The Hive Deck - New King's Wild Deck Now Available

[skuphundaku]

Too bad there's no s to replace with a dollar sign in either Mike Ratledge or Card Launcher (intentional perhaps? Smart move, I suppose ).

You could go international and use the EUR sign (€): Mik€ Ratl€dg€ & Card Launch€r

[volantangel]

Soooo.. 3 days and still in stock ? Guess the demand isn't sky high..

[PlayingCardz]

Yup, more than 600 left ...

[sinjin7]

It was a beautiful deck with full customization, it should've been very popular. Jack$son/King$wild and Brendan could've easily printed 2000 decks of each color and sold them out at $12 shipped. If he eventually sells out 1600 Hive decks at $22 shipped, he grosses $35,200.00. If he sold out 4000 decks at $12 shipped, he would've grossed $48,000.00 and would've retained our good will instead of having the $ associated with his name.

I understand the argument it would've been more expensive and riskier to print out 4000 decks instead of 2000, but it would've have been double the cost due to the price breaks that come with quantity. There is risk in all aspects of life, sometimes you just have to grab the bull by the horns and ride. If they thought the design of the deck was good enough (and its very good), they should've had the confidence to go for it in higher quantities. Jack$son has grossed well over half a million dollars in Kickstarter sales alone, I suspect he could've easily absorbed the cost/risk with the Hive and would've enjoyed the higher reward that comes with higher risk.

At the end of the day, the Hive will eventually sell out, but it won't change the fact that the deck was sadly over-priced and that the strategy was flawed. I think Jack$son fancies himself as this purveyor of elite, super high end playing cards priced way above the market norms. Look how far that got D$D. I don't think the playing card market and demographic will support many $20+ decks. Maybe as ultra limited, super blinged out decks in conjunction with cost effective standard versions, you'll see a place for these $20+ decks (which has been Jack$on's basic KS model). But the market is getting way too saturated and on the verge of bursting, and there are too many better priced, high quality alternatives for us to choose from that's going to prevent Jack$on's current model from truly succeeding to its potential.

[Paul Middleton]

Soooo.. 3 days and still in stock ? Guess the demand isn't sky high..

I had typed a few paragraphs but it wiped it when I posted for some reason

Essentially I said that I think the rate they are selling is pretty good for a smaller company which has a smaller reach and I'm sure they are happy with it. I know I fully expect LUXX to take longer to sell than people keep telling me (we are a small company in a smaller market, we will have customers from the US for this but that doesn't mean it's going to sell out in days), we've planned for sales which are realistic- which is what I would expect them to have done.

I think they've sold very nicely so far if that's all is let

[Strag]

It was a beautiful deck with full customization, it should've been very popular. Jack$son/King$wild and Brendan could've easily printed 2000 decks of each color and sold them out at $12 shipped. If he eventually sells out 1600 Hive decks at $22 shipped, he grosses $35,200.00. If he sold out 4000 decks at $12 shipped, he would've grossed $48,000.00 and would've retained our good will instead of having the $ associated with his name.

I understand the argument it would've been more expensive and riskier to print out 4000 decks instead of 2000, but it would've have been double the cost due to the price breaks that come with quantity. There is risk in all aspects of life, sometimes you just have to grab the bull by the horns and ride. If they thought the design of the deck was good enough (and its very good), they should've had the confidence to go for it in higher quantities. Jack$son has grossed well over half a million dollars in Kickstarter sales alone, I suspect he could've easily absorbed the cost/risk with the Hive and would've enjoyed the higher reward that comes with higher risk.

At the end of the day, the Hive will eventually sell out, but it won't change the fact that the deck was sadly over-priced and that the strategy was flawed. I think Jack$son fancies himself as this purveyor of elite, super high end playing cards priced way above the market norms. Look how far that got D$D. I don't think the playing card market and demographic will support many $20+ decks. Maybe as ultra limited, super blinged out decks in conjunction with cost effective standard versions, you'll see a place for these $20+ decks (which has been Jack$on's basic KS model). But the market is getting way too saturated and on the verge of bursting, and there are too many better priced, high quality alternatives for us to choose from that's going to prevent Jack$on's current model from truly succeeding to its potential.

