Heretic cards by Lorenzo

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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by rousselle »

I used to work in the printing biz (I still have an interest in a shop that manufactures printed, domed product labels). Here's the skinny:

Back in the days before digital printing became viable, printing presses (of just about any technology) would require set-up and test runs before they would produce a given job according to spec. Colors would be mixed, screens opened (or allowed to close up a little), impurities revealed and removed (you know... like a strand of hair on the print screen/plate). If someone ordered 1000 units to be printed, you'd burn though maybe 100 units just getting everything calibrated and fine tuned just at the outset. But it could be more, and it could be less. And, for a multi-color job, where registration was even more of a factor, you'd have those first few failures for every single pass through the system.

So, if a customer wants 1000 units, you'd have to start with 1000 + X in order to absorb the slop of setting up the job, but you could never be sure how much of that slop you would actually need. If you went through the whole process of producing the job, and in the end came up a little short in your total run (say, you ended up with 950 usable pieces), you didn't want to have to set up everything all over again to just catch those last few missing pieces. Almost all of the work was in the set-up. You'd be doing the job twice at that point for what was such a small percentage under run.

Likewise, if you ended up with a few extras, your customer typically wouldn't want you to be hanging on to the overruns (nor would you necessarily want to hang onto them), because the customer wanted full control over the finished product. If I order 1000 copies of an item, and tell the world, "Hey, world, there's only a thousand of these!", but in the meantime, the printing company is sitting on an extra hundred or so of the finished product, that could put me, as the customer, in a bind.

(I had that happen once when a friend of mine and I had designed some t-shirts to sell. The print house printed them on the wrong color. But when we said we didn't want to pay for them, he said, that's fine, I'll just sell them to the college kids down the street. We were screwed. We ended up buying the "bad batch" off his hands at a severe discount so as to not allow our intellectual property out of our control like that. Oh, and we never did business with that print shop again.)

So, the tradition in the printing industry became that as long as you came within 10% of the target, the printer wouldn't have to re-do the job, and the customer would pay for what was delivered.

The thing is, now digital printing is much, much less set-up intensive, and generally much more consistent, as well. Color registration and stamping/cutting are computer controlled for most processes. For shorter runs, it's much cheaper to go digital for most printing processes, although for very large runs, the older printing techniques can typically still produce more product at a faster pace, once the set-up is completed. A house like USPCC produces *so much* in high volumes, I'd be shocked if they could abandon their analog printing techniques. But, newer shops who cater to smaller orders (like, say, the Taiwan factory that services LPCC and EPCC) can go all-digital. For shorter runs, they will not only be cheaper, but substantially more precise.

As such, for the newer and smaller shops, the 10% margin of error is going away as an allowable business practice. Underruns are easily addressed; overruns are unnecessary.

This is, of course, a simplification, and accounts in general for a wide variety of differing printing techniques that have their own specific considerations. But, you get the point. :)
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Stockholm17 »

Hi Rousselle

that´s right, set-up, calibration, impurity, mistakes, colors etc. I know, and I understand.
But that´s their problem. Just put this in the initial quotation, not that I have to PAY the exceeding production.

So if I ask 3500, give me 3500 with a price that includes all the problems and the production issues. Burn the rest since the cost was already covered by the quotation of 3500. I dont care if uspcc has a sloth in the control room trying to push the stop button. I pay for 3500 and I want more or less 3500. not +-10%.
And what about the boxes? same problem?

On my zenith I feel no powderor dust..
Anyway, back Heretic only if you like it... or just follow the campaign with 2 dollar pledge and see if something interesting pops out, so you might wanna pledge for a deck or more :)
time to sleep, cheers
Lorenzo
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by wwpierce »

Thanks Rouselle for the info! Very informative!

