UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

Drewser wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 12:59 pm

Adamthinks wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:04 am The fact that they turned the donation into a credit on their website changes that. If they had just used Kickstarter or backerkit taxes wouldn't be needed.

And to think that the reason they're using after-campaign tools is in hopes of getting additional orders...

It is my understanding that the coupon given was transferable to any products on their website and not just limited to the ks decks or accessories. Imo that completely undermines the purpose of ks.

(I Know I'm being labeled a WW apologist, but I think I just have been around them longer than anyone else to know them better and again I WISH THEY WOULD GET OFF KS AS A MARKETING TOOL AND JUST USE THE WEB SITE their existing social media presence gets them customers thats how I found them, way before the Groundskeeper campaign not KS)

Yes It was possible (the site threw an old Modular table configuration I was looking at in the same checkout basket that I had to remove)

As far as WW is concerned the purpose of KS is to drive customers to them period to preorder the things in the campaign primarily and pay the least $ possible to KS in return because they believe KS exposes more people to their products than any other option.. They discussed not doing KS any more pretty regularly and apparently have decided KS will still get them more customers than just their web site. Again...they talked about it so much that there is a video of KS people coming TO THEM to convince them to stay with KS and backerkit rather than do their own thing, at one point earlier this year there was definitely going to be a "last campaign before we move straight to our web site".

They just concluded a KS campaign where the pledge levels were $10 and $50 and didn't correspond to any particular final product (though $50 was the value of one of the product categories being offered in the campaign...but not a particular item itself (type of wood in this case)). The idea is that you take that $10 and now put in an order for $1000 on their site of the various pieces that were advertised in the campaign This has been the way how EVERY WW KS has operated they've just used backerkit to do it in the past rather than their own site. They've always tried to minimize the amount of money that ran through KS. If anything the groundskeeper campaign is the one that by far ended up with the largest percentage of the final price being charged by Kickstarter since it had actual products as pledge level and limited quantity items.

For example (as said in a video this week) their 2021(?) GM screen kickstarter campaign did $808k on KS, through Backerkit the final orders were for $6Million and there were no non campaign products available in that campaign since it ran through backerkit (v2 of this is the campaign I was just discussing it closed with about $170k officially but will probably be $1M final orders if Im guessing (we will likely never know).)

However I dont think "this will get us more sales of things we have in stock" crossed their minds. For one, some of these campaigns are designed to create work to keep people employed making the new campaign things (though this is usually said about their large furniture). However, groundskeeper isn't the first where a large portion of the products arent even things they have to make, they also do campaigns where the main items are dice. For a second they wouldn't want to sell something they have in stock and either have to ship it separately (and pay the separate shipping themselves) or sit on that item for 6 months to ship with the KS item. Nor do I think they put logic in to split orders with split shipments and corresponding shipping charges. And their CEO (Doug) has been on a tear about reducing lost revenue...they definitely would have done that if they were trying to get KS people to buy dice vaults and towers off the web site.

Do I think it will hurt their feelings if the KS process shows someone their web site and after finishing their KS order they order something else? not in the least....

I do think they’ve completely botched the post campaign phase so far especially communicating with people not used to their Normal way of running kickstarters and the especially not having the site ready in time. Hell I still don’t think they have started with international orders. Certainly haven’t sent out an update saying when or if it was ready.

Hi all,

As is the case whenever leaps are made, there have been some growing pains with this campaign. For one thing, Wyrmwood is going through the process of a playing cards campaign for the first time--a process that, in the minds of playing cards collectors, already has a definitive roadmap. Just so happens that the roadmap doesn't always line up with Wyrmwood's previous experience. They've been conducting successful ks campaigns for a decade and doing it in a very specific way. The way they are used to doing things is different to the way card collectors have been conditioned with KS campaigns. The disconnect requires/required some effort to work through. It's being ironed out and lessons are being learned.

