UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

UC: 1) This deck costs too much. 2)Its doing lousy because its not on Kickstarter. 3) Its just a Tally-Ho Deck. 4) Its not a multi-deck/tuck campaign.
vs
JR: 1)Ran on a new platform without any problems. 2)People are paying for a deck I really wanted to make. 3) Eliminate the KS 5% margin. 4)I'm guessing he also cut down the transaction costs too. 5)No worries about backers who's pledges aren't captured. 6)Double the revenue of any DeckStarter campaign so far. 6)Got the money lots faster. 7). Maybe less hassle than any previous campaign. 8). Further vertical integration for his business.

You guys can bitch, but Jackson knows what he's doing.

Idk, just because people don't like it, doesn't mean they're necessarily bitching. Someone is wondering why it's not raising as much funds and people are responding by giving possible reasons. Are we just supposed to all say, "oh, it's perfect!" otherwise, we're bitching?

IIRC these decks were supposed to be affordable "staple" decks from the outset. That didn't happen. I'm not sure these would have even done well on Kickstarter for the price and what you're getting regardless of Jackson's cache. They're nice looking but they don't stack up to his previous fare and shouldn't be priced as such. This from a huge Jackson fan.

Why didn't I pledge ? Simple, Jackson kept a better design from the public and deliberately gives us a watered down design just so he can release a limited edition further down the road. This design isn't the one that got the ooohs and ahhhs, it's the one with the blue and yellow.

Widdee wrote:IIRC these decks were supposed to be affordable "staple" decks from the outset. That didn't happen. I'm not sure these would have even done well on Kickstarter for the price and what you're getting regardless of Jackson's cache. They're nice looking but they don't stack up to his previous fare and shouldn't be priced as such. This from a huge Jackson fan.

My sentiments exactly. They are a nice change to the Tally-Ho but not worth the cost to me. In the end people will only buy something if they see the value in it. Either way it was a good start for Jackson and I am waiting to see the other Tally-Ho design.

@Bamabenz... Expressing ones opinion is not bitching. Also, keep in mind that negative feedback is valuable. Getting upset over it and dismissing it is throwing away an opportunity.

volantangel wrote:Why didn't I pledge ? Simple, Jackson kept a better design from the public and deliberately gives us a watered down design just so he can release a limited edition further down the road. This design isn't the one that got the ooohs and ahhhs, it's the one with the blue and yellow.

I can agree with that but that's not exactly the first time something like this happens. Maybe he should have keps secret the limited edition deck.

PlayingCardz wrote:

volantangel wrote:Why didn't I pledge ? Simple, Jackson kept a better design from the public and deliberately gives us a watered down design just so he can release a limited edition further down the road. This design isn't the one that got the ooohs and ahhhs, it's the one with the blue and yellow.

I can agree with that but that's not exactly the first time something like this happens. Maybe he should have keps secret the limited edition deck.

Of course this isnt the first time something like this has happened. But this isnt about a blinged out tuck box, or a different back design. Its just having more colours on the back design ! Clearly this isnt about giving the community the best anymore.

maybe the circleback is too traditional in a market that is increasingly customised and induvidual?

This IS the first time i've seen a crowd funder (if we call it that) release one tuck at a time in different projects.

We know there is a red back and a blue/yellow back (and who knows maybe a red/yellow back), and I imagine they will all have seperate projects. Anywhere else blue and red would be available from teh get go and the special version as a stretch goal. Perhaps this piecemeal approach is another reason funding is reletively lacklustre.

tl;dr: There are many reasons to think that this is a big success for Kings Wild Project/Jackson Robinson

montecarlojoe wrote:This IS the first time i've seen a crowd funder (if we call it that) release one tuck at a time in different projects.

We know there is a red back and a blue/yellow back (and who knows maybe a red/yellow back), and I imagine they will all have seperate projects. Anywhere else blue and red would be available from teh get go and the special version as a stretch goal. Perhaps this piecemeal approach is another reason funding is reletively lacklustre.

Lackluster? I think it's the opposite. I think it's a cash cow.

