"ARABESQUE" by OathPlayingCards

[Merlebird]

For those of us who can't afford this, is there any hope of a collector's edition like you did for Ambassadors? Love the design but just can't swing the price.

Actually, this is the collector's edition. And yes, a player's edition is scheduled, too.

Say that sooner, my wallet will thank you....

[Cardians]

Only 9 left, grab one before there gone.

[Bikefanatic]

1. Can the thread title changed into Arabseque now that it's been revealed and in the future someone can find it in the search?

2. So...... whenever there's a high priced deck, people want a lower priced version of it because they can't afford the original? The creator can choose to do what they want but if this always happens when a lower priced version is made (even if it's a player's deck or people don't open tucks at all), it will sort of take away the value and prestige of the high priced original deck.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1. Can the thread title changed into Arabseque now that it's been revealed and in the future someone can find it in the search?

2. So...... whenever there's a high priced deck, people want a lower priced version of it because they can't afford the original? The creator can choose to do what they want but if this always happens when a lower priced version is made (even if it's a player's deck or people don't open tucks at all), it will sort of take away the value and prestige of the high priced original deck.

I agree and disagree. The "players" versions are a medium-sized reason that I'm glad I didn't buy Ambassadors (and this). However, I do own all of his first 6 "Signature" decks, and the 'lesser' versions don't take any value away from those.

[Lotrek]

I have to disagree, not because I'm the creator but because my logic dictates it. Every thing in the world has a price and a value for what it is, not for how many simpler versions there are out there.
Does a full extra edition car loses its value just because the factory produces simpler models for those who cannot (or don't want) to buy the expensive one?
I rather believe that the more simple version decks are out there, the more valuable are the "Collector's" or "Signature" Editions.

[wingedpotato]

2. So...... whenever there's a high priced deck, people want a lower priced version of it because they can't afford the original? The creator can choose to do what they want but if this always happens when a lower priced version is made (even if it's a player's deck or people don't open tucks at all), it will sort of take away the value and prestige of the high priced original deck.

I can understand the logic to an extent, but I think it is more about how you feel as a collector, not about the actual monetary value of the blinged-out deck. I asked about a player's edition because I love Lotrek's design, but all the extra hand-work and foiling doesn't interest me enough to invest. I was fully prepared for him to say "no" to my query—I certainly don't feel entitled to a cheaper edition just because I want one.

[vasta41]

I wonder if an example can be given because I can't think of a time when that ever happened. And by that I mean I can't think of any deck that has a special or limited counterpart currently valued at a higher price than its initial MSRP which causes the other deck to be worth less. Some of JR's decks come to mind- lots of his campaigns had "display versions" available but all the respective "regular" decks still maintain a good aftermarket value IMO. Maybe the could be worth more, if that's your point, but i don't know if there's any way to ever quantify that.

[Bradius]

I have collected a lot of rare things. For example in coins, Morgan Silver Dollars tend to be heavily collected because they are readily available, and the few really key dates sell for huge amounts even though there are a lot of examples, it is just that there are not enough of those dates for the number of people that collect Morgan Dollars. On the other hand, Seated Liberty Dollars are exceedingly rare compared to even the key Morgan dollar dates, but the more common seated liberty dollars are not near that expensive, because there are much fewer collectors.

My point is that availability can fuel interest and collecting, which can be an entry into more expensive collecting. On one hand, I see a more mass-produced version not necessarily adversely impacting a high-end collector version deck. It could even help spark interest in the collectible version. The key is if it is highly sought by other collectors. I think people keep saying decks are worth what someone is willing to buy them for. The problem is that the number of collectors is fairly small, so the price can really fluctuate.

In my coin example, it is a bit different in that those coins are all there are ever going to be created. For playing cards, new versions are always coming out. So it breaks down a bit, but I am still new to playing cards.

I do think it is important for each collector to understand that collecting and the resale value of their collection is highly variable. I doubt there are many sure-fire wins. That said, careful selection is always critical if good resale value of your purchases is important.

[Thedissident001]

Interesting topic. It is obvious that different people collect for different reasons, be it investment/resale, a pure desire to have it part of your collection or some combination of these. Key for me is what the “premium” cost gets you. Is it superior quality or printing, metallic foils on the cards and/or tucks, a guaranteed scarcity... Case in point would be Jackson’s display decks. These are generally the exact same cards plonked in a rudimentary quality tuck. If I collected for the sake of the cards only and didn’t care about the tuck or the presentation side of things, then the savings of buying the display version represent massive value against buying the golds or silvers. Point is understanding what you are paying the premium for, a simple theory often overlooked by those new to the hobby

[Lotrek]

When we're talking about Collector's and Player's editions we're talking about different decks from every aspect. Not just tucks. So even if I print 4.000.000 Player's edition Arabesque decks, the 333 collector's edition will never lose a penny of their value. At least not because there is a simple version around...