As I've mentioned, my control over the project is limited at this point. I oversaw the design process and connected wyrmwood will all the manufacturers. A process that will see me officially STOP being involved with the decks after the production orders are made. HOWEVER, although that's the official end of my arrangement you can be sure that I will remain an ardent observer, arbiter and advocate for the backer during the entire process all the way up through fulfillment. I am in regular communication with Wyrmwood folks and I'm working behind the scenes to get things sorted out to the best of our ability.

The issues with sales tax are an unfortunate reality of 2023. Since jan 2023 new tax laws require the collection of sales taxes in all states where business is conducted. This means that moving forward you can expect that if a campaign is being compliant (which they should) then you can expect taxes to creep into the cost of rewards moving forward. This has been addressed in the KS FAQ pages too if anyone wants more info.

The european VAT situation is a similar issue of course. Wyrmwood has still tried to make this entire process as seamless and easy for the EU backer as possible. It's being finalized.

The next campaign, launching soon, the Corrupted, should benefit from a lot of the lessons learned and hopefully backers, now familiarized with the way Wyrmwood handles post campaign surveys, will also be better equipped and prepared.

Based on how well or successful Groundskeeper and Corrupted end up going for Wyrmwood, they may rehire me to produce some additional decks. Although the future remains uncertain until they can make accurate assessments of cost/profit.

I've watched them go through this with Paladin woodworking and Dispell dice, Yes you hit it on the head, at the end of the day its the profit margin on the decks, volume, and how much your time costs them (and kind of if you can be replaced easily if needed).

I watched them cancel a $2M kickstarter because it wasn't going to be $3m (or more accurately made no effort to rescue the campaign to make that $3M that they had set the funding level at because what they really wanted was more like $10M) (and then make the the product involved a low priority though the first ones should ship in November..over a year later)

So I've had a few concerned messages this past week about potential taxes on our upcoming pledge managers and campaigns and as someone who is well-versed in EU/UK VAT and tax law I would like to just clarify a few things I've seen mentioned here just to make sure everyone is on the right page.

It's not really true that we can expect to see more of this from other creators. I can promise for example that Jocu is 100% tax compliant both in the USA and EU and we do not / are not legally allowed or expected to charge sales tax.

The laws haven't changed that recently - 2018 was the first legal precedent in the USA about sales tax obligations for online stores. Before the internet you'd charge the sales tax of where your store was based. Now that customers buy online, the rules changed.

The core of the obligation for an online retailer lies in the volume of sales in an individual state - that's where the word 'nexus' comes in. In layman's terms, if you sell over $100,000 worth of goods a year, or run 200 invoices, in a single state, you must pay that state's sales tax there.

I don't think I'm revealing a secret by saying that we approach nowhere near $100,000 of sales a year in any one US state.

99% of Kickstarter creators are small businesses and individuals who I'm sure would love to turn over that kind of money, but to be liable for sales tax in all 50 states you're looking at at least a few million in yearly turnover which I doubt anyone except maybe Theory 11 can pull off.

Wyrmwood on the other hand are an enormous company. I don't doubt they are liable for these taxes. The argument about whether such huge organisations should be using Kickstarter has been done to death for as long as the site has existed, but it sounds like they're paying the taxes they're owed.

As for this becoming a regular thing on Kickstarter I very much doubt it. I don't think even Omar has to worry about such a thing for a fair while, and even if he does it will likely be one or two states that will need to pay the tax, not all 50.

One thing I would recommend is that all creators get tax advice. Any good accountant will make sure you pay as much tax as you need to and no more. But Wyrmwood are in a different universe to the average playing card campaign.

Jocu wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 12:40 pm So I've had a few concerned messages this past week about potential taxes on our upcoming pledge managers and campaigns and as someone who is well-versed in EU/UK VAT and tax law I would like to just clarify a few things I've seen mentioned here just to make sure everyone is on the right page.

It's not really true that we can expect to see more of this from other creators. I can promise for example that Jocu is 100% tax compliant both in the USA and EU and we do not / are not legally allowed or expected to charge sales tax.

The laws haven't changed that recently - 2018 was the first legal precedent in the USA about sales tax obligations for online stores. Before the internet you'd charge the sales tax of where your store was based. Now that customers buy online, the rules changed.

