Circuit Playing Cards (KS)

[Fud]

But, I don't understand what you don't understand about people choosing to sit this one out. When Ben was unable to elicit decent results from WJPC on more than one occasion, and didn't really seem to take action on his backers' voiced concerns, it stands to reason that they (we) would lose faith that the next time would be any different. And, while you are correct that USPCC isn't always 100% awesome, and WJPC isn't always 100% terrible, nonetheless, we do need to make decisions about where to allocate our funds, and typical experience will factor into those decisions.

I totally get this, and I'm not annoyed or frustrated that people are not purchasing a product based on quality - it's a reality of commerce. I believe the finish and handling on the Circuit cards IS better than the Cyberpunk, a claim I made based on my ability to fan like Decknowledgy, but I understand that people are wary and they have every right to be.

Unfortunately in business there is always a trade off between the cost of quality and the cost of opportunity. I tried to print with Cartamundi, 5 months later and I am still waiting to recieve a sample pack or detailed description of available stock/finishes. I have been frustrated by USPCC in the past so I didn't go with them. By my estimation, EPCC and LPCC finish is comparable to that of the WJPC samples I had, so I ruled them out as an alternative. If I waited for Cartamundi to respond, I might get 1-2 decks out a year - for me the cost of lost opportunity there FAR outweights the cost of lower quality.

Moving forward, I have approached both Cartamundi and USPCC to try and discuss 2020 plans. I want to move all first run production to either of these companies, which means all KS campaigns and deck releases will be USPCC or Cartamundi printed. I laid out my company position, expected projects throughout 2020, current volumes, commitments, etc, and this was the result:
- Cartamundi: No response.
- USPCC: Due to a communication error, they quoted me on 50k decks (50,000), with a CAD price of $1.95 / deck + $2-$6 PER DECK for embossing OR foil + the uncontrollable 10% 'potential' overrun. They thought I was going to print 50k of the same deck, and the best they could offer me was $3.95-7.95 CAD for a 'standard' deck with embossing + foil. 50k decks. I pointed out the absurdity of this, we had a bit of back and forth, and now it's been with them for a few days. If that is the cost for 50k decks, what are they going to quote me for a 5k run?
So my top 2 options for a quality 2020 have been a frustration.

I do try hard to adapt to customer's suggestions/complaints which may not be obvious, simply because the main concern (the printer) has not been able to be resolved. If I had it my way, Every deck from Circuit onwards would have a first run top tier printer, but until they communicate reliably with me, I don't have many options.

There is another side to this, and that is the target market. I really enjoy the people here, I think it is an absolute treasure of knowledge, experience and passion, but we do have a tendancy to be a lot more picky about the quality of decks than the everyman. That is not meant as a slight (the fans of any field know what is quality and what's not), but there are designers who design for real cardists/magicians/collectors (who must have top quality + design), those who design for the masses (design + price), and those who throw a clipart on a deck and say it's a cardistry deck (who only need a great video + influencers). I am trying to fit in the middle of the first two; please the collectors and the masses. As such, I need to keep finances, consistency and relationship in mind when feeding the pipeline of work. So far WJPC have been the best in carrying this balance for me - I would not be in the position I am if I was paying >$4/deck with USPCC or waiting weeks for responses from Cartamundi.

All that to say, I am trying to move all 2020 production to a top tier printer, I think the Circuits came out well, and I DO hear you all but feel virtually optionless at the moment

Also, at $10 / deck, why NOT pick up a Circuit? They are awesome decks!

Finally, if you have any other questions about my process or thinking behind how I am conducting EPC at the moment, feel free to ask away. I'm not going to keep much back (as you can see from my Zoo52 project finances), and I can assure you that there is a practical, non-greedy explanation for almost every decision made to date.

Ben

[hsbc]

I tried to print with Cartamundi, 5 months later and I am still waiting to recieve a sample pack or detailed description of available stock/finishes.

How do we summon Jirs' new account here? [MURRAY]

I also would note that people have a much higher opinion of EPCC than WPCC, so I'd look into them again

[Fud]

How do we summon Jirs' new account here? [MURRAY]

I also would note that people have a much higher opinion of EPCC than WPCC, so I'd look into them again

If I were Jirs, I would be very wary of unleashing the floodgates here!

