UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

Three Questions:

And please pardon me if I missed these already being asked.

1. Will their be a PDF FAQ information file made available detailing all aspects of CardLauncher?

2. When using CardLauncher with a Fulfillment Center for guaranteed project completion, what becomes of the leftover printed decks that are in the hands of the Fulfillment Center once all pledges have been fulfilled? Are they returned to the Creator of the decks, and at what cost? Are they stored by the Fulfillment center, and for what cost? Or do the overage numbers get directly sent by the Printer to the Creator, while the pledge numbers go to the Fulfillment Center?

3. How will CardLauncher gain a larger market share primarily being promoted here on United Cardists, to make it a better option than crowd-funding places like Kickstarter? I ask this because United Cardists currently has 1004 members, while very successful decks on Kickstarter have thousands more pledgers: Name of the Wind 11,000, Misc. Goods 4022, Princess Bride 2525, Federal 52 2798, Muertos 2793, and Federal 52 Part 2 2705 to name just a few.

Curious in Fullerton, California
and working on my own decks,

Will Hart

1. There is a FAQ page on CardLauncher, in progress. There is also General Guidelines section, a Creator Guidelines section, and soon to be Backer Guidelines section. Also, a Creator Handbook to assist any new designers interested in designing a deck and running a campaign. We also have The Deck Refinery service which will give assistance to any designer who requests the service.

2. I'm not sure the details of this one. I'm think it would be a good idea to give the creator the option of storing it in the warehouse for a cost, or having it sent to the creator's residence. Mike will be able to answer that.

3. Mike has been working on advertising CardLauncher to various groups, not limited to UC. There will be an ad at the 52 jokers convention, and several other groups/places with interest in card collecting. Mike will be able to give you more details on that.

Just to comment on the number of users on UC: There are 1004 registered members. If you take a look at the bottom of the page, there are almost always more "guests" online than members. Everything on UC is viewable to people who are not registered, and although I won't venture a guess towards how many we actually reach out to, I'm pretty sure it's quite a bit more than 1004.

For those of you in the "TL;DR" mindset, 1) Yes, 2) Creators and 3) (you'll have to read details on that one)...

WillHart CthulhuWho1 wrote:Three Questions:

And please pardon me if I missed these already being asked.

1. Will their be a PDF FAQ information file made available detailing all aspects of CardLauncher?

2. When using CardLauncher with a Fulfillment Center for guaranteed project completion, what becomes of the leftover printed decks that are in the hands of the Fulfillment Center once all pledges have been fulfilled? Are they returned to the Creator of the decks, and at what cost? Are they stored by the Fulfillment center, and for what cost? Or do the overage numbers get directly sent by the Printer to the Creator, while the pledge numbers go to the Fulfillment Center?

3. How will CardLauncher gain a larger market share primarily being promoted here on United Cardists, to make it a better option than crowd-funding places like Kickstarter? I ask this because United Cardists currently has 1004 members, while very successful decks on Kickstarter have thousands more pledgers: Name of the Wind 11,000, Misc. Goods 4022, Princess Bride 2525, Federal 52 2798, Muertos 2793, and Federal 52 Part 2 2705 to name just a few.

Curious in Fullerton, California
and working on my own decks,

Will Hart

Will, I've given a great deal of thought to this myself, and here's what I came up with:

1) that's a great idea, frankly - making a PDF version of the FAQ that has some logic behind the layout and flow. It's not something I had contemplated, but it's something we can do. The one major problem here is that it's a living, breathing group of topics (FAQ), so I could take a 'slice' at some point (now?) and make one. Best thing I can think of on the spur of the moment, but for now, I really can't think of any other way to make it work. Feedback? Comments?

2) Those decks belong to the creator, and of course they will go back to them, unless they direct otherwise. I can usually move them into the reseller/wholesale channel if that's what people want, but no promises, of course. The deck has to be suitable for that market, and there's really no formula that says "Yes" or "No". Failing that test, I suppose they end up back where they started: in the hands and eye of the creator.