#1 One deck @ $25,000 pre-order seems successful to me. Look at how many decks aren't even coming close to reaching $10,000 on Kickstarter recently. And the total is actually more in terms of real money because he doesn't have to pay any Kickstarter/Amazon fees.

#2 You could even look at this blue deck as a lead in to the limited edition version, which he will probably jack up the price and sell out. Right now there are 750+ people who backed it on KingsWildFunded. There are enough people that will buy up all the blue & yellow limited edition that is coming.

#3 This deck can/will be reprinted in the future. And so will the different color variations. Must be nice to have the equivalent of a regular artist's successful Kickstarter project when every he chooses between big ticket projects.

#4 Since he's completed the Kings Wild Standard court cards etc, there's not a lot of extra work for future projects. Recolor or different back designs...basically, this is probably the start, or at least lays the groundwork, for his most successful time spent vs. dollar ratio projects. Recolor and different back designs at $20,000+ a pop with 4-5 months of funding up front with zero risk and a limited edition of each afterward...sounds pretty good. Laughingly good business model.

#5 Also seems like a good outlet to add many of the overprinted decks as promotional material/bonuses for bigger orders. He offered free Silver Certificate decks for people who ordered bricks. That's a nice little bonus that doesn't cost him anything, and probably pushes a few people to make bigger purchases.

#6 Next time, Jackson might find it more profitable to release 2 decks at once. The people complaining about the shipping will be happier and most people who buy one color will probably buy the other color. The people who bought a gross of one deck this time, will probably buy a gross of each color next time, as often price isn't an issue for these people.

For his first campaign outside Kickstarter, I think he did well and is primed to start milking recoloring and raking in money à la Elusionist, without having to print anything and take a risk beforehand.

You know there are things wrong with the world when people start complaining about Jackson's creations.

Although I am with Volant, the only reason I haven't pledged is because Im waiting for the blue/gold one to turn up.

TGunitedcardists wrote:tl;dr: There are many reasons to think that this is a big success for Kings Wild Project/Jackson Robinson

#2 You could even look at this blue deck as a lead in to the limited edition version, which he will probably jack up the price and sell out. Right now there are 750+ people who backed it on KingsWildFunded. There are enough people that will buy up all the blue & yellow limited edition that is coming.

Obviously it's successful... but compared to his other projects, it's on the lower end, though he did admit that he wasn't looking to set record on this one, so maybe he was expecting that. I think the point most people were trying to make was that it could have been more successful.

Federal 52 Part 1: $149,156 raised/2 decks = $74,578 per deck (I'm only counting 2 decks because the other two are tuck swaps)
Federal 52 Part 2: $188,005 raised/4 decks = $47,001 per deck (I'm only counting 4 decks because the other two are tuck swaps)
Sherlock Holmes + Moriarty v2 Edition: $120,550 raised/5 decks = $24,110 (I'm only counting 5 decks because the LE Bakerstreet is a tuck swap) *
Independence: $116,525 raised/4 decks = $29,131 per deck

* I think the Sherlock deck was a little hurt by the printing error. If he didn't launch a second campaign to correct his mistake, it would have been:
$100,288 raised/4 decks = $25,0072 (on par with the Tally-Ho as of the writing of this post)

Also, 750+ people did not back the Tally-Ho. That's just how many of each tier were claimed (people can claim a tier multiple times). If you look at the top, it shows the exact number of backers, and as of the writing of this post, it's 365 backers. That number of backers is also on the lower end.

Federal 52 Part 1: 2,798 backers
Federal 52 Part 2: 2,705 backers
Sherlock Holmes: 1,499 backers (I'm not counting the Moriarty v2 campaign cuz idk how many are repeat backers)
Independence: 1,394 backers

And, just because I like crunching numbers so much, average spent per backer:

Federal 52 Part 1: $149,156 raised/2,798 backers = $53
Federal 52 Part 2: $188,005 raised/2,705 backers = $69
Sherlock Holmes: $100,288 raised/1,499 backers = $66
Independence: $116,525 raised/1,394 backers = $83
Tally-Ho: $25,071/365 = $68

So, on one hand, while the average amount people are spending on his projects isn't going down, the number of backers per project and the funds raised per deck has declined. I didn't count KS fees or Amazon fees, or the fact that additional orders have been made via BackerKit so of course these are just approximates.