And to Lorenzo..I absolutely will be backing Heretic! Good Luck!
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May (wap)

Unread post by Cbkimble »

I'm gearing up for Heretic myself.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May (wap)

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Cbkimble wrote:I'm gearing up for Heretic myself.
Yep, me, too! Curiously my avatar on KS changed today and it looks a lot (a lot!) like Lorenzo's! ;-)

Thanks for the great explanation about printer overrun / underruns rousselle, it must be "share your knowledge day". I just posted a similar message about Kem™ decks and identification in the "Look What I Added..." thread...
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

DragonSoul wrote: - not just a tuck swap or different color back (like Aquila).
"Aquila" LE and standard are different front (face / pips & courts) design wise, not a color change...
>Mike<
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Yashi »

Well Lorenzo is getting my money. USPCC or EPCC, art is art. If you don't want to touch it, a more expensive option would be an uncut sheet.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by rousselle »

Designkiller wrote:Hi Rousselle

that´s right, set-up, calibration, impurity, mistakes, colors etc. I know, and I understand.
But that´s their problem. Just put this in the initial quotation, not that I have to PAY the exceeding production.

So if I ask 3500, give me 3500 with a price that includes all the problems and the production issues. Burn the rest since the cost was already covered by the quotation of 3500. I dont care if uspcc has a sloth in the control room trying to push the stop button. I pay for 3500 and I want more or less 3500. not +-10%.
And what about the boxes? same problem?

On my zenith I feel no powderor dust..
Anyway, back Heretic only if you like it... or just follow the campaign with 2 dollar pledge and see if something interesting pops out, so you might wanna pledge for a deck or more :)
time to sleep, cheers
Lorenzo
Yeah, I should probably mention that this is an explanation, but not an excuse. Business practices evolve over time to address the best ways for the customers and manufacturers to do business with each other. As technology changes, so, too, should their corresponding business practices. And yet, the customs tend to lag one or two steps behind the reality. And so it goes.

But it occurs to me to mention something I didn't think to point out in my previous post: because of the differences in the technology of how Very Large Scale jobs are printed versus Medium Scale and Small Scale jobs, you'll never get an outfit like the LPCC/EPCC printer who produces something *exactly* like USPCC. The methods of production are simply different. However, it is my hope that these smaller, nimbler outfits will continue to improve their product to the point where different does not necessarily make one substantially preferable over the other.

I, for one, am totally fine with the digital production methods LPCC/EPCC's printer is using. Truth be told, there are things I like about MPC's printer and, for that matter, the Shanghai printer of Nauticals/Global Titans fame (or infamy, as be your choice.) While I'm still getting used to the digitally produced cards, they are, indeed, growing on me. And lucky for me, I do not appear to be susceptible to the icky feeling that some are reporting with the coating on the Zeniths. (I realize that everybody is different on this score.) While I hope the Taiwan printer continues to work on this issue, it is not a show-stopper for me as a customer.

Which is my long-winded way of saying that I'll back Heretic for the same number of decks regardless of whether it's printed by our favorite USA printer, or Taiwan. Your mileage may vary, but wow, that is some awesome art, and I gots to have me some.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Just a heads-up for everybody: if you want a small number of Requiem decks now is the time to get in touch with Lorenzo. We're getting ready to shift gears into the Heretic campaign here "really soon now", and once he does that he will only take orders for bricks of those decks. The uncut sheets are already on lock-down in Lorenzo's vault, and he's pretty much done with delivery of Requiem signed art, uncuts and Gran Riserva decks, so beyond that (a few days to a week max) I can't make any guarantees.

I'll let him give details, but for now I just wanted anyone here that wanted them not to have to pay the markup for post-campaign retail pricing.

"Let's get ready to rumble!" with the Heretic campaign coming REALLY soon to a kickstarter near you!
>Mike<
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
Show Us Your Cards!


Our UC2021 Decks entitled
"Odd Fellows"
by Lorenzo Gaggiotti / @Stockholm17
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UC2019 "Seventh Annual Decks"
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Magic_Orthodoxy »

Thanks Lorenzo! You're the man! Love everything! Lots of video love coming your way soon

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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Maddest Hammer »

Mike, shouldn't it be "Lets get Heretical"? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by RSLancastr »

Maddest Hammer wrote:Mike, shouldn't it be "Lets get Heretical"? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Alex, what is "the least popular 80's song recorded by Olivia Newton-John"?
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Maddest Hammer wrote:Mike, shouldn't it be "Lets get Heretical"? :lol: :lol: :lol:
I think we are both already there... ;-)
>Mike<
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They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by DragonSoul »