3) A lot of thought went into the spreading of the word beyond our 1000 users, which as MagikFingerz pointed out is really more like 1500 or more, since we're always running with about as many guests as we have registered users online here at any one time. I suspect the overall coverage including casual and occasional guests is more like 2000, but that's still not enough exposure. Friday at noon, I used "Prefundia.com" to push the word out to 70,000+ CrowdFunding people, and of course not all are playing card market people, but I immediately started getting inquiries into the future direction of CL. For now, it _IS_ simply playing card decks projects, period. I can foresee in the immediate future (i.e. January?) branching out into Games and Technology - and that's the first two alternate markets I am going to target.

That leaves me in a dilemma because all of the people working on CL are laser-focused on THIS market, and I'm going to have to diversify the staff as well, in order to make a serious attempt to break into those next two markets. I've already done some "toe in the water" stuff, but not really anything major - yet. Two people that are partners have already been given the direction that on September 15th that market (Games & Technology) is going to be explored fully. Frankly, it's one of those things where I see it as having to be both, not one of the other nor can you really divide that logically up any more because of the overlap between those two markets. Technology is used more and more in games every day, and we're seeing that synergy build into new arenas as electronic games really get past the phase where they have already become so commonplace that you really can't draw a line between those two. I don't foresee us being a "KS fighter", but perhaps that is in the cards?

Anyway, I've spent far too much time making UC into a flourishing community of people. That has changed so much in the past six months (since I bought it and took over) it's just amazing to me to watch. I never really expected it to do this well, and I'm proud that I got it pushed in the right direction and it blossomed into the most used forums in the world for Cardistsy, Magicians and Collectors. Everyone knows I'm not going to mess with a good thing, but just now 'dazzleguts' and "Eoghann" took off in a new direction called "Worldwide Time Machine" in order for us to cover the one major missing piece: vintage and antique decks. We've always left that to our only major competitor, even though even they just really got that part going back in January. I'm not trying to stomp on Tom & company's toes, but it's a missing part here that is needed to have the overall perspective in one place, and I truly hope that "Worldwide Time Machine" becomes something that 'their' people can't ignore! Let's all do our parts to make it something beyond just another forum: let's make it THE BEST forum for vintage and antique cards, not just American, either. That's too much of the focus "over there", the US (and I suppose Canadian) decks as far as the vintage/antique side goes. I want it to be a truly cosmopolitan and diverse scene, inclusive rather than specialized and become the first source for vintage and antique deck collectors, which is all I did for a long time, having just 'seen' the contemporary decks scene and even KS less than a year ago.

That being said, we're never going to go too far from our roots. This is - after all - THE forum for "all things cardistry, magic and custom decks". That's not going to change, but what is going to change is the overall complexion from one of being overly specialized in those three areas to being globally aware of "All Things Playing Cards" - like I have stated several times over the past few months. "Cardistry, Magic and Collectable Decks" are our three main "meat and potato" focuses, but we're going to diversify into the few areas we don't (or haven't) covered until now, and in doing so I want it to be done without screwing up that initial market focus, and never get too far away from our roots.

I would think that those creators would promote their projects to their kickstarter backers thus getting more promotion for CL

Oh, I agree. Not sure what KS will do or how they will react.

People ignore what KS say anyway - the rule about 1 Brick = 12 items is largeley ignored now. The rule about not selling products produced outside of the current project is ignored a lot. The rule about cross promotion of other projects went completely out the window.

KS might cry over public updates that promote competitors, but there's nothing they can do about PMs.

Robert Butler has taken on a role as an advertising vendor for cardlauncher, simply because no one else has the time to do so, and it affects the function of CL in no way. For a little more information about butler's past and how he plans to move on kindly read: http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5441 Should there be more discussion about any person in particular, kindly start a thread or use the existing in the general section.

oh and btw, ive deleted all the irrelevant posts (unless you want to continue to be perceived as kids slinging mud at each other), everything that needs to be said is summarised in my sentence above. I believe that any other concerns with regards to butler may take place in its rightful thread. May business resume as per normal.