When I say lacklustre I mean in comparison to his KS campaigns -
Fed 52 took $148,000 for 4 decks - Approx $37,000 per deck.
Fed 52 II took $188,000 for 5 decks and a very ltd 6th - Approx $47,000 per deck.
Independance took $116,000 for 4 decks - $29,000 per deck
Sherlock Holmes $120,000 for 5 decks (notcounting the reprint as seperate) - $29,000 per deck

$25k for one is a little short of the mark...



The creations are fine - beautiful, no argument there. But the WAY they are being presented to fans and nethusiasts is important and a different issue.

Joe, for Sherlock I'm getting approx. 24k per deck.

Sher wrote:Joe, for Sherlock I'm getting approx. 24k per deck.

Haha time to re-check that calculator joe lol, yea its about 24k

JokerzGamez wrote:You know there are things wrong with the world when people start complaining about Jackson's creations.

Although I am with Volant, the only reason I haven't pledged is because Im waiting for the blue/gold one to turn up.

There are a couple reasons large companies and corporations spend massive amounts of money giving away free stuff to get you to take a survey. First, and least important is for marketing. Second is to find out what people like and what they are doing right, and far more importantly, what people don't like and what they need to fix or address. That being said....

The vast majority of people here are collectors. Spending the same amount for a mass market "staple" deck that they pay for limited run decks just didn't make any sense. It says a lot about Jackson, his designs and reputation that this project did well. Not as well as others but plenty well enough to be called a success.

bamabenz wrote:You guys can bitch, but Jackson knows what he's doing.

Jackson knows what he's doing? Really?

JR: Hey UC, to make up for my non-functional, un-playable Moriarty deck, I'll make it up to you somehow. I know, I'll print another v.2 deck (you know, so you can shovel more money my way). To help ease the sting, I'll never ever sell the v.1 deck (you know, because its non-functional and un-playable) except this one time (you know, so you can shovel more money my way) and hand sign each deck and put a special seal on it (you know, so I can dump this excess stock that won't sell anyways).

UC: Uh, where's your signature, JR? And what's with this crappy sticker?

JR: I never promised to hand sign the decks to anyone...else (you know, except you guys here at UC). I decided to change directions (you know, without telling you guys) and not sign any. Sorry. I'll make it up to you somehow. I know, everyone who wasn't promised a signed deck won't get one, and everyone who was promised a signed deck (you know, only you guys here at UC) won't get one as well (you know, 'cause I have to treat everyone equally). Holy Buddha, I'm really trying to figure out how to respond to you guys. How dare you bitch at me!

A few weeks pass

JR: Hey UC, I'm selling the KW Tally Ho's (you know, so you can shovel more money my way) on my shiny new pre-ordering site (you know, the one dressed up as crowd-funding). Now I never called this a staple deck. Huh? What? Oh, I did call it a staple deck here at UC? Thanks for pointing that out, Strag. OK, well, I'm super excited to be able to bring you guys a fully custom deck at a lower price point of $8 (you know, plus $4 shipping). I'm using my very own fulfillment company for shipping and this is my very own crowd-funding site (you know, so that if there's any money being shoveled, its all coming my way). And these are unlimited, so anyone who wants one can get one (you know, so you can shovel more money my way). Am I not a swell guy for bringing you a cheaper fully custom deck?

UC: Wow, a fully custom deck from JR for $8! Gee whiz, JR is such a swell guy. I'm gonna start shoveling money JR's way and put my pre-order in for....waaait a minute! All of JR's fully custom, limited decks with totally blinged up tuck boxes were $12 shipped. These fully custom, non-limited KW Tallys are...$12 shipped. And from the pictures on your pre-sale site, the tuck boxes don't even look that blinged up. And you're not releasing the red version (c'mon, we all know its coming) at the same time so we have to pay your very own shipping and fulfillment company even more money. And after this pre-sale is over, you're going to charge even more money for this unlimited, staple deck? Say it ain't so, JR! Can you give us an explanation why this $12 unlimited deck is cheaper than your $12 limited decks on Kickstarter?!?

