UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

As an outsider (I didn't pledge) looking in, I have to wonder...what will happen to the rest of the money? He raised X dollars for the cards. Calculated that there would be Y profit, and spent that on his loans. Will supposedly be giving refunds from the (X-Y=Z) Z pool of cash, but only to folks sending a SASE, and before a certain date. Let's plug in some hypothetical numbers to think this through.

Say that the campaign raised $16,000, which is "X"
He calculated the profit "Y" as being $5,000 (my number, just to make the calculation easy)
That would leave, for the sake of argument, $11,000, which would be "Z"

If people asking for their money back total 50% of backers, and he actually makes good on that "promise", wouldn't that still leave $5,500 in his pocket? Keep in mind that this is a "What if" rhetorical scenario based on what he said. Did he in fact spend every penny on the loans? Way more than just the "calculated profit"?

Am I missing something here?

Instead of saying that he screwed up, and will do whatever it takes to make things right with every backer, he's trying to make a small hoop to jump through, in a short window of time.

not that I'm any better than anyone else, but here's what I would do. I would promise to refund all monies to all backers. Period. This would have to be under the backer understanding that I had spent a quantity of the money, so I would have to fund that out of my pocket, and it would take time. An I'll pay you back, but please be patient kind of thing. Reimburse the smallest backers first until all money is exhausted, then get a second job to raise money to pay back the larger backers that would be left. Doing so would make things right with the largest amount of folks as quickly as possible. Work hard until every penny is paid back. People make idiotic decisions, and fail at their goals. What cannot be done is to screw people over, many times in the process.

Don't make people send a SASE. There were 605 backers. That's $350 in stamps and envelopes. You screwed up, suck it up and buy some stamps and envelopes. Do EVERYTHING in your power to make things right for ALL backers, no matter how long it takes. Don't make an end time for a claim. Don't screw these people again, keep the remaining monies, and feel OK about things.

It's not rocket science...DO THE RIGHT THING!!

BiggerDee wrote:As an outsider (I didn't pledge) looking in, I have to wonder...what will happen to the rest of the money? He raised X dollars for the cards. Calculated that there would be Y profit, and spent that on his loans. Will supposedly be giving refunds from the (X-Y=Z) Z pool of cash, but only to folks sending a SASE, and before a certain date. Let's plug in some hypothetical numbers to think this through.

Say that the campaign raised $16,000, which is "X"
He calculated the profit "Y" as being $5,000 (my number, just to make the calculation easy)
That would leave, for the sake of argument, $11,000, which would be "Z"

If people asking for their money back total 50% of backers, and he actually makes good on that "promise", wouldn't that still leave $5,500 in his pocket? Keep in mind that this is a "What if" rhetorical scenario based on what he said. Did he in fact spend every penny on the loans? Way more than just the "calculated profit"?

Am I missing something here?

Instead of saying that he screwed up, and will do whatever it takes to make things right with every backer, he's trying to make a small hoop to jump through, in a short window of time.

not that I'm any better than anyone else, but here's what I would do. I would promise to refund all monies to all backers. Period. This would have to be under the backer understanding that I had spent a quantity of the money, so I would have to fund that out of my pocket, and it would take time. An I'll pay you back, but please be patient kind of thing. Reimburse the smallest backers first until all money is exhausted, then get a second job to raise money to pay back the larger backers that would be left. Doing so would make things right with the largest amount of folks as quickly as possible. Work hard until every penny is paid back. People make idiotic decisions, and fail at their goals. What cannot be done is to screw people over, many times in the process.

Don't make people send a SASE. There were 605 backers. That's $350 in stamps and envelopes. You screwed up, suck it up and buy some stamps and envelopes. Do EVERYTHING in your power to make things right for ALL backers, no matter how long it takes. Don't make an end time for a claim. Don't screw these people again, keep the remaining monies, and feel OK about things.

It's not rocket science...DO THE RIGHT THING!!

yes thats what you would do because you are a good person with a sense of right and wrong. scammers lack this. thats why they are what they are. All i know is i filed my complaint with the IN Attorney general, and the FBI and kickstarter and ask all other backers to do the same.

what i dont get is this. if you are a scammer, you are a bad person. fine. but why would you add MAIL FRAUD to your list of wrong? isnt there anyone around smart enough to say. "dude if you use this SASE you are risking getting in for Mail fraud, and you dont want that" thats what i dont get. I am sending him a letter ok, but it will NOT contain an SASE and i told him as such. i am not giving him more money that he can use for something else. again.

it annoys me because at the time he was asking for this money there were other really cool card decks that have delivered and i didnt back them because i backed him. yes i can get those decks and in some cases already have but people like him make it hard for really cool projects to get funded.

Wow, looks like he pulled a Robert Butler. That's exactly what he did to me, spent his "profit" before be spent the money on the ACTUAL product than said he couldn't pay a refund when I requested it because he didn't have all the money. Pitiful.

Well, I guess it is good to see him making an effort but this SASE thing has gotta go. I don't wish bad on anyone but it will be interesting to see how this legal action may play out. I would be much quicker to write this off if Adam had not run so many projects previous, by that I mean more than one. It is a shame he had to drag the CCC name through the mud. It probably will not effect me pledging for future CCC decks but it is understandable that some will steer away. The first project I ever backed on KS was the VORTEX DECK so I was early made aware of potential issues. If you look at the VORTEX DECK page on KS you will see how many people got scammed by that project. Interesting to see so many people taking legal recourse on the Armyman deck. I do not like to see the law come down on others but I think these scam artists need to see some consequences to prevent further burn jobs on KS

My oh my, this now deserves a giant, hearty "ACK!"

Messy messy messy, such a shame. The SASE was a poor choice and does seem intended to limit the number of refunds. Not only does it eliminate nearly all international people from getting a refund (ouch) but it would also introduce a huge burden on Adam to keep all that straight. We don't know how much money is actually left to work with, but however much it is needs to be returned electronically.

"Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

Just went into kickstarter to check on another project and saw a "reward survey" on this deck.

Reward survey

Sadly this deck could not be fulfilled. I really wish it could have happened. Please answer the following questions if you would like a refund of your pledge. Thanks for your support.

How would you like a refund?
* I do not require a refund
* I will provide my PayPal email address
* I will or have sent and SASE with my name, backer name, reward level and amount pledged

What is your PayPal email address? Enter N/A if not choosing PayPal as prefered refund method.

Looks like our friend could see the inside of a jail if he is not careful hehe comment from one of the backers

Filled out the survey - still no refund (I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!). Of course, internet fraud is a federal offense and in the aggregate , our boy Adam is definitely lifting felony weight.
One of the advantages of working for the Federal government is you get to know people in other agencies. I am going to have lunch with a friend in the Bureau tomorrow and I think Adam may be on the agenda.

Has anyone received any monies back on this refund. I think he needs to do this ASAP so Russ can get another deck out. I don't think it would be wise for CCC to put out another deck until this is resolved.

I responded right away to the KS refund request, but I haven't received my money back yet.

CBJ

I sent the SASE The day the update came out and requested this as the refund option. I have yet to recieve my SASE back.

Nothing yet

Just received my refund via PayPal.

I got mine trough paypal today.

I got mine also

Nothing for me

My refund came today in PayPal.

Got mine too.

EDIT: In full.

Same, received mine finally.

Got my refund also today.

Edit: IN FULL

Good to see people getting their cash back. I hope he will follow through and refund everyone.

Are the refunds exactly what you paid, or were the kickstarter/Amazon fees subtracted from your refund?

Thanks!

BMPokerworld wrote:Are the refunds exactly what you paid, or were the kickstarter/Amazon fees subtracted from your refund?

Thanks!

Mine seemed to be exact. I wish it were a deck of Army Men cards though

BMPokerworld wrote:Are the refunds exactly what you paid, or were the kickstarter/Amazon fees subtracted from your refund?

Thanks!

no one has posted that they got less then their full amount, many have used the term "Full Refund".

DukeBoy wrote:

BMPokerworld wrote:Are the refunds exactly what you paid, or were the kickstarter/Amazon fees subtracted from your refund?

Thanks!

no one has posted that they got less then their full amount, many have used the term "Full Refund".

On Kickstarter they did. Just curious.

Thanks!

I received a full refund today.

Glad to hear everyone is getting a full refund.

Thanks!

FULL REFUND received yesterday via PayPal.

full refund also.

Full refund as well. Let's not kid ourselves, it's only after legal action had some traction that he refunded the money. I guess that's the key to dealing with these poorly run projects of late.

I have been watching this whole thing from a distance. Never contacting ATC or Kickstarter. My pledge was pretty small and so many others were making noise about it, that I was fine to wait it out and see what happened. When he started offering refunds for those that requested it, I thought: "ok, now I better make some noise." Funny thing is, I never got the chance.
He refunded my full amount to the penny and included an apology... without me saying a word.

I was pleasantly surprised.