CBJ wrote:

volantangel wrote:Robert Butler has taken on a role as an advertising vendor for cardlauncher, simply because no one else has the time to do so, and it affects the function of CL in no way. For a little more information about butler's past and how he plans to move on kindly read: http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5441 Should there be more discussion about any person in particular, kindly start a thread or use the existing in the general section.

oh and btw, ive deleted all the irrelevant posts (unless you want to continue to be perceived as kids slinging mud at each other), everything that needs to be said is summarised in my sentence above. I believe that any other concerns with regards to butler may take place in its rightful thread. May business resume as per normal.

Coming from another person who has a vested interest in CL.. no?

Honestly does this even matter Jay ? If there is someone who can say that ive been mis-using my rights as a moderator, kindly step forward now.

There is a right place for everything, you now have a thread to go on about butler. Walk away jay, you are not painting yourself in a good light.

volantangel wrote:

CBJ wrote:

volantangel wrote:Robert Butler has taken on a role as an advertising vendor for cardlauncher, simply because no one else has the time to do so, and it affects the function of CL in no way. For a little more information about butler's past and how he plans to move on kindly read: http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5441 Should there be more discussion about any person in particular, kindly start a thread or use the existing in the general section.

oh and btw, ive deleted all the irrelevant posts (unless you want to continue to be perceived as kids slinging mud at each other), everything that needs to be said is summarised in my sentence above. I believe that any other concerns with regards to butler may take place in its rightful thread. May business resume as per normal.

Coming from another person who has a vested interest in CL.. no?

Honestly does this even matter Jay ? If there is someone who can say that ive been mis-using my rights as a moderator, kindly step forward now.

There is a right place for everything, you now have a thread to go on about butler. Walk away jay, you are not painting yourself in a good light.

How can you seriously say that?
I originally posted all of this in the appropriate threads, and referenced archived threads... all was deleted.
Me fighting for my right to express my opinion is wrong? Bull.

Jay, i understand what you're trying to say, and i appreciate it, but enough ia enough. No need in disrupting all these threads to make your point. Please chill.

volantangel wrote:

CBJ wrote:

volantangel wrote:Robert Butler has taken on a role as an advertising vendor for cardlauncher, simply because no one else has the time to do so, and it affects the function of CL in no way. For a little more information about butler's past and how he plans to move on kindly read: http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5441 Should there be more discussion about any person in particular, kindly start a thread or use the existing in the general section.

oh and btw, ive deleted all the irrelevant posts (unless you want to continue to be perceived as kids slinging mud at each other), everything that needs to be said is summarised in my sentence above. I believe that any other concerns with regards to butler may take place in its rightful thread. May business resume as per normal.

Coming from another person who has a vested interest in CL.. no?

Honestly does this even matter Jay ? If there is someone who can say that ive been mis-using my rights as a moderator, kindly step forward now.

There is a right place for everything, you now have a thread to go on about butler. Walk away jay, you are not painting yourself in a good light.

I'm stepping forward.

Yes, you used mod powers to delete posts that were detrimental to your business interest. I asked a very valid question (which still has not been answered) and now you have deleted it.

This is exactly the problem with mixing CL with UC.

Strag wrote:

volantangel wrote:

CBJ wrote:

volantangel wrote:Robert Butler has taken on a role as an advertising vendor for cardlauncher, simply because no one else has the time to do so, and it affects the function of CL in no way. For a little more information about butler's past and how he plans to move on kindly read: http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5441 Should there be more discussion about any person in particular, kindly start a thread or use the existing in the general section.

oh and btw, ive deleted all the irrelevant posts (unless you want to continue to be perceived as kids slinging mud at each other), everything that needs to be said is summarised in my sentence above. I believe that any other concerns with regards to butler may take place in its rightful thread. May business resume as per normal.