The core of the obligation for an online retailer lies in the volume of sales in an individual state - that's where the word 'nexus' comes in. In layman's terms, if you sell over $100,000 worth of goods a year, or run 200 invoices, in a single state, you must pay that state's sales tax there.

I don't think I'm revealing a secret by saying that we approach nowhere near $100,000 of sales a year in any one US state.

99% of Kickstarter creators are small businesses and individuals who I'm sure would love to turn over that kind of money, but to be liable for sales tax in all 50 states you're looking at at least a few million in yearly turnover which I doubt anyone except maybe Theory 11 can pull off.

Wyrmwood on the other hand are an enormous company. I don't doubt they are liable for these taxes. The argument about whether such huge organisations should be using Kickstarter has been done to death for as long as the site has existed, but it sounds like they're paying the taxes they're owed.

As for this becoming a regular thing on Kickstarter I very much doubt it. I don't think even Omar has to worry about such a thing for a fair while, and even if he does it will likely be one or two states that will need to pay the tax, not all 50.

One thing I would recommend is that all creators get tax advice. Any good accountant will make sure you pay as much tax as you need to and no more. But Wyrmwood are in a different universe to the average playing card campaign.

Thank you for this. All of what you said is 100% factual afaik. This is the reason I chose to word it as 'will creep' as opposed to a more aggressive warning. On larger campaigns, like KWP's or Ten Hundred's you may see some sales tax crop up. Wyrmwood sells a LOT of products and they are expensive. 1 Prophecy table might end up netting $45k revenue alone. So I suspect this was the main driver for taxes being collected. Especially since the way they handle the post-campaign survey seems to be by lumping the KS products in with the rest of the website sales they currently have--which is likely to put them over the limit in many states.

Also again, WW has gotten much more serious about reducing costs, they talked about the tax situation and hiring professionals to manage it (though what is sales tax vs what is just cost of business for selling to a state isnt really clear) and they owed $66k in taxes to the states this year. I have no doubt Doug made sure to insure that tax implications from KS are not falling to them any more than they have to.

Whoa, whoa, it feels everything that have been discussed over here is too much for me to handle.
So, the TLDR = Groundskeeper Playing Cards KS campaign is the very first one that have paid taxes for playing cards because the name Wyrmwood attached to them, being a company that can easily gain up to thousands of dollars by bespoke gaming furnitures?

One thing I'm certain is that I shouldn't be charged with tax when ROW shipping comes out.

I might be interested on a Corrupted deck and poker coins, but it will depend on my final shipping charge on this campaign. At this point, I'm not a fan of WW anymore.

It seems like its because WW was involved and they have enough business to create tax liabilities in multiple locales.

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:39 pm Whoa, whoa, it feels everything that have been discussed over here is too much for me to handle.
So, the TLDR = Groundskeeper Playing Cards KS campaign is the very first one that have paid taxes for playing cards because the name Wyrmwood attached to them, being a company that can easily gain up to thousands of dollars by bespoke gaming furnitures?

It's not because of the name, it's because of the amount of sales they can generate in a particular state.

Strag wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:38 am

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:39 pm Whoa, whoa, it feels everything that have been discussed over here is too much for me to handle.
So, the TLDR = Groundskeeper Playing Cards KS campaign is the very first one that have paid taxes for playing cards because the name Wyrmwood attached to them, being a company that can easily gain up to thousands of dollars by bespoke gaming furnitures?

It's not because of the name, it's because of the amount of sales they can generate in a particular state.

So, WW is in a state where this laws applied: the tax stuffs and such… and we here who aboard the Kickstarter campaign ship got affected by it… yikes… im scared of my survey later…. Could imagine worse if I retain my Prism back then

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 10:20 am

Strag wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:38 am

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:39 pm Whoa, whoa, it feels everything that have been discussed over here is too much for me to handle.
So, the TLDR = Groundskeeper Playing Cards KS campaign is the very first one that have paid taxes for playing cards because the name Wyrmwood attached to them, being a company that can easily gain up to thousands of dollars by bespoke gaming furnitures?