JR: ***crickets chirping***

Obviously the above is meant to be satire, but I sincerely hope this isn't Jackson knowing what he's doing...

TGunitedcardists wrote:Lackluster? I think it's the opposite. I think it's a cash cow.

I think Sher already did an excellent job running the numbers to prove it isn't up to Jackson's past standards on Kickstarter. The market has a way of correcting, and people will begin to realize $12 for an unlimited deck is not worth it, plus I doubt he's going to see very robust sales of this deck after his campaign ends when he's going to charge even more for this unlimited deck.

Jackson is a talented guy, so I'm sure his sales on his site for future decks will be decent, but perhaps not great. I guess only time will tell if he would've had more success on Kickstarter instead of his own "crowd-funding" site. What is definite is that he over-priced these KW Tally Ho's (which were supposed to be his cheaper custom decks) and this hasn't performed to his past standards on Kickstarter.

Speaking for myself and not as a mod, that was a funny read.

Eoghann wrote: Speaking for myself and not as a mod, that was a funny read.

Thank you, thank you very much, I appreciate it. I'll be here all week, folks!

sinjin7 wrote:

Eoghann wrote: Speaking for myself and not as a mod, that was a funny read.

Thank you, thank you very much, I appreciate it. I'll be here all week, folks!

Go figure, sinjin. I'll just mosey on back to my corner and keep observing...

Can somebody get sinjin7 a "Post of the Year" award or something?

Yeah $24. I was sneaking in a post at work in between a million other things

Still point made.

I stand in awe, sinjin... Darn, I wish I could have put that together without sounding like an arse about it! Simply beyond words here, after re-reading it one more time...

Well said Sinjin. To say I couldn't have put it better myself is an understatement. Hopefully Jackson reads my post about the value of negative feedback and takes it to heart. He can see this for the valuable feedback it is, grow and learn and come out better at the end or ignore it and find out the hard way why it is so valuable. I love his art and hope he does see the comments here for what they are... The wants, needs and desires of the people who want to support his art and efforts.

sinjin7 wrote:

Eoghann wrote: Speaking for myself and not as a mod, that was a funny read.

Thank you, thank you very much, I appreciate it. I'll be here all week, folks!

thats funny!

sinjin7 wrote:

Eoghann wrote: Speaking for myself and not as a mod, that was a funny read.

Thank you, thank you very much, I appreciate it. I'll be here all week, folks!

And the crowd goes wild...

You know, if he really wanted to make it up to the UC members, he should get a list of members buying his tally ho decks and sign them. That would definitely be a start.

Cbkimble wrote:You know, if he really wanted to make it up to the UC members, he should get a list of members buying his tally ho decks and sign them. That would definitely be a start.

Why would he do that? He's already said that the 10% of his customer base that UC represents doesn't matter to him.

And a big +1 to what Sinjin said, agreed 100%, there is much truth spoken in jest.

That was a very entertaining post and I agree with all of it.

This started as a post in the Deck$tarter thread, but I derailed a bit so I'm reposting the whole thing here.

volantangel wrote:Honestly I don't care what crowd funding really means, I simply don't like the fact that the platform does not allow you to change your pledges freely (emailing them for a manual change isn't freely in my book)

This is it for me too. They can call it whatever they like, but when there's a "campaign" and you "pledge", I want to be able to change that pledge with complete freedom until that campaign ends. Calling it something that doesn't work the same way as what everyone is used to seems like a bad move; people generally don't like change.

Also, for me to buy a (future) "staple" deck in a single campaign/pre-order doesn't make any sense. I like the KW Tally Ho, but when I buy staple decks I expect to be able to buy it with whatever else I want from that same seller/store (or a reseller). So I'll buy it WHEN it becomes a staple, and if I get one that says "2nd printing" or something I'll live with that. Of course, if the price really does go up to $12 after the campaign, I'll probably never buy it because it's definitely not worth $12+ shipping. And I'll live with that too, I have a few bricks of Q1 Ohio Tallies to keep me satisfied. C'est la vie! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