Coming from another person who has a vested interest in CL.. no?

Honestly does this even matter Jay ? If there is someone who can say that ive been mis-using my rights as a moderator, kindly step forward now.

There is a right place for everything, you now have a thread to go on about butler. Walk away jay, you are not painting yourself in a good light.

I'm stepping forward.

Yes, you used mod powers to delete posts that were detrimental to your business interest. I asked a very valid question (which still has not been answered) and now you have deleted it.

This is exactly the problem with mixing CL with UC.

Strag what did you ask that was not answered? Btw i do not recall deleting any of your posts, i deleted Mikes, Jays, Butlers and Joes, other mods can verify this by checking the log.

I have stated clearly why i deleted the posts. It did not reflect well on the USERS rather than the business, i have clearly stated what was going on with butler being a promotional vendor, i did not hide that fact at all. Furthermore i have linked the thread to butler in the post and encouraged users to read about it for more information about butler, i have even made sinjin's post an announcement. I am not masking his past in any way at all, and have urged butler to make things right for those that he has done wrong in the past.

Also CL is in the midst of setting up its own forum, but like everything, it takes time.

After reading this, let me know what you think i did wrong? Or is the issue simply because i have a small stake in CL that is skewing your judgement of my actions?

You didn't Kai, but Mike did.

Strag - I was seeing red myself by the end, and I don't honestly remember your question - could you ask again?

montecarlojoe wrote:You didn't Kai, but Mike did.

Strag - I was seeing red myself by the end, and I don't honestly remember your question - could you ask again?

Thanks Joe, I didnt see your post at all strag, please ask again if this is relevant to CL.

volantangel wrote:

montecarlojoe wrote:You didn't Kai, but Mike did.

Strag - I was seeing red myself by the end, and I don't honestly remember your question - could you ask again?

Thanks Joe, I didnt see your post at all strag, please ask again if this is relevant to CL.

Depends on your definition of "relevent to CL" but... I asked if Robert Butler had paid back everything he owed to people he defrauded. I think this is relevent to CL as he is helping to run the business (including being made admin of the FB page) and this is a business that is supposed to be trusted by both backers and project creators alike, especially as large amounts of money will be held in escrow. Someone who is admittedly "bad with money" and has not proven himself to be trustworthy should be vetted in an open forum to address this issue. Yes I know he is probably not directly involved with the funds, but it's reputational, no?

I see now that this was somewhat addressed in the "General" forum topic, but certainly not to my satisfaction as it is clear there is still unresolved past business and he has been extremely defensive when his past is being brought up.

BTW, I apologize for accusing you (volant) for deleting my post when it's very possible it was another mod or Mike who did so.

No worries buddy, im glad the bad air is cleared. But of course anything with particular to butler and his past should take place in the respective thread, rather than here.

But all i can say with butler's involvement with CL is strictly for promotional efforts and nothing else, we have alot of people working on the site, and butler isnt one of them. At least not to a partner's best of knowledge.

@Strag:

Robert Butler IS NOT a CL administrator. He was given this right for 5 min in order to upload advertising work that he had done but these 5 mins were enough for everyone (including me) to believe that R.B. is an administrator. He is not involved in CL in ANY other way.

Lotrek wrote:@Strag:

Robert Butler IS NOT a CL administrator. He was given this right for 5 min in order to upload advertising work that he had done but these 5 mins were enough for everyone (including me) to believe that R.B. is an administrator. He is not involved in CL in ANY other way.

Certainly hope that is indeed the case. I do wish CL the best.

Strag wrote:

Lotrek wrote:@Strag:

Robert Butler IS NOT a CL administrator. He was given this right for 5 min in order to upload advertising work that he had done but these 5 mins were enough for everyone (including me) to believe that R.B. is an administrator. He is not involved in CL in ANY other way.