In general I agree but I shouldn't think it's a failure just because it hasn't sold out yet. It will eventually and Jackson et al are simply making sure they are the ones to get the bulk of the value instead of the aftermarket. It's all about supply and demand. There is becoming a glut of "limited" decks on the market and it will become harder and harder to move decks unless they are truly compelling.

I really live the Hive design, but I'm not pyaing $34/pair plus international shipping for them.

[Eoghann]

Conspiracy theories aside, I'm glad (to a point) that the deck is priced as it is. They're pretty much selling it at aftermarket price (in normal circumstances) so they're reaping the rewards usually reserved for aftermarket sellers. Heck, I'd probably do the same considering how lucrative the damn KW decks are. Once these hit eBay, they're probably be priced at $30, $40 or even $50...and that's much harder to sell.

Because let's face it, who honestly buys decks by the brick to actually keep and not sell for exorbitant amounts or trade for other stuff? I'd be shocked to see some rich hoarder among us who is not interested in making a few extra bucks. The only brick I've ever bought not intended for trading has been Grotesque (for obvious reasons ).

I'm starting to think that Jackson's vision, greed, call it whatever you want will unwittingly help correct the market because it's forcing us to buy only the decks we need and want, and not buy by the brick just to turn a profit.

Could be that I'm just reading to much into it and it's simply a case of "let's milk these suckers until their tits get sore".

[vasta41]

I'm starting to think that Jackson's vision, greed, call it whatever you want will unwittingly help correct the market because it's forcing us to buy only the decks we need and want, and not buy by the brick just to turn a profit.

My theory is that the market tipped. Think about it- when playing cards were first being designed on KS $10 shipped was on the high end of average pricing. The '13 UC deck was what, 8$? For a fully customised box etc. Slowly and surely over the years deck prices have gone up. Sure, some of the customisations got a little better but not in relation to prices. People started spending a little more until a $12 KS deck (shipped) became the norm. Designers were charging more because people were paying more. And they were happy to do so UNTIL the prices continued to climb at a steeper rate than the quality of the decks. In other words, deck prices were/are higher without any new or stunning innovations to justify the price. People started digging their heals in the ground and said, "whoa, this just isn't worth it."

Obviously there is market saturation nowadays causing selective buying but I further believe that playing card prices have plateaued. Sure, every once in a while a Zenith or Mana or Venexiana gold deck will come around and be worth the money by pushing the limits of playing card innovation but in general, I think Jack$on pushed the limits of what people will spend on a customized deck just a bit to far. And to me the resistance is a sign of the people determining what they/ we are willing to spend this day and age.

[Eoghann]

That's definitely happening. And I'm glad it is. Decks have been inching higher and higher in price and I'm happy people are taking a step back before jumping in. Force them to evaluate what's worth buying and not just happily hand over their credit card at something that seems mildly interesting.

The designers aren't entirely guilty of this though. We've created this monster and we can't contain it. We're the ones buying bricks of Blue Bloods and Empires that cost $120 and breaking even by selling only two decks. When designers see these decks that they sold for 12 - 20 bucks sell for hundreds of dollars in the aftermarket, well that just seems only fair to charge a little extra next time around. "You're just gonna sell them anyways...".

While the collectors who genuinely buy for themselves are greatly affected, it's the scalpers' fault we're in this state as well.

If only we'd take our fair share.

Just look at ourselves. We raise a HUGE stink when "we're only printing 1000" turns into "we're only printing 1500". How does that affect you? It only affects you if you're tying to resell it later on. That's the only "value" that's changing. Aftermarket profits.