[Bradius]

I understand what you are saying Lotrek, because you know you will make them fundamentally and significantly different. In that case you are likely right.

However, what about Jackson’s new Federal 52? The limited edition is just green tuck with a separate card? Is it going to hold a significant premium? Maybe. It depends on collectors.

Let’s get really interesting. A group of friends of mine collectively spent several hours with a vast amount of learned knowledge to conclusively prove a coin was a fake. It was that had to tell from the real thing. There were some obvious signs pointing to it being a fake. Mainly, it just didn’t look right to them. Still, it points out a real one is worth thousands and a near identical fake is worthless.

I know some reproduction books that actually carry a significant value as a reproduction (but a fraction of the original).

Collecting is a funny and strange thing to me, especially across the many different things I have collected.

We are getting a bit off topic though.

[Bradius]

Another key point to why the Atabesque deck is expensive now is a simple one. It costs Lotrek a lot in time, contracted expenses, materials and shipping to make and send to us. He would go broke and/or do something else if he could only sell them for $10 each.

[TheGentlemanWake]

Just a note the new 2nd ed federal 52 are a mush mash “best of” of all 13 previous decks. They aren’t just a rehash. The original deck is pretty different actually.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Thedissident001]

When we're talking about Collector's and Player's editions we're talking about different decks from every aspect. Not just tucks. So even if I print 4.000.000 Player's edition Arabesque decks, the 333 collector's edition will never lose a penny of their value. At least not because there is a simple version around...

Granted I have taken JR as an isolated example, and he definitely implies the bulk of cost from his offerings is in the tucks with his pricing structures.

Lotrek, you are in some ways an exception to many rules. Nothing you release will ever really diminish in value. Especially with limited releases, as if someone passes on buying one, then you can be certain there will be other people queued up behind them to buy. For me (personally), if there were 4,000,000 players editions, then I certainly would not be prepared to pay as much for one of the 333 collector's editions. I like the scarcity, I like that not everyone who wants one can own one, I like jumping online and hitting refresh when the Kickstarters or website releases go live, its part of what makes the hobby exciting, that elusive search for the "rare ones" drives me. I suspect I'm not alone in that.

[Bikefanatic]

Let me make my example more clear. Let's say Lotrek puts out the "Greece" deck which costs $90. People wouldn't mind paying that price and some will think that price is too much.


So for the people who can't afford it at the moment or think it costs too high, they MIGHT want him to create a lower priced version of the Greece deck. This is not the case for all but it feels that way. They may want a player's edition or deck without the fancier stuff.

What I'm saying is that only unless a creator wants too, they can make more versions of a deck if they planned to anyway or not. Pretty much whatever the cost of a deck is, you're going to pay for it or not.

[JacksandJokers]

For me (personally), if there were 4,000,000 players editions, then I certainly would not be prepared to pay as much for one of the 333 collector's editions. I like the scarcity, I like that not everyone who wants one can own one, I like jumping online and hitting refresh when the Kickstarters or website releases go live, its part of what makes the hobby exciting, that elusive search for the "rare ones" drives me. I suspect I'm not alone in that.

This describes my thinking on this topic exactly.

[Bikefanatic]

For me (personally), if there were 4,000,000 players editions, then I certainly would not be prepared to pay as much for one of the 333 collector's editions.

This is my point exactly.

[rousselle]

Bah! Venexiana was a very affordable deck, and easily obtainable at the time (if you were into the KS scene at the time, or had access to any of the regular playing card vendors at the time.) But, when Venexiana Gold was released at $100 a pop, some of us still shelled out the bucks, and none of us complained one whit.

I love the "players editions" of decks. Love 'em. I love the exclusive, special editions of the decks, too. And I buy them. Heck, I've shelled out big bucks for special editions of Bicycle rider-back decks, and the "regular" versions of those are the most ubiquitous cards in the US. (Granted, I haven't paid $100 for a special edition, but those initial, experimental Metalluxe versions weren't cheap.)

Bring on the less expensive players decks. The die-hard collectors will still collect.

[Bradius]

I am with Rousselle in collecting Lotrek’s stuff. I will back the player versions and hand-crafted versions. Sadly, I was late to the party and have had to shell out to catch up. I recently happily paid $200 for a VeneXiana Gold on eBay. That was one I wanted and was having a hard time finding.

[sms69x]

Lotrek's case regarding 'player's decks' is very different from any other desinger on the market.
Others (JR) use players decks to make profit and actually devalue limited/special editions, Lotrek is completly different, one will not get a player's deck with foil and just a plain tuck box for $10 or $20, the only thing that will connect the collector's and player's editions is the Name of the deck, because even the artwork won't be the same, as foil will make a big difference in the final aspect of the deck.

