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I think having a 2 deck display limit would be fair. Else I can see people popping them at ebay for 2-3 times the kickstarter price.
The Idea of the display deck is genius (for the customer and for the artist/salesman) a win/win situation.
So yeah i´m all for a display deck.

chach wrote:I'm kinda against display decks, they will dilute the collectability of the deck IMO. Reason I backed it was because there would be less than 1000 printed amongst the different types. And while it could change, there are no plans currently to limit the number a person can order meaning someone could order a few gross to sell in secondary market for all those that couldn't get a spot in campaign.

Mind you, this opinion changes completely if the number of decks one can buy is limited to number of decks one has already pledged for.

As an aussie, I agree! . This is the trouble with an unlimited number of display decks - it's just an avenue for many to buy a load and resell - as they are exactly the same as the 'Limited' deck except for the tuck and $13!

That said, option 'A' (display decks) is the only one I'm even vaguely interested in. There just needs to be a limit - say, less than 5 decks per backer, to moderate this.

kason1011 wrote: Hello Aussie friends , I have the The Independence series and the display decks. I think the display deck will not affect the collectability and the rareness of the original deck. Since the display deck's tuck, paper, stock, finish of the cards is different. It is more like plasticky.

AFAIK the display decks are exactly the same smooth finish as the LTD decks in this series. The 'Standard' decks are air cushion (/whatever) and the LTD & Display decks are Smooth.

With the display decks, looks like jackson can once again meet his 2500-print run once again..

Gareth wrote: AFAIK the display decks are exactly the same smooth finish as the LTD decks in this series. The 'Standard' decks are air cushion (/whatever) and the LTD & Display decks are Smooth.

And this is the main problem i have with it. I would be able to pull out a display deck and pull out a LTD deck mix the cards up in a big pile and then I should be able to easily separate the two.

Ok that was rather insane. Jackson, I would rather you be making playing cards than leather cases. Everything you do is top notch....

http://vimeo.com/112253649

If anyone's thinking of ditching a single deck slot or a scarlett/gold combo PM me. I really haven't being paying attention and missed out

Likewise, if anybody is thinking of opting out of a gilded slot, please lemme know. (Or if you're getting two, but are willing to part with one....)

Has anyone thought that maybe jackson truly knows what his biggest contributors want? Is it possible he has all this planned out to produce display decks but not offer them till after his LEs were all taken? I'm sure many of his biggest contributors are resellers and this is the best thing he could do for them.

This just popped in my head and I figured I'd throw it out for a laugh. Have fun. Lmao.

Cbkimble wrote:Has anyone thought that maybe jackson truly knows what his biggest contributors want? Is it possible he has all this planned out to produce display decks but not offer them till after his LEs were all taken? I'm sure many of his biggest contributors are resellers and this is the best thing he could do for them.

This just popped in my head and I figured I'd throw it out for a laugh. Have fun. Lmao.

Not a chance Cbkimble. I think the sting of 2 canceled Kickstarters has lead from one extreme to the other. He needs to find a happy medium. Now we are on a thought experiment to engage the backers. I am intrigued with the display deck. Hell no, I don't want to open my real decks. I know for a fact the display deck will win out from the other 2 options. Think about it. You have a display deck and 2 posters. The votes from the 2 posters are going to be diluted and the display deck is going to win out. I'm glad he is riding a wave of success again even though he has painted himself in a corner.

chach wrote:I'm kinda against display decks, they will dilute the collectability of the deck IMO. Reason I backed it was because there would be less than 1000 printed amongst the different types. And while it could change, there are no plans currently to limit the number a person can order meaning someone could order a few gross to sell in secondary market for all those that couldn't get a spot in campaign.

While it won't have a jazzed up tuck with foil and embossing, the promo picture still shows a nice looking tuck. So what was supposed to be an ultra-limited magnum opus dedicated to his daughter now becomes a no holds barred wide release deck with just some limited editions. This is what the original campaign should've been for in the first place IMO, with the limiteds as special tiers.

Mind you, this opinion changes completely if the number of decks one can buy is limited to number of decks one has already pledged for.

I don't think that the display decks devalue the LE decks at all. There could be 10,000 display decks, but everyone knows what the LE decks look like (because of the obvious tuck difference), and that'll be the one collectors will want for their collection. Look at Independence. People are selling display decks for as low as $5, but the LE deck (which has the same exact cards inside) are still selling for much higher prices. The demand is still there for the LE version, and it still has a premium price.

I'm saying this from a collector's standpoint. It can be argued that since there is a cheaper option available with the exact same cards, it'll make the LE decks less desirable. If you're a collector, I don't think so. A collector will most likely want the one with all the bells and whistles on the tuck. If you're a regular card player looking for a nice but unique deck to play games with, then of course you'd prefer the $7 display deck option for practical purposes. So looking at it from a collector's perspective, it doesn't matter if there are unlimited display decks. I'd still want the LE deck with the fancy tuck that's limited to 1,000.

Cobretti wrote:

Gareth wrote: AFAIK the display decks are exactly the same smooth finish as the LTD decks in this series. The 'Standard' decks are air cushion (/whatever) and the LTD & Display decks are Smooth.