Certainly hope that is indeed the case. I do wish CL the best.

It is, in fact the case. .I don't pretend to understand some of the oddities in this very small and somewhat isolated group of people in the Playing Cards industry. Sometimes I over react. Pretty normal these days, and I tend to normally control it. I have just had enough of the interference from certain people who put nothing in the way of turning every single opportunity into somehow making them money. It's amazing, frankly. The people who you think you respect turn out to be the worst amongst them. Truly odd...

After a couple of rounds talking about the merits of various pricing structure, CL along with the fulfillment (warehouse, packing, shipping) centers announces a new dawn in CrowdFunding shipping+handling charges: never again hidden or buried in the tier price, and shipping+handling charges are clearly displayed depending upon the fulfillment center chosen by each project creator, and soon you will be able to add "express" shipping for domestic packages as well. Here's how it wors: part of building every project's campaign is correctly designing each pledge reward tier. Now CL has no hidden fees, and precise costs for shipping+handling is added by fulfillment center using the number of items and weight. Three tiers even then: the US (5-digit ZIP code area), 2) North America outside the ZIP codes - Canada and Mexico mostly, and 3) RoW - "Rest of World", each having precise and no hidden charges for your point of delivery.

You asked, we deliver - Guaranteed Rewards Delivery® actually. All pledge rewards purchased from our partner system, not just decks and uncuts, but every single item except custom 1 of a kind and artist signed items are guaranteed to be fulfilled!

Our Backer Csrt® model let's you pick multiple items from each campaign, even multiples if most items (not Early Bird nor 1 per person items), and once you are done, the exact amount of the shipping+handling to your address is shown, and added to the pledge amount to be preauthorized using PayPal, WePay, credit cards, and soon Amazon Payments as well. No more hidden fees, no questions about how much of each tier is product and how much is shipping, decks go back to $6-$8 mostly and worst case, a single deck ships for $4. Up to 6 (or 8, depending on center) ships for one low price, as do bricks, and uncut sheets have special handling because we won't let them be shipped with other items.

Reset your way of thinking about "True Shipping+Handling", and expect more surprises soon!

I can understand holding excess funds until product is delivered but forcing people to use fulfillment centers is wrong in my idea. You said basically it's for those that haven't proven the ability to self fulfill shipment. With that mindset, you force anyone new to always use fulfillment centers. Couldnt it be setup where funds are held in escrow and when it comes time to ship, the creator either be able to purchase shippings supplies directly from that account or send a list of what supplies were needed and CL would order and have them shipped to the creator.

I know that sounds like a lot more work but when you talk about a creator self fulfilling costing XX.XX and a fulfillment center costing XX.XX + XX.XX, it's possible to double the amount of shipping per deck.

I could be wrong about shipping prices, just seems like a fulfillment center would increase deck prices more.

Tricky one. I guess you need to balance up that extra cost against the benefit of guaranteed delivery - which is a big selling point. There is a danger (slim, granted) that an unscrupulous person could make off with a significant chunk of funds under teh guise of "shipping costs".

I think the major paradigm shift for creators here is the idea that none of the money is really yours until the project is fulfilled.

Though I stress this is my personal take on things - I don't really have any inside track of the inner workings of the finances of Card Launcher.

Cbkimble wrote:I can understand holding excess funds until product is delivered but forcing people to use fulfillment centers is wrong in my idea. You said basically it's for those that haven't proven the ability to self fulfill shipment. With that mindset, you force anyone new to always use fulfillment centers. Couldnt it be setup where funds are held in escrow and when it comes time to ship, the creator either be able to purchase shippings supplies directly from that account or send a list of what supplies were needed and CL would order and have them shipped to the creator.

I know that sounds like a lot more work but when you talk about a creator self fulfilling costing XX.XX and a fulfillment center costing XX.XX + XX.XX, it's possible to double the amount of shipping per deck.

