he decides to produce his version of this deck elsewhere (as long as he doesn't infringe upon any of their active trademarks or copyrights in the process.) But, beyond the fate of JR's version of that deck is the consequences of the bad blood that ensues. Even if JR never produces that deck with any manufacturer, his future working relationship with USPCC could become exceedingly problematic. Any benefit that they might have received from JR's continued partnership with them would be lost. (And make no mistake, this series really does shine a favorable light on USPCC's historic role in the evolution of playing cards. This is, in many ways, the best kind of PR you can get: when someone pays YOU to produce something that is all about glorifying YOUR image.)

A few of you seem to think that JR is being a crabby pants over this whole thing, but from what's being described above, he's not the one who has suddenly decided to change the cadence of their established working relationship. If I were in JR's shoes, I'd be annoyed too, and I'd be rethinking my partnership with a business that reneges on an established ongoing project. One of the things I have always hated the most is people and companies acting in bad faith.

YMMV.

The bottom line is if the Oriole deck is, in fact, in the public domain because USPCC's IP has expired, then Jackson can do whatever he wants with his version of the Oriole deck and the USPCC can kiss his ass. But given the fact that Jackson was in negotiations with USPCC and they're giving him ultimatums makes me think they still retain some form of legal IP. If that's the case, then Jackson has to play by their rules and should stop bitching about it. I think its a bit of a stretch to conclude definitively that the USPCC is acting in bad faith if they have the legal right to set the rules as they please.

If USPCC has no IP, then I doubt they would even resort to the pressure tactics to bend Jackson to their will like you describe above. First of all, why would Jackson care? Jackson has been moving away from USPCC for a while now and most of his decks are now printed in China, so he wouldn't give a damn anyway (as evidenced by his rant on Discord). But more importantly, the USPCC doesn't care about Jackson's business. I'm sorry, but they really don't. A quick Google search showed the USPCC's net sales in 2018 was $112 MILLION. We all know Carta Mundi acquired USPCC, and Carta Mundi's revenues in 2021 was $440 MILLION, so any business with Jackson represents a vastly inconsequential drop in the bucket for USPCC. In a small community such as ours, Jackson's a bit of a big deal and we have a lot of respect for Jackson's talent, and rightly so. But let's not be so naive to think in the real world that a big corporation such as USPCC/Carta Mundi loses any sleep over whether Jackson wants to print a deck with them or not.

[Adamthinks]

Alric, nearly all of his decks are printed at USPCC, only a couple have been printed in China. All of the Table Players, all of the Vintage re-imagined, and all of the No. 13 decks except the upcoming Sterling deck. The LOTR decks also are made by USPCC. USPCC is likely just throwing it's weight around because he's printing with them and they can just say no. The Oriole deck was printed in 1910 and never reprinted, the chances of it not being in the public domain are very very very slim. For Jackosn to tell them to kiss his ass, he'd have to move his entire business to a new printer.

[Harvonsgard]

Alric, nearly all of his decks are printed at USPCC, only a couple have been printed in China.

Due to the high shipping costs. Jackson was very happy to take his business in the past to EPCC already. Loads of 2020/21 decks in his Master List that were printed by EPCC in China.

[alric]

Alric, nearly all of his decks are printed at USPCC, only a couple have been printed in China. All of the Table Players, all of the Vintage re-imagined, and all of the No. 13 decks except the upcoming Sterling deck. The LOTR decks also are made by USPCC. USPCC is likely just throwing it's weight around because he's printing with them and they can just say no. The Oriole deck was printed in 1910 and never reprinted, the chances of it not being in the public domain are very very very slim. For Jackosn to tell them to kiss his ass, he'd have to move his entire business to a new printer.

Looking at the available decks on his KWP site, here are the decks printed in China:

Legal Tender, all versions
Arthurian
Robin Hood
Beowulf
Mistborn
1982 VHS
Maduro
Deck the Halls
Federal 52 foiled
Silver Certificate
Black Reserve Note
White Reserve Note
Gold Certificate
Sherlock Holmes Foil
Solstice
Equinox
General Admission
KWPreston Big Red One
Silver Arrows
2021 Table Players Vol. 7-12

As you can see, it's a hell of a lot more than just a couple. By the way, all 6 Table Players Volumes in 2021 were printed by EPCC. If I added all the decks not printed by the USPCC to the China printed list, you will see the majority of his decks are not printed with USPCC. If you look at his master deck list for all the decks he ever printed, you'll see his progression away from USPCC over time. He spoke at length of his preference to work with EPCC over USPCC in the past. He had a falling out with EPCC and now he's touting his new mystery printer in China. Sure, he still prints some decks with USPCC, but if his relationship completely breaks down with USPCC, he won't miss them. And USPCC won't miss Jackson, either.

[Adamthinks]

Yes, he used EPCC a lot in the past, but he doesn't anymore (for whatever reason). My point was that nearly all of his 2022 decks are being printed at USPCC, so it would be no simple thing to transfer everything over elsewhere ( if he's not using EPCC, Legends would probably be the only other option). And as such, him telling USPCC to kiss his ass over this issue isn't as simple as you are indicating.

[EvilDuncan]

There was nο "falling out" with EPCC and he isn't "touting" his new printer. He basically only shifted more to EPCC because they could do the foiling he wanted and USPCC couldn't. Shipping from China became very expensive, so he chose to use domestic printers instead. While this mystery printer is also in China (I think), he is only using it for very select projects (puzzles, Sterling, etc.). Everything else (as far as I know) is going to USPCC.

Obviously USPCC doesn't need his business. Still doesn't change the fact that it's a bad look for them.