It's not because of the name, it's because of the amount of sales they can generate in a particular state.

So, WW is in a state where this laws applied: the tax stuffs and such… and we here who aboard the Kickstarter campaign ship got affected by it… yikes… im scared of my survey later…. Could imagine worse if I retain my Prism back then

No it's not just Mass or PA (the two places WW has factories) EVERY state (or nearly) wants sales tax for every online transaction done by their residents. We're long past the point of taxes having to do with where you have a physical presence. Even if a vendor doesn't charge them to this day I'm pretty sure there is a line on my tax return forms for "online transactions you didn't pay sales tax on" so I can pay them at that point (Im sure the compliance on that is REALLLLLLY high /s ). I was going to say I didnt know the last time I didnt pay tax online but looking at recent transactions...its not always there which I do find curious.

The video I linked above is the CEO sitting down with their accountant and tax accountant and complaining about this as well (or to be accurate how much they owe the various states because they didn't pay them before)

They did want to find a way to have everyone collect it all the time on the net, but they never managed it.

Easy to find yourself afoul of the authorities by qualifying for some other states mandatory filing requirements.

As for self compliance, I am sure that is mighty poor, and they know it - so expect they will eventually figure out a way to force the internet to do it and relieve us of that burden. The way government works I would say anytime in the next 100 years.

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 10:20 am

Strag wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:38 am

laitostarr777 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:39 pm Whoa, whoa, it feels everything that have been discussed over here is too much for me to handle.
So, the TLDR = Groundskeeper Playing Cards KS campaign is the very first one that have paid taxes for playing cards because the name Wyrmwood attached to them, being a company that can easily gain up to thousands of dollars by bespoke gaming furnitures?

It's not because of the name, it's because of the amount of sales they can generate in a particular state.

So, WW is in a state where this laws applied: the tax stuffs and such… and we here who aboard the Kickstarter campaign ship got affected by it… yikes… im scared of my survey later…. Could imagine worse if I retain my Prism back then

Its applied to the state of the receiver not the supplier, so being a RoW backer in theory there will be no taxes. Although the EU treats import vat as a bloc and will be liable I can’t see them having any reason to add tax for Indonesia as you pay that on entry, and to do this for every individual country would be an incredible amount of work.

Hot take... I think that for the cost of the decks that the tax should be built into the price. With the Prism deck probably being less than 15 $ to produce per deck, there is a huge profit margin on 85$ that the tax can be taken care of.

Drewser wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 3:37 am I think that for the cost of the decks that the tax should be built into the price. With the Prism deck probably being less than 15 $ to produce per deck, there is a huge profit margin on 85$ that the tax can be taken care of.

ohh im sure it is, but this is where we see corporate greed take over
gaining as much profits off the backs of retailers has been a due process for centuries

6k for semi-high quality table seems a bit far fetched regardless if it has a hidden poker table

I’m not so sure a short run gilded embossed box deck is under 15 to make - perhaps I’m mistaken about the cost or the deck, but really doubt it.


Regarding cost for a poker table - yup, that is a high price - more than I would pay at the moment for a poker table - but since “Pottery Barn” and everyone else sells various types for plenty-o-money if I were WW making one by hand with special features, you can bet your behind I would put a high tag on it.

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:15 am I’m not so sure a short run gilded embossed box deck is under 15 to make - perhaps I’m mistaken about the cost or the deck, but really doubt it.


Regarding cost for a poker table - yup, that is a high price - more than I would pay at the moment for a poker table - but since “Pottery Barn” and everyone else sells various types for plenty-o-money if I were WW making one by hand with special features, you can bet your behind I would put a high tag on it.



IMG_7297.jpeg

I think it's around 9$/deck for these features with WJPCC plus 5$/sleeve on a print run of at least 600-700. Maybe it is little more than 15$/deck in the end but I'm doubtful of that. Even if it was 20$/deck, that still doesn't justify an 85$ price in my mind. I believe the excuse given was, "people paid such and such for Dynastinae or whatever over priced deck so we think it's on par with the market".