I could be wrong about shipping prices, just seems like a fulfillment center would increase deck prices more.

The way I understood it is that creators won't be forced to use one, but if they don't (and don't have a successful track record) they won't get the "Guaranteed Delivery" stamp.

Mike will have to correct me if I'm wrong though.

That sounds about right.

Ah I was on the right track. kinda.

Both correct, but Guaranteed Rewards Delivery® logo / promise is for projects that use both production and fulfillment partners, and not self fulfilled. Everything but the costs the project creator gets at the end of the project is available after 15 days, just like with KS. Escrow works for everything purchased through us from partners, Coins ceramic poker chips, card guards, dealer buttons, dice, Impossible Bottles, etc. Most projects get about 25% of the total collected at 15 days, some as much as 30%, but average is closer to 25%

Its all computed and very carefully itemized, with a 5% escrow add on for overages, and the main exception is that USPCC/"Bicycle" brand adds 10% to production escrow, because you have to buy them if they overprint that many. All funds not used in escrow are of course given to the creator when the campaign is "cashed out" after fulfillment.

Over 90% of the campaigns in the Hall of Shame are their not because they intended to be fraudulent, but because the didn't understand what (and how much) is required to produce and fulfill the backer rewards.

Just an update on Amazon Payments: I'm having second thoughts about that one, since I see that they changed their policy from "7 days after collected" to a full 15 days, no matter when they collected it. Just doesn't make sense: they quit collecting (or trying uncollected pledges) after 7 days, and it used to be that everything collected on the very first day (usually 90-95%) was available on the 8th day after the campaign ended - not any more. The money that was supposed to transfer into my account posted as a debit (meaning they tried to take $8000+ out, instead of put it in - which just didn't work that well. I woke up expecting to find a $12K balance only to find it more than $4K "in the red", meaning negative numbers. Fortunately, Wells Fargo is pretty quick about things like that and immediately made the funds available and reversed the transaction about 30 minutes after opening this morning. They weren't so cheery at 5:30AM when I called and they told me "it can take up to 10 days". What? Ten days? And they have me more than $16,500 the wrong way? Oh, well - we likely will do Amazon Payments, but for now it's on the cutting room floor, until we get open in 14 days and about 9 hours.

I'm a wee bit confused.

Could we have a bit context; does waiting another week for backer money REALLY matter. Knowing this is good as it allows project runners to plan properly.

What money? From Venexania Gold (guessing...). Is it an Amazon screw up or Wells Fargo (since they are now making you wait).

Amazon payments is a BIG win as far as backers go, is it really worth ditching it now because of one foul up? - thousands of KS transactions must complete every day without a problem...

montecarlojoe wrote:I'm a wee bit confused.

Could we have a bit context; does waiting another week for backer money REALLY matter. Knowing this is good as it allows project runners to plan properly.

What money? From Venexania Gold (guessing...). Is it an Amazon screw up or Wells Fargo (since they are now making you wait).

Amazon payments is a BIG win as far as backers go, is it really worth ditching it now because of one foul up? - thousands of KS transactions must complete every day without a problem...

Joe, I am just venting, it's been a long, hard day. Amazon Payments used a deposit processing request to initiate a transfer in the wrong direction, and I have had the item declines by Wells Fargo Bank management. The fact remains that any KS pledge accumulation account is basically treated as a "read only" account, and nobody - including their help desk, have EVER seen nor even heard of a single inbound transaction on any KS account, they simply never have recourse for charge backs because they make you wait so long to begin with. When I announced that we would be able to pick up AP payment processing partnership. I also noted that it "might not happen" this late in time as I already knew that the code model was frozen, and only committed changes were likely possible until after we have an income. I'm sure that we will accept Amazon Payments, I'm just also certain that - just like I announced, it will not be until at least the end of September when I am allowed to introduce new updated into the code: 60 days after we start business. I didn't write the fine contact, but I am obligated to uphold it.

Ah cool - much clearer - thanks!