"It cost me $13 dollars....now that it's 1500 and not 1000 I'll have to sell it for $50 bucks instead of the $75 I had planned. Aw shucks. That designer is one greedy bastard. He should burn in hell for all eternity. I'm taking my credit card elsewhere!"

[flyers3003]

The designers aren't entirely guilty of this though. We've created this monster and we can't contain it. We're the ones buying bricks of Blue Bloods and Empires that cost $120 and breaking even by selling only two decks. When designers see these decks that they sold for 12 - 20 bucks sell for hundreds of dollars in the aftermarket, well that just seems only fair to charge a little extra next time around. "You're just gonna sell them anyways...".

While the collectors who genuinely buy for themselves are greatly affected, it's the scalpers' fault we're in this state as well.

If only we'd take our fair share.

Just look at ourselves. We raise a HUGE stink when "we're only printing 1000" turns into "we're only printing 1500". How does that affect you? It only affects you if you're tying to resell it later on. That's the only "value" that's changing. Aftermarket profits.

"It cost me $13 dollars....now that it's 1500 and not 1000 I'll have to sell it for $50 bucks instead of the $75 I had planned. Aw shucks. That designer is one greedy bastard. He should burn in hell for all eternity. I'm taking my credit card elsewhere!"

Extremely well said Eoghann! I don't know when I've agreed more with a post. As someone who only collects for collecting, I know its getting harder and harder for me to enjoy this hobby because of the increasing costs. There is definitely blame to be put on the designers, but buyers are just as guilty if they're/we're still willing to buy. As much as we yell at designers for being greedy, the aftermarket re-sellers are often making an even bigger profit per deck.

[StanKindLee]

You nailed it... scalpers suck, whether playing cards or concert tickets.

[sinjin7]

Because let's face it, who honestly buys decks by the brick to actually keep and not sell for exorbitant amounts or trade for other stuff?

I know a lot of cardists who buy decks they really like by the brick because they become user decks or performance decks. I suspect there are some magicians out there that do the same. I generally use two decks every time we hold our weekly poker night. By the end of 6 hours of poker play, those two decks are pretty much shot. I personally buy decks I really like by the brick, partly for the collection, and mostly because I use my decks for their intended purpose.

When designers see these decks that they sold for 12 - 20 bucks sell for hundreds of dollars in the aftermarket, well that just seems only fair to charge a little extra next time around. "You're just gonna sell them anyways...".

I don't have that much sympathy for designers who jack their prices in anticipation of aftermarket sales mark ups. Not every deck is going to achieve super high aftermarket mark ups. You blame scalpers, but when designers jack their prices to compensate for aftermarket sales, they in essence become their own scalpers. Plus, all the designer has to do is keep a couple of hundred decks for their personal reserve so they can still cash in on any aftermarket inflation. This is what Jack$son does on his KW site anyways, and this is what D$D basically does on Art of Play.

[badpete69]

Because let's face it, who honestly buys decks by the brick to actually keep and not sell for exorbitant amounts or trade for other stuff? ".

That is an interesting question Eoghann... All of the decks I have sold this past year were from decks I had bought 2 or 3 of. When I buy a brick, it is to keep as a collectible. I have about 10-15 bricks in my collection (so I do not get them often) and i do not see myself selling any of the decks from them anytime soon. Actually if anything i would try to sell it as a brick whenever and if ever I decide to sell.

[Widdee]

I buy bricks when I really like the deck- and I've never sold a single deck in my life with no current plans to do so. As I've mentioned in other posts, cards make perfect gifts for friends and relatives and you get a better price by the brick.

[Eoghann]

Didn't mean to imply that everyone who buys a brick is inherently a scalper. There are quite a lot who buy for legitimate reasons such as you guys. For utility reasons or just because you like them very much. Heck, the decks I have most of have never sold or traded nor do I intend to (Lotrek, Lorenzo and Ovdiyenko products for example). Literally the only brick I'll have to keep is Grotesque and the Heretic brick that's coming.