Drewser wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:41 am

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:15 am I’m not so sure a short run gilded embossed box deck is under 15 to make - perhaps I’m mistaken about the cost or the deck, but really doubt it.


Regarding cost for a poker table - yup, that is a high price - more than I would pay at the moment for a poker table - but since “Pottery Barn” and everyone else sells various types for plenty-o-money if I were WW making one by hand with special features, you can bet your behind I would put a high tag on it.



IMG_7297.jpeg

I think it's around 8$/deck for these features with WJPCC plus 5$/sleeve on a print run of at least 600-700. Maybe it is little more than 15$/deck in the end but I'm doubtful of that. Even if it was 20$/deck, that still doesn't justify an 85$ price in my mind. I believe the excuse given was, "people paid such and such for Dynastinae or whatever over priced deck so we think it's on par with the market".

Do you think production costs are the only things that factor in? What about the time of the designer to design it? Is that worth nothing? What about the time of the producer to organize the project and coordinate manufacturing partners and to make sure the decks are completed correctly and on time? What about the cost of the videographer and photographer used to take all of the marketing materials? What about the cost of the prototypes that were used in the taking of those videos/photos? What about the cost of internet marketing? Social media posts? What about the cost of the fulfillment and logistics? Shipping materials costs? You think all of that is free? I'm so tired of the argument that productions costs equal REAL costs when it's clear that they don't. I shouldn't even be responding to this post that's how ignorant it was.

And frankly no producer needs justification to price anything. The only master of price is DEMAND. Groundskeepers Prisms were sold out. So as far as Wyrmwood's concerned they were perfectly priced.

Look, it's perfectly okay to not buy something. Not every product is designed with all customers in mind. For you there are $19 decks. At the end of the day, many of those who see the value in a $85 deck do so because they know not everyone can afford it. They are paying for the exclusivity of the item.

I think you're ignorant for deciding that prices should be dictated by what people are willing to pay. You can manage to profit off the Clover deck which has similar production costs and with a much lower price to consumers. Holo foil does not change the cost much from gold foil and the difference between a 700 print run and 3k print run is only a couple bucks per deck at most. I will agree to disagree with you here because it's very understandable how business works with the intent of growing through higher profit margins. No money, no business. We can all understand the want for higher profits.

Drewser wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:54 am I think you're ignorant for deciding that prices should be dictated by what people are willing to pay.

Dude, that's literally how EVERYTHING is priced.

Adamthinks wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:58 am

Drewser wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:54 am I think you're ignorant for deciding that prices should be dictated by what people are willing to pay.

Dude, that's literally how EVERYTHING is priced.

People would have paid 40,50 or 60$. They also would have paid 100,120$ and possibly more. The idea of pricing something very high with the idea of "what's the most we think we can get" doesn't sit right with me.

I can certainly agree that things like the $200 LOTR legacy boxes from KW would have been in my collection if they had been priced closer to “production cost”, and I don’t think anyone thinks that cost drove that price model. But…

Every seller gets to determine their own price, every consumer chooses their own spend - those who price too low or too high will not be around long.

Telling GW how to price is a back seat driver move - you are not going to give him a pile of money if your plan for his business fails.

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 12:36 pm I can certainly agree that things like the $200 LOTR legacy boxes from KW would have been in my collection if they had been priced closer to “production cost”, and I don’t think anyone thinks that cost drove that price model. But…

Every seller gets to determine their own price, every consumer chooses their own spend - those who price too low or too high will not be around long.

Telling GW how to price is a back seat driver move - you are not going to give him a pile of money if your plan for his business fails.

Ultimately, this isn't even my project to price. Wyrmwood took my recommendations and did their own research into the market and arrived at a structure they were comfortable with. However, you are absolutely right to point out that all of these ventures are a risk. And risks--if successfully navigated--should incur rewards. Pricing is a contentious subject in this PARTICULAR hobby. I don't see a lot of people bemoaning or collectibles niches with talk of production costs. I collect a few other things--as anyone who has watched my youtube channel could attest to. I've never for one second thought to myself--ah company X really should sell this at production prices because the retail price is just way too high! Instead I simply DON'T buy it. When enough people refuse to buy a product the market shifts. Demand will dictate supply. Rule 1 of business.