Mike Ratledge wrote:
DragonSoul wrote: - not just a tuck swap or different color back (like Aquila).
"Aquila" LE and standard are different front (face / pips & courts) design wise, not a color change...
Yeah, I worded it poorly. I probably should have put the parenthesis after the word design but, if you read the whole sentence that's actually what I was trying to say - that Aquila's 2nd deck is a different design. "if there is more than one design - not just a tuck swap or different color back (like Aquila)


And to be clear, I'm still backing Heretic. I just won't be buying more decks than I ever have on any project before like I was originally planning.

Yashi wrote:Well Lorenzo is getting my money. USPCC or EPCC, art is art. If you don't want to touch it, a more expensive option would be an uncut sheet.
That's actually something to seriously consider Yashi. I don't usually buy uncuts because I just don't have the wall space to display all the ones I want properly. However, I do love this design so much that I might get one. Is EPCC's layout/dimensions different from USPC's?
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

DragonSoul wrote:
Mike Ratledge wrote:
DragonSoul wrote: - not just a tuck swap or different color back (like Aquila).
"Aquila" LE and standard are different front (face / pips & courts) design wise, not a color change...
Yeah, I worded it poorly. I probably should have put the parenthesis after the word design but, if you read the whole sentence that's actually what I was trying to say - that Aquila's 2nd deck is a different design. "if there is more than one design - not just a tuck swap or different color back (like Aquila)


And to be clear, I'm still backing Heretic. I just won't be buying more decks than I ever have on any project before like I was originally planning.

Yashi wrote:Well Lorenzo is getting my money. USPCC or EPCC, art is art. If you don't want to touch it, a more expensive option would be an uncut sheet.
That's actually something to seriously consider Yashi. I don't usually buy uncuts because I just don't have the wall space to display all the ones I want properly. However, I do love this design so much that I might get one. Is EPCC's layout/dimensions different from USPC's?
Expert (and Legends) PCC uncut sheets are a 6 tall by 9 wide format - which means the uncut artwork without the border (image only) is 22 1/2" wide and 21" tall. USPCC uncut sheets image size only (7 high x 8 wide format) is 20" wide and 24 1/2" tall. Of course you add about 1" or slightly more on each side if you want to show the alignment bars, etc. Some people do, some don't. There is a great thread on "Framing / Hanging Uncut Sheets" here: http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3756" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and I am just getting started trying one of the newer "floater" frames that shows both sides of an uncut - I'll post pix when I am finished (in that thread). Just a heads-up for you and everyone else: Lorenzo is doing something different with the uncuts this time, and they are only $25 for Heretic Lux - plus, assuming that the stretch goal is met you will also get a Heretic Noctis ("from the night") uncut as well for the same price - meaning you're be getting a pair of uncuts for only $25! That's quite a change from what most everybody else is doing and shows just how much of a mark-up most uncut sheets have. They tend to be a profit center of their own... Lorenzo is always going to give you "Quality over Quantity", but in this particular case, you get both!
>Mike<
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
Show Us Your Cards!


Our UC2021 Decks entitled
"Odd Fellows"
by Lorenzo Gaggiotti / @Stockholm17
Coming soon: AKA
«Eighth Annual Decks»


UC members help maintain Portfolio52
THE Playing Card Database Online
Contact ecNate for details and access


UC2019 "Seventh Annual Decks"
by Montenzi Design
Funded 207% on KS: HERE


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Insert disclaimer here...
All information posted as fact is accurate at the time of posting to the best of my knowledge.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by DragonSoul »

Thanks Mike! I thought I had seen it mentioned somewhere before - probably in that thread. LOL!

And for that deal, I will definitely be adding uncuts! :P
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Cbkimble »

Mike Ratledge wrote: Just a heads-up for you and everyone else: Lorenzo is doing something different with the uncuts this time, and they are only $25 for Heretic Lux - plus, assuming that the stretch goal is met you will also get a Heretic Noctis ("from the night") uncut as well for the same price - meaning you're be getting a pair of uncuts for only $25! That's quite a change from what most everybody else is doing and shows just how much of a mark-up most uncut sheets have. They tend to be a profit center of their own... Lorenzo is always going to give you "Quality over Quantity", but in this particular case, you get both!