The ones I refer to are the ones who decide to "trim their collection a little bit" and offer 3 bricks of Federal 52s or whatever. That to me isn't hoarding for passion but for profit. If you like them so much to buy so many, you wouldn't be getting rid of them all.

I don't have that much sympathy for designers who jack their prices in anticipation of aftermarket sales mark ups. Not every deck is going to achieve super high aftermarket mark ups. You blame scalpers, but when designers jack their prices to compensate for aftermarket sales, they in essence become their own scalpers. Plus, all the designer has to do is keep a couple of hundred decks for their personal reserve so they can still cash in on any aftermarket inflation. This is what Jack$son does on his KW site anyways, and this is what D$D basically does on Art of Play.

I'm not saying it's OK for them to do that. I'm not comfortable at all paying $36 for two decks. But I'd be less comfortable paying double that later on. That's only when we're talking about stuff I like. Do I want to be paying $60 for Blue Bloods, Empires? Nope. How about $125 for a Backer Street LE? Absolutely not. The over inflation of aftermarket decks is disgusting. And the ones who get shafted the most are the new guys who aren't scouring the web on a daily basis for decks or the ones who came late to the crowdfunding party.

This whole situation isn't as cut and dry as we want it to be. There is no one side to blame and point fingers to. There are several elements that amount to this mess:

- Designers asking 3 to 4 times the actual production cost of a deck.
- Designers creating intentional rarities of the same deck with multiple tuck swaps/seals/stickers.
- People hoarding and selling decks at over inflated prices.
-

I'm sure there are other elements but I can't think of them for now. But my point is we've all played a part in this one way or another.

I'm at the office...I should be working.

[Lotrek]

This whole situation isn't as cut and dry as we want it to be. There is no one side to blame and point fingers to. There are several elements that amount to this mess:

- Designers asking 3 to 4 times the actual production cost of a deck.
- Designers creating intentional rarities of the same deck with multiple tuck swaps/seals/stickers.
- People hoarding and selling decks at over inflated prices.
-

I'm sure there are other elements but I can't think of them for now. But my point is we've all played a part in this one way or another.

May I add to the list?

-Collectors who buy anything is named "rare" without thinking how and why is it rare.

[Eoghann]

yup, that's a good one. I'd love to hear what some designers think about all this.

Rare gets tossed around freely nowadays, when a sticker makes all the difference.

[chach]

yup, that's a good one. I'd love to hear what some designers think about all this.

Rare gets tossed around freely nowadays, when a rare custom numbered hand applied sticker makes all the difference.

FTFY

[StanKindLee]

This deck artist/producer did a KS deck which went for 3 to 4 times its production cost... and while the project funded well & all expectations were reached, nobody complained about price, and frankly, I wouldn't want to put in all the time for anything less.

I didn't call my deck rare, but limited due to the 500 deck run - I didn't need to charge more because of, more hoping the limited number would make the deck special to the backers which supported the project.

I'm curious to know how many of you company folk have walked into your bosses office and demanded that your salaries be cut so that the company's customers can get the price break they want.

Bottom line, anyone complaining about the high prices yet willing to pay when they don't have to because "the collection comes first" is as much of the problem as anything else mentioned... IMO.

[Bikefanatic]

One deck for me was $23.50 so I wonder for 2 decks, would you still have to pay $5.50 or more for shipping? Also when these suppose to ship out?

[UtterFool]

The ones I refer to are the ones who decide to "trim their collection a little bit" and offer 3 bricks of Federal 52s or whatever. That to me isn't hoarding for passion but for profit. If you like them so much to buy so many, you wouldn't be getting rid of them all.



I'm not saying it's OK for them to do that. I'm not comfortable at all paying $36 for two decks. But I'd be less comfortable paying double that later on. That's only when we're talking about stuff I like. Do I want to be paying $60 for Blue Bloods, Empires? Nope. How about $125 for a Backer Street LE? Absolutely not. The over inflation of aftermarket decks is disgusting. And the ones who get shafted the most are the new guys who aren't scouring the web on a daily basis for decks or the ones who came late to the crowdfunding party.