And this is the main problem i have with it. I would be able to pull out a display deck and pull out a LTD deck mix the cards up in a big pile and then I should be able to easily separate the two.

The whole point of the display decks is to have the cards the same as the LE without the fancy packaging so people don't feel guilty about opening up a valuable collector's item. So wanting to tell the difference between the deck inside the display deck and the LE deck defeats this purpose (though I suppose the slight difference in finish is not a big deal). If the cards in the display deck are the same as the one in the LE deck, why would you want to open up the more valuable and collectible LE deck? Would there really be an instance where someone would happen to want to mix the cards in the display deck and the LE deck together? And if such an instance should occur, if the cards are the same, why does it matter which cards go back into which box (you've already devalued the LE deck by opening it, anyway)?

sprouts1115 wrote:Yea, in this project Jackson might be thinking I wish this Kickstarter had a nuke button if all my stuff is gone. That would be some good control. End the Kickstarter whenever you wanted.

Um... I would be against a nuke button. Some people plan their budget based on when the Kickstarter gets funded. If there was such a button, and the project ended suddenly, there is a chance that there will be a higher amount of dropped pledges. If Jackson ended his campaign today for example, I would have insufficient funds in my bank account to cover my pledge, because this week I didn't set aside money for that pledge - I used it to pay my other bills. If, however, it ended on the date as stated in the KS, I would have sufficient funds because I've already set aside money for that date. This might seem selfish because I'm using myself as an example, but I'm pretty sure there are other people like me who plan out their budget and an unexpected charge on an unexpected date can really throw things off.

Au contraire, if you want the display deck because you want to play with the cards wouldn't it make perfect sense to have the option to have more than one? I mean you'll eventually wear it out.

Then again, I wouldn't give a damn if they reprinted any of the limited or rare decks I own in second editions. I like the cards for their designs, any perceived collectibility due to others not being able to own one is not something I quite get. I collect and purchase because I like the deck, what other people do or don't I don't worry about.

So... I'd like to see a cover coin to go along with this deck. I realize that the number of backers might not justify it. But, Jackson has designed some excellent cover coins to go with his decks, and Randy waaay upped the ante with his vibrantly colored coins for his most recent Ornate decks. It would be interesting to see Jackson take that ball and run with it, esp. given the Scarlett/Scarlet connection here.

rousselle wrote:So... I'd like to see a cover coin to go along with this deck. I realize that the number of backers might not justify it. But, Jackson has designed some excellent cover coins to go with his decks, and Randy waaay upped the ante with his vibrantly colored coins for his most recent Ornate decks. It would be interesting to see Jackson take that ball and run with it, esp. given the Scarlett/Scarlet connection here.

I like the coin idea. Jackson is known for his coins. You need a minimum of 100 from coinforanything.com He has 491 backers. I would make 500 coins and give the option to buy one. Sell the rest in the aftermarket....

Sher wrote:
Um... I would be against a nuke button. Some people plan their budget based on when the Kickstarter gets funded. If there was such a button, and the project ended suddenly, there is a chance that there will be a higher amount of dropped pledges. If Jackson ended his campaign today for example, I would have insufficient funds in my bank account to cover my pledge, because this week I didn't set aside money for that pledge - I used it to pay my other bills. If, however, it ended on the date as stated in the KS, I would have sufficient funds because I've already set aside money for that date. This might seem selfish because I'm using myself as an example, but I'm pretty sure there are other people like me who plan out their budget and an unexpected charge on an unexpected date can really throw things off.

I hate when people use logic. Because you know logic is wrong in this modern world haha.

Marcus wrote:Au contraire, if you want the display deck because you want to play with the cards wouldn't it make perfect sense to have the option to have more than one? I mean you'll eventually wear it out.

Then again, I wouldn't give a damn if they reprinted any of the limited or rare decks I own in second editions. I like the cards for their designs, any perceived collectibility due to others not being able to own one is not something I quite get. I collect and purchase because I like the deck, what other people do or don't I don't worry about.

Wearing out the deck is part of the charm. You can build memories and stories around it. I have 20 year old decks that are rough as guts but they can still be used to play with.

It devalues the collectabilty because the campaign was pitched as a limited edition campaign. So prices for these decks were set accordingly to that.

I think JR got it right a balanced limit in the end. Instead of the original pitched unlimited decks.

sprouts1115 wrote:

Cbkimble wrote:Has anyone thought that maybe jackson truly knows what his biggest contributors want? Is it possible he has all this planned out to produce display decks but not offer them till after his LEs were all taken? I'm sure many of his biggest contributors are resellers and this is the best thing he could do for them.

This just popped in my head and I figured I'd throw it out for a laugh. Have fun. Lmao.

Not a chance Cbkimble. I think the sting of 2 canceled Kickstarters has lead from one extreme to the other. He needs to find a happy medium. Now we are on a thought experiment to engage the backers. I am intrigued with the display deck. Hell no, I don't want to open my real decks. I know for a fact the display deck will win out from the other 2 options. Think about it. You have a display deck and 2 posters. The votes from the 2 posters are going to be diluted and the display deck is going to win out. I'm glad he is riding a wave of success again even though he has painted himself in a corner.