Thats awesome. I'm definitely in. Come on 'later in May' lol.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Stockholm17 »

guys, when you will see the reward of the uncuts you will freak out of joy eheh
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

Ah, my favorite kind of uncuts - cheap ones :mrgreen:
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Yashi »

Designkiller wrote:guys, when you will see the reward of the uncuts you will freak out of joy eheh
I'm freaking out of excitement already. Sounds like there are going to be some great deals.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by nECr0MaNCeD »

MagikFingerz wrote:Ah, my favorite kind of uncuts - cheap ones :mrgreen:

Agreed..... ah, I read "women" instead of "uncuts".... still agree though. :drool:
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

OK, this is a cross-posting in "Requiem", but just to make sure everybody is on the same page, today was the last day for small orders of Requiem decks. That project is DONE and we're going to target next Sunday (25-May) which is one week from today for the Heretic decks launch, which could slip or even move up a day, but that's the plan as of noon my time and 17.00 in Stockholm.

And yes - we ARE ready to get Heretical!!!
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"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
Show Us Your Cards!


Our UC2021 Decks entitled
"Odd Fellows"
by Lorenzo Gaggiotti / @Stockholm17
Coming soon: AKA
«Eighth Annual Decks»


UC members help maintain Portfolio52
THE Playing Card Database Online
Contact ecNate for details and access


UC2019 "Seventh Annual Decks"
by Montenzi Design
Funded 207% on KS: HERE


>>> UC Deck Sales <<<


Insert disclaimer here...
All information posted as fact is accurate at the time of posting to the best of my knowledge.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo: launches on KS 25-May

Unread post by Maddest Hammer »

:lol:
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by sinjin7 »

Mike Ratledge wrote:Just a heads-up for you and everyone else: Lorenzo is doing something different with the uncuts this time, and they are only $25 for Heretic Lux - plus, assuming that the stretch goal is met you will also get a Heretic Noctis ("from the night") uncut as well for the same price - meaning you're be getting a pair of uncuts for only $25! That's quite a change from what most everybody else is doing and shows just how much of a mark-up most uncut sheets have. They tend to be a profit center of their own... Lorenzo is always going to give you "Quality over Quantity", but in this particular case, you get both!
I always maintained that the single most over rated cost in the playing cards industry is the pricing of uncut sheets. I'm really happy to hear that Lorenzo is resisting the greed for profit and charging a more reasonable price for uncuts. This makes me want to support him even more. I hope other designers will see this and follow suit.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by volantangel »

sinjin7 wrote:
Mike Ratledge wrote:Just a heads-up for you and everyone else: Lorenzo is doing something different with the uncuts this time, and they are only $25 for Heretic Lux - plus, assuming that the stretch goal is met you will also get a Heretic Noctis ("from the night") uncut as well for the same price - meaning you're be getting a pair of uncuts for only $25! That's quite a change from what most everybody else is doing and shows just how much of a mark-up most uncut sheets have. They tend to be a profit center of their own... Lorenzo is always going to give you "Quality over Quantity", but in this particular case, you get both!
I always maintained that the single most over rated cost in the playing cards industry is the pricing of uncut sheets. I'm really happy to hear that Lorenzo is resisting the greed for profit and charging a more reasonable price for uncuts. This makes me want to support him even more. I hope other designers will see this and follow suit.
Amen, kudos to Lorenzo. He has run one of the best campaigns on ks imo
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo: KS 25-May @ ????