This whole situation isn't as cut and dry as we want it to be. There is no one side to blame and point fingers to. There are several elements that amount to this mess:

- Designers asking 3 to 4 times the actual production cost of a deck.
- Designers creating intentional rarities of the same deck with multiple tuck swaps/seals/stickers.
- People hoarding and selling decks at over inflated prices.

I am sorry Eoghann but I feel this argument is getting a bit ridiculous.
You seem to want to say that someone should not profit in any way off of something becoming valuable... or in other words collectible.

I am not going to argue about the legitimacy of actual "Scalpers" i.e people who buy a rare item, usually going around the limits by creating extra accounts to only go and sell it at higher prices. Therefore possibly denying the item to someone who may actually want it.

But now you are talking about selling decks that are limited solely because not a lot of people bought them when they originally had a chance. You are saying this is wrong and basically saying these people are terrible people because they are charging so much money to people who got into the hobby after the event and did not have the chance to get it.
This logic is flawed.
That is how collecting works.
Do you expect Jerry's nuggets to sell for the same price as when they were sold in the gift shop
or how about one of the early 1700s hand painted french decks, Should they sell now for the few cents that one paid for them back when they were new? ( I wasn't alive back then , but I feel I have the right to pay what they did)
By your logic they should.

People who bought a brick or two or three of a deck that is now selling for $50+ a deck are lucky not scalpers.

Many people help fund there hobby by trying to sell extra decks they bought.

Federal 52, Uusi Blue blood, Empire, The Grid and others are selling for more and are rarer because not as many people wanted them when they first came out . The people who bought bricks of these did not limit the supply, in fact those people made the deck less rare and probably kept down the numbers... or god forbid actually got the deck funded and therefore are the main reason any of us have it now.

I was in for the Blue Blood deck. It was the most beautiful deck I had seen at the time (and I might still consider it so). I bought 18 decks, the most decks I had bought in one go. I wanted to use them for playing cards and give as presents. I never got around to giving them away and now I still have 9 unopened and 1 signed deck that I still own. I have sold one for about $40 and now plan (when Uusi releases their last deck ) to sell 2 entire Uusi sets. I hope to make a decent amount on this, hopefully enough to pay for what I spent on the Uusi merchandise in total. Does this make me a scalper? Is this unfair to Linnea and Peter? No

Is Jackson charging too much for the Hive deck. Probably yes.
If it sells for more after it is sold out, is that a bad thing. No

That is the story of collecting you try to collect things when they are cheaper so that you don't have to pay through the nose when they aren't. But unless you get in at the ground floor you will never have a chance to get everything at the cheaper price and nor should you be able to.

Ok I have rambled on enough.

[nECr0MaNCeD]

Didn't mean to imply that everyone who buys a brick is inherently a scalper. There are quite a lot who buy for legitimate reasons such as you guys. For utility reasons or just because you like them very much. Heck, the decks I have most of have never sold or traded nor do I intend to (Lotrek, Lorenzo and Ovdiyenko products for example). Literally the only brick I'll have to keep is Grotesque and the Heretic brick that's coming.

The ones I refer to are the ones who decide to "trim their collection a little bit" and offer 3 bricks of Federal 52s or whatever. That to me isn't hoarding for passion but for profit. If you like them so much to buy so many, you wouldn't be getting rid of them all.

I don't have that much sympathy for designers who jack their prices in anticipation of aftermarket sales mark ups. Not every deck is going to achieve super high aftermarket mark ups. You blame scalpers, but when designers jack their prices to compensate for aftermarket sales, they in essence become their own scalpers. Plus, all the designer has to do is keep a couple of hundred decks for their personal reserve so they can still cash in on any aftermarket inflation. This is what Jack$son does on his KW site anyways, and this is what D$D basically does on Art of Play.