I worked with LPCC a while ago and have a few LPCC decks. They use the same factory as EPCC so my assumption is that they are of comparable quality. My choice there was based on the feel of the Circuit cards which were as good as LPCC, but cost much less, printed faster, and with more reliable communication.

[hsbc]

If I were Jirs, I would be very wary of unleashing the floodgates here!

https://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopi ... 20#p164106" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Too late

[macstrat]

Mine were opened by a friend and he sent me a photo of the PCB deck. Gotta say I'm loving the art. He mentioned the finish issue, but again, for me, it's more about look than finish. I am greatly looking forward to seeing them in person. Scans coming soon

[Decknowledgy]

I worked with LPCC a while ago and have a few LPCC decks. They use the same factory as EPCC so my assumption is that they are of comparable quality. My choice there was based on the feel of the Circuit cards which were as good as LPCC, but cost much less, printed faster, and with more reliable communication.

I believe EPCC and LPCC are going in different routes gradually. EPCC has been shifting their printing to China (PRC) and experimenting on different finishes while LPCC is kinda stalled in their production, probably because of the warehouse fire. Both printing houses are gradually moving their printing to China for cheaper costs, as told by Bomb Magic. Nonetheless, EPCC is evidently having the upper hand in potential, quality, and experimenting in comparison to LPCC (slightly) and WJPC.

[macstrat]

Full Deck Scans:
PCB Edition - https://www.flickr.com/photos/167981955 ... 0744930832" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
White - https://www.flickr.com/photos/167981955 ... 0744898987" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blue - https://www.flickr.com/photos/167981955 ... 0744382511" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Green - https://www.flickr.com/photos/167981955 ... 0744411411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rousselle]

I ended up ordering one of each of these from Amazon.com during the "we just made these public" sale, which included a 15% off discount if you ordered one of each.

They arrived today, and I only opened the white deck and the PCB deck, so far. They handle noticeably differently. The white deck is clumpy out of the box, and giving it some air time has so far made no difference in that. The designs are great (as expected), and the *feel* of the cards is fine, even though they are clumpy, so I'm tempted to put this in the nightly rotation with my boys and see how they handle after a couple nights of playing with them.

The PCB has gold inks; the design is slightly different from that of the white deck, but still excellent. I like the use of metallic inks, but while they are a little reflective, they don't pop nearly as well as EPCC's and USPCC's metallic inks do. The "new card smell" was more noticeable with this deck than the white deck, and WJP's new card smell is nowhere near as pleasant as those of USPCC, Cartamundi, and even EPCC/LPCC's (non-China offerings) have become.

Nonetheless, they started off a little less clumpy than the whites, and with some air time, they started fanning better and better. I didn't get them to the point where they fan as nicely as USPCC out of the box -- do keep in mind that I'm nowhere near as skilled as many on this board when it comes to handling -- but they did get to a passable presentation. As with the whites, the handling is not unpleasant (so, far, far better than most NPCC decks and any smooth MPC decks I have tried). Again, I'm contemplating adding these to the rotation to see how they handle after some game play.

These decks, and the PCB version in particular, are definitely better than Cyberpunks were. (Speaking of which, I'm expecting to receive some reprints of those soon, because of a printing error that was caught after the first round shipped, and I'm curious if the second batch will handle any better.) I want to give these cards more of a work-out before I make any definitive conclusions regarding whether I'll back WJP decks going forward.

As I've said before, I do enjoy Ben's work; he always manages to bring together projects with cool designs. I want nothing but success for him. I'm disappointed that he hasn't had better success in talking with USPCC or Cartamundi; that's a drag. Put his designs onto decent cards, and you've got winners all the way around.

[EndersGame]

I'm revisiting this thread since I'm doing some reading up about WJPC and what people think about their decks, and writing up an article about them. There are some outstanding reports in this thread, as well as in the thread about the Bharata V2 deck.

I just want to thank all of the contributors here (and in that thread) for your excellent insights and reports. If you're interested, here's the final article:

Playing Card Manufacturer: Shenzhen Wangjing Printing Company (WJPC)