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

volantangel wrote:
sinjin7 wrote:
Mike Ratledge wrote:Just a heads-up for you and everyone else: Lorenzo is doing something different with the uncuts this time, and they are only $25 for Heretic Lux - plus, assuming that the stretch goal is met you will also get a Heretic Noctis ("from the night") uncut as well for the same price - meaning you're be getting a pair of uncuts for only $25! That's quite a change from what most everybody else is doing and shows just how much of a mark-up most uncut sheets have. They tend to be a profit center of their own... Lorenzo is always going to give you "Quality over Quantity", but in this particular case, you get both!
I always maintained that the single most over rated cost in the playing cards industry is the pricing of uncut sheets. I'm really happy to hear that Lorenzo is resisting the greed for profit and charging a more reasonable price for uncuts. This makes me want to support him even more. I hope other designers will see this and follow suit.
Amen, kudos to Lorenzo. He has run one of the best campaigns on ks imo
Heretic_Uncut_Sheets_$25!.png
Heretic_Uncut_Sheets_$25!.png (10.47 KiB) Viewed 876 times
Advice is a dime a dozen these days, but when you have someone that knows what collectors want to bounce things off, it surely helps! I think Lorenzo's Requiem campaign was one of - if not THE - best campaigns run as far as keeping the backers in the loop and fully aware of every aspect of what goes on "behind the scenes"! This next project is going to stretch the limits of what can be done, and I can assure you - we have quite a few cards up our sleeves - pun intended this time... 8-)

With that tease, we're going radio silent for a couple of days to tie up loose ends and other than an announcement as to the exact time (and date?) we'll likely be pretty quiet (on this front, anyway). See you all next Sunday - time will be posted here first - as always.

To begin the Heresy: (to be added to but I don't want to spoil all the twists and turns)
  1. The Jacks are women!
  2. The King of diamonds has a sword instead of an ax.
  3. The King of Clubs has an ax instead of a sword.
  4. The King of Hearts is not suicidal.
The next thing you know this still photo will be replaced by the video now in the editing phase:
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>Mike<
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They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo! KS later in May

Unread post by Cbkimble »

sinjin7 wrote:
Mike Ratledge wrote:Just a heads-up for you and everyone else: Lorenzo is doing something different with the uncuts this time, and they are only $25 for Heretic Lux - plus, assuming that the stretch goal is met you will also get a Heretic Noctis ("from the night") uncut as well for the same price - meaning you're be getting a pair of uncuts for only $25! That's quite a change from what most everybody else is doing and shows just how much of a mark-up most uncut sheets have. They tend to be a profit center of their own... Lorenzo is always going to give you "Quality over Quantity", but in this particular case, you get both!
I always maintained that the single most over rated cost in the playing cards industry is the pricing of uncut sheets. I'm really happy to hear that Lorenzo is resisting the greed for profit and charging a more reasonable price for uncuts. This makes me want to support him even more. I hope other designers will see this and follow suit.
Agreed. But the lower the price, the higher the demand. The higher the demand, the more reasonable prices for uncuts will be.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo: launches on KS 25-May

Unread post by Eoghann »

So excited for this deck it's not even healthy. That and whatever Lotrek is cooking up. :lol:
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo: launches on KS 25-May

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Eoghann wrote:So excited for this deck it's not even healthy. That and whatever Lotrek is cooking up. :lol:
You think he's only cooking on one burner? heheh - I've got everyone thoroughly confused, eh? Lorenzo is working on two decks, one now, one later. Lotrek is as well, the first will be the 'secret' I've been taunting "Something Wicked This Way Comes" almost immediately followed by his Dark Venexiana, which he's already fired a flare about.

Stay tuned - more news at 11... (well, maybe later around the end of the month for Lotrek - he's still in Italy, but should be back in Athens on the 25th, according to my notes)
>Mike<
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
Show Us Your Cards!


Our UC2021 Decks entitled
"Odd Fellows"
by Lorenzo Gaggiotti / @Stockholm17
Coming soon: AKA
«Eighth Annual Decks»


UC members help maintain Portfolio52
THE Playing Card Database Online
Contact ecNate for details and access


UC2019 "Seventh Annual Decks"
by Montenzi Design
Funded 207% on KS: HERE


>>> UC Deck Sales <<<


Insert disclaimer here...
All information posted as fact is accurate at the time of posting to the best of my knowledge.
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Re: Heretic playing cards by Lorenzo: launches on KS 25-May

Unread post by Yashi »

Wow, great deal! But they're not signed and they're unlimited?
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