I'm not saying it's OK for them to do that. I'm not comfortable at all paying $36 for two decks. But I'd be less comfortable paying double that later on. That's only when we're talking about stuff I like. Do I want to be paying $60 for Blue Bloods, Empires? Nope. How about $125 for a Backer Street LE? Absolutely not. The over inflation of aftermarket decks is disgusting. And the ones who get shafted the most are the new guys who aren't scouring the web on a daily basis for decks or the ones who came late to the crowdfunding party.

This whole situation isn't as cut and dry as we want it to be. There is no one side to blame and point fingers to. There are several elements that amount to this mess:

- Designers asking 3 to 4 times the actual production cost of a deck.
- Designers creating intentional rarities of the same deck with multiple tuck swaps/seals/stickers.
- People hoarding and selling decks at over inflated prices.
-

I'm sure there are other elements but I can't think of them for now. But my point is we've all played a part in this one way or another.

I'm at the office...I should be working.

I agree for the most part. I came late to the party and have paid too much on a couple occasions. I have learned to curtail this with some success.

I would like to point out that not everyone selling cards qualifies as a scalper. There are a number of aftermarket sellers that charge fair prices for decks post campaign. I got my Fed 52 Black Reserve deck for $30. They were $45 on the KW site, $50 on others and $50-$100 on Ebay.

[Sher]

Based on UtterFool's response, it think we need to clarify that there is a distinction between certain things:

1. Buying an unlimited deck (like the Fed 52s which didn't have a limit so long as you got in on the KS on time) vs. Buying a limited deck (print run is explicitly stated and there will be no more, no less, example of which is the Hive deck)

2. Buying bricks of cards for personal use vs. Buying bricks of cards with the initial intent to profit from it.

Okay, you can actually mix and match these to the following:

1. Buying an unlimited deck for personal use:
- In my opinion, since the deck is unlimited and buying bricks doesn't affect anyone else's chances of getting them, this is fair.
- NOTE: UtterFool's example of the blue bloods would fall under this. Even though he now plans to sell them, this wasn't his initial intent.

2. Buying an unlimited deck with the initial intent to profit from it: an example would be buying bricks of fed 52 for resale later.
- Again, since the deck is unlimited and buying bricks doesn't affect anyone else's chances of getting them, this is fair. Since the intent is for profit, people may not like this practice.
- But, since most unlimited decks on KS usually don't go through a second run, late comers might be grateful to these resellers for providing them an opportunity to buy decks they missed out on... It's the price that is the point of contention.
- However, how much someone charges for the deck in the aftermarket is not only determined by the seller but the consumer and the demand for them, so if someone charges $50 and no one takes the bait, the seller will be forced to lower it. So to me, buying an unlimited brick for profit is not bad, and if it so happens to sell for a crazy high price, since it takes both the seller and consumer to make a sale, you can interpret this as either both the seller and consumer's fault, or no one's fault.

3. Buying a limited deck for personal use:
- Because the deck is limited, buying in large numbers means that the person has taken decks that could have gone to others who also want it.
- A little controversial, because some people think that limited decks should be distributed to as many people as possible.
- An argument can also be made that people are free to do what they like with their own money and the purchase is fair because that person worked to get that many decks (saved up money, stayed up all night in anticipation of launch, etc.)

4. Buying limited decks with the initial intent to profit from it:
- Again this means that the person has taken decks from others who may also want it
- It is even more controversial because of the intent to profit from it later, which means selling it for the highest price the market will allow.
- Again, some people think that limited decks should be distributed to as many people as possible, and the argument can be made again that the person is free to do what they like and they worked for it.
- However, it's even more controversial than #3 because of the intent to profit. While late comers might be grateful for the opportunity to purchase, there is the high price, plus the fact that others may resent the seller because the bulk purchase of a limited deck prevented someone else from purchasing the deck for the initial low price as opposed to aftermarket prices.

[Cbkimble]

Maybe a good CL idea would be to limit limited decks until the last 3/6/12 hours of the campaign. At that point, open it up to whoever wants more of hasn't been pledged for.