The following is not a critique on Jackson but my insight (albeit opinion) on the motivations
I actually agree with Cbkimble. I think Jackson planned to release the display decks. Or more accurately hoped he would be able to release them. I think Jackson did learn from his two failed campaigns. He realized that the type of collectors that collect his deck are the type that will pay for exclusivity. These collectors are more likely to go all-in on a limited deck, but ignore a full run standard deck, I think this is why the Arrow deck got cancelled and why the first Tally-Ho didn't do as well as expected ( on top of the different funding site) (the Army deck was a differnt circumstance).This is why he arrange the kickstarter as he did . He never had any thought of doing only a 1000 deck run. It isn't cost effective. He set up the pricing on the limited decks to cover all costs of whatever run size he decided on. This was done with the idea of either selling display decks or uncut sheets at a later time... Or during the campaign if it came up. He has shown his willingness to do this in the past with the Reserve note deck. He made a super limited deck with a black back and then he went and printed a larger run to make it cost effective and agreeable with USPCC. This is why he has so many uncut sheets available for so cheap on his web site.
There is no financial risk to do this as the "extra" run is already paid for by the initial limited decks. The only thing that is risked is the profits.
Example (numbers are made up)
At 1000 decks let's say Jackson pays $5 a deck he pays $5000 dollars. He then sells them between $ 20 and $60 a piece (yes I know the foil adds extra price, this is just an example) he now has made $38,000 or a profit of $33,000.
Now let's say he makes 1000 limited decks that he sells between $20 and $60 but actually does a run of 2500 which brings his deck cost down to let's say $3 a deck. He now spends $7000. This makes his profit only $31,000. However he now has a potential to sell the extra run as something else ... Display decks let's say. He sells these at $5 a pop still making a profit of $2 on each. He now has the potential to make $45,000 dollars or a profit of $38,000.
So for a risks of some profit (not out of pocket expenses) he has the chance to make greater profit. The more he prints the lower the per deck expense and the greater the potential for still no out of pocket risk.
I am pretty certain this is what is happening here. And I think it is extremely shrewd and smart business. I am also pretty sure that my numbers are low balling the whole situation meaning there is less risk to the profit with more chance to gain (I.e selling display decks at $7 and maybe offering uncut sheets on his website for $30 - $75)


TL,DR version
Jackson may not be well liked around here (for personal opinions that some have) but he definitely is coming to understands his "fan" base well.

I second utterfools analysis, i pretty much said the same thing (although not quite as eloquently, and in the mod forum) when he did this for the independence campaign, but its not so much the strategy that irks me, rather it is the misrepresentation that there will only ever be XXX number of decks, then later releases another XXX number of display decks either because YOU GUYS WANT IT !/IM DOING YOU AN ABSOLUTE FAVOUR when all along it has been planned for. Biasness or not, everyone has their own opinion on everything, im not enforcing mine on you, you have to be your own judge.

Edit: But i have to add that the display decks are definitely a good way for more of the art to be shown and not kept in the box.

I think UtterFool is right, and it's a very good business tactic since it's a win-win. He still gets a lower cost per deck due to the larger print run (a win for him), but is still able to deliver a limited edition deck (which is what people want, so a win for consumers, you could say) and charge accordingly.

Now I'm sure someone is going to bring this up sooner or later, so I'm just going to do it now - Why charge so much if he has a lower cost per deck? Maybe becuase he's not sure if he'll make up the cost by selling the display decks. Marking up the price will at least ensure that he will be able to meet the cost of printing, even if he doesn't sell the 1,500 extra decks/uncut sheets.

Yeah, but anyways, I don't think anything is wrong with this practice at all, though I agree with Kai about not looking at the display decks as a generous favor (which I thought was the case, at first), since it really benefits him as much as it makes consumers happy.

Really these are pretty much the same price as the Independence LE decks.

Here's a price breakdown of independence set:
$24 standard pair
$7 collectors box
$14 display decks(Scarlett price)
$50 remainder for LEs
$95 total for one full set

A single deck for me is $24 so times 2 is $48 and that's still $2 cheaper than the independence LEs. That's just how I see it.

The thing about the Independence Set is, people were willing to pay $95 for the set *before* they even knew they were getting display decks. So initially, for a full set at $95, the breakdown was:
$24 standard pair
$7 collectors box
$64 remainder for LEs, for $32 each

And at the time, people were actually okay with paying $32 for the LE deck. It just so happened that the introduction of the display deck lowered the cost to $25 each (according to your breakdown, with display decks at $7 each).

Also, because Jackson introduced the display decks after people had already pledged, and for *free,* it was perceived has very generous of him, even though the price tag of the LE decks ($32 each) was high enough that it pretty much covered the cost of both the LE deck and the display decks.

When Jackson produced 1,000 unbranded black reserve notes, many people wondered how he got USPCC to lower their minimum. For a while, people thought he really only printed 1,000. However, it has been revealed that he actually didn't