As business people we wouldn't be complying with our fiduciary duty to the company shareholders (regardless if the two are one and the same) if we didn't look for ways to maximize profit, keep costs down and grow the business. I have made some mistakes along the way--for sure. Sometimes I've priced things wrongly or too high, sometimes I've taken risks that didn't immediately pay off (trying to self-launch Goldsmith off of Kickstarter was a big one).However, every KS campaign I've been involved with has been fulfilled successfully and each has raised more money than the previous one. I hope that trend continues with Beetlebacks, Corrupted and the Grave Witness. I'm also EXTREMELY proud of my catalog of products and the stable of amazing designers that I've employed and now count among my colleagues and friends.

I mostly agree with you Omar and I 100% support any business running itself top to bottom how it sees fit and letting market forces answer any 'sins'.

BUT its also possible to have predatory pricing preying on the character traits of your customers. Whether thats being a completionist or just being impulsive or creating scarcity/FOMO.

And heck knows card collecting has a lot of completionists.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 1:39 pm I mostly agree with you Omar and I 100% support any business running itself top to bottom how it sees fit and letting market forces answer any 'sins'.

BUT its also possible to have predatory pricing preying on the character traits of your customers. Whether thats being a completionist or just being impulsive or creating scarcity/FOMO.

And heck knows card collecting has a lot of completionists.

That's true of collecting in general! I would know a thing or two about completionists... I'm one of them! I don't think I ever make business decisions from a place of predation. Marketing is the other thing I do well having spent more than 2.5 decades in television. And sometimes marketing tactics and philosophies can feel like a predatory tactic. That's because on a base level--marketing is designed to make people WANT something enough that they will spend their hard earned money on it. Some Businesses see that as creating Brand Loyalty. I was criticized by some for the placing of the Successor Prism deck behind a 'pay wall'. I didn't make that decision to try to extract more money out of customers. I did it because of several reasons. 1) I wanted the customer experience to be special and elevated. I think most if not all of the Sarcophagus customers will tell you that the experience of receiving their sarcophagus was elevated and hopefully very satisfying. The fact that they got a very limited exclusive deck was a reward to those people. The prism deck was created for them. The unfortunate reality is that others wanted to have the deck too without buying the sarcophagus and viewed the box set as something extraneous. TO ME THE BOX SET WAS THE EXPERIENCE. 2) I also understood the collector desire to 'complete' the line so to speak. But I knew that If i opened the deck up to the general market that some people would buy the prism deck and only the prism deck. This would be problematic for the Box Set customer who wanted the full experience and was willing to pay for it and now could not because the prism decks were sold out. So that meant I had to reserve those decks for those patrons/backers.

In the end I learned some valuable lessons from that campaign. I've already discussed the much friendly roll-out of rewards for the Beetle Backs campaign in the thread dedicated to that project.

I never pledged for the Sarcophagus but I will say it looked very, very nice.

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 12:36 pm I can certainly agree that things like the $200 LOTR legacy boxes from KW would have been in my collection if they had been priced closer to “production cost”, and I don’t think anyone thinks that cost drove that price model. But…

Every seller gets to determine their own price, every consumer chooses their own spend - those who price too low or too high will not be around long.

Telling GW how to price is a back seat driver move - you are not going to give him a pile of money if your plan for his business fails.

I haven't told anyone how to price their decks. I've only given my opinion on the high costs. I never said that decks should be at production costs or implied they should be very close either. Obviously if people will keep spending that much on a deck then they will continue to be priced higher and higher until the consumers reject it.

Luxury brands cater to a different clientele, and they have their own price points. GW has made it clear that is where he wishes to be.

GandalfPC wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 3:21 pm Luxury brands cater to a different clientele, and they have their own price points. GW has made it clear that is where he wishes to be.

Thanks for explaining it. All makes sense now. You're the best