[Eoghann]

@UtterFool: I don't mean that at all. It'd be insane NOT to sell our decks for some kind of profit considering the current aftermarket prices. I'm not saying we need to "give the new guys a break" and give the rare decks away cheap, because in more than one occasion I've seen it turn around and they sell it for even more or immediately have it up for trade. Some say "business is business" but that doesn't make you feel any less of a chump.

I remember one of my first purchases here in UC was from sinjin. A Blue Bloods no less. He sold it to me at a high but fair price. I still remember to this day his warning: "I'm giving you this price because you're part of the community and we have an unspoken agreement that you won't turn around and sell this for a much higher price"...and something like he'll be keeping his eyes on eBay to make sure.

What I'm trying to get at is to be fair. But I'm starting to see that this argument is turning moot because we all have wildly varying moral compasses (as Sher has pointed out in quite a few real situations), rendering further arguments pointless. I'm not at all saying my compass is right or anyone else's is wrong...I'm saying that they point to different Norths.

[Norbie]

.... be fair ...

It be nice, but seriously?

Oh, and somebody please remind me not to make any money of my Sybil reserves.

[Eoghann]

Me trying to be less cynical.

Probably easier to come to terms that we are all inherently selfish in varying degrees.

[Mike Ratledge]

Maybe a good CL idea would be to limit limited decks until the last 3/6/12 hours of the campaign. At that point, open it up to whoever wants more of hasn't been pledged for.

Well, we can do a lot of things, suggest that they make them available unlimited to existing backers during the final 12 hours or even 24 hours, but we just can't force them to do so, it's up to the artist, designer or campaign manager if it's someone who has hired an artist or designer to realize his vision or create the decks from his direction.

I think it's a really good idea, but it's just not something we could insist that they do. Maybe think about strongly suggesting that they go that way, but we simply cannot 'enforce' such a thing, it would at most be our "informed suggestion" that they do so.

[MagikFingerz]

Maybe a good CL idea would be to limit limited decks until the last 3/6/12 hours of the campaign. At that point, open it up to whoever wants more of hasn't been pledged for.

Well, we can do a lot of things, suggest that they make them available unlimited to existing backers during the final 12 hours or even 24 hours, but we just can't force them to do so, it's up to the artist, designer or campaign manager if it's someone who has hired an artist or designer to realize his vision or create the decks from his direction.

I think it's a really good idea, but it's just not something we could insist that they do. Maybe think about strongly suggesting that they go that way, but we simply cannot 'enforce' such a thing, it would at most be our "informed suggestion" that they do so.

You're right, Mike, and that's how it will be with anything. Cbkimble probably just meant that CL could "facilitate" such a thing for the designers who (are smart enough to) decide to do it

[Widdee]

Maybe a good CL idea would be to limit limited decks until the last 3/6/12 hours of the campaign. At that point, open it up to whoever wants more of hasn't been pledged for.

Well, we can do a lot of things, suggest that they make them available unlimited to existing backers during the final 12 hours or even 24 hours, but we just can't force them to do so, it's up to the artist, designer or campaign manager if it's someone who has hired an artist or designer to realize his vision or create the decks from his direction.

I think it's a really good idea, but it's just not something we could insist that they do. Maybe think about strongly suggesting that they go that way, but we simply cannot 'enforce' such a thing, it would at most be our "informed suggestion" that they do so.

The problem I see with waiting until that last X number of hours is that I probably wouldn't pledge in the first place. Limiteds are one of the biggest attractions to me as a collector. If they're restricted to the KS or whoever crowdfunding membership or in total number printed then I know they will be worth the purchase. If I waited until the last few hours to pledge and missed out on a limited I might pick up a few standards from the campaign but my interest wouldn't be near as high.

Also, if a designer waits to release the limiteds to the final hours of a campaign he or she is going to be losing a lot of excitement and momemtum that could have been generated throughout the campaign.