[rousselle]

You reference JR's "Display Deck" concept, which he did for his Tally Ho series, but many of his other projects, he had both a special edition and a more affordable edition, and the more affordable versions did not necessarily devalue the special editions. Why, the Black Federal Reserve remains one of the more sought-after decks around, despite the far more readily available "regular" Fed 52 decks. But, even more recently, his Verum Videre and Arthurian decks had a number of notable differences between the special and the more-affordable editions.

Likewise, Lorenzo and Giovanni and Uusi and Chris Ovdiyenko and others have notably produced highly sought-after special editions as well as more affordable regular editions of their various projects.

I agree that Lotrek is of a very special breed of playing card designers/producers, but he is not the *only* such designer, and he's also not the only one who can command a premium for his premium offerings and still produce excellent and worthy "affordable" projects. It's an approach that I enthusiastically encourage.

[sms69x]

You reference JR's "Display Deck" concept, which he did for his Tally Ho series, but many of his other projects, he had both a special edition and a more affordable edition, and the more affordable versions did not necessarily devalue the special editions. Why, the Black Federal Reserve remains one of the more sought-after decks around, despite the far more readily available "regular" Fed 52 decks. But, even more recently, his Verum Videre and Arthurian decks had a number of notable differences between the special and the more-affordable editions.

Actually he started this display deck thing back when he did the continental /crown decks. And we can't put the unbranded federal 52 in the same boat as the regular federal 52, as that deck has a different back design making it a different deck, and not only an expensive tuck swap, and that's why it is one of the most sought-after decks.
Now his display decks truly depreciate the value of his special editions because he's just doing a tuck swap, as the cards are exactly the same. So when he states that there only be xxx of the special edition in reality there are xxx+yyy display decks.

Sorry for going off topic.

[Bradius]

Those that have ordered I guess have received a notice from Lotrek that the decks are going to be delayed about a week as he sources some new tuck stock, which will also include a redisgn of the tuck to improve the embossing.

The last few decks for sale have been slowly selling. Last I looked today there were only 4 more decks left.

[Thedissident001]

Tuck improvements and sourcing of new tuck stock and only one week delay?

Don’t think I’ll wait by the mailbox just yet

[Stevecru]

Wait a minute...
A deck of cards that I ordered has been delayed???
Well, that is shocking news!

[Casual Pixels]

I don't see a long production run affecting the "value" of a bespoke, highly crafted short production run.

And while not directly related to that point, Lotrek is definitely among the very small number of people producing interesting, high-quality decks with artwork that seamlessly delivers a theme while maintaining the essential spirit of a deck of cards. Peter Dunham (UUSI) and Chris Ovdiyenko would be my other two whose stuff I would order sight-unseen and where I also know that there's an enormously high chance that whatever it was would be an instant favourite.

I'd add Chris Chelko's Whispering Imps and Jackson Robinson's (Original) Fed 52 as designers of single hits (for me; I realize JR has done however many decks since then and I've bought most but to me it feels like nothing has ever come together like the original and the promise of more like it remains -- again, to me -- unfulfilled. Maduro is probably my favourite since those originals. The tuck box is perfect and greatly evocative; the courts though, are more "the form is there" but the "spirit of the courts" seems missing; a discussion for another thread, I realize).

[th4mo]

I don't see a long production run affecting the "value" of a bespoke, highly crafted short production run....

Hey CP! Good to see you around here again... I've missed your often very insightful comments.

Totally agree on Chris O, and UUSi, and I would add Lorenzo (Stockholm 17) to the top of the list of decks i would buy sight unseen!

[theCapraAegagrus]

Did you guys see Chris Ovdiyenko's latest deck..? IMO it's not even close to Oracle, Calaveras, or Arcana in terms of displaying his talents. Big disappointment.

Lotrek is really the only artist that I would consider buying sight-unseen cards from. I know that everything has a shelf-life. Lorenzo is close to that status for me because none of his back designs, courts, pips, tucks, etc, have ever been anything less than great.

[Casual Pixels]

Did you guys see Chris Ovdiyenko's latest deck..? IMO it's not even close to Oracle, Calaveras, or Arcana in terms of displaying his talents. Big disappointment.

100% Agreed

Hey CP! Good to see you around here again... I've missed your often very insightful comments.

Thank you for the very kind words! I'm hoping to have more time to hang out! I just bought a cottage and I'm hoping that means I will be making more "away from work" time for myself and also I'm hoping to finally organize and figure out a way to display my decks (1000+).

That last fact makes it easy to forget about different artists.

One that caused a fair bit of debate here was the Emperor deck

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/16 ... s-by-uspcc

Which is one of my absolute favourite examples of overlaying a theme onto the classic components of a deck.

The theme is Chinese Opera of all things, but the execution of it is absolutely flawless. The art is beautiful and the courts, especially, seem to me to capture the spirit of both worlds. Pity I never found anything else by that artist. She seems to have come out of nowhere to do this deck and then vanished back once the deck was done.

[Bradius]

Just for the record, the Arabesque deck is now completely sold out at Lotrek's site. It took awhile though to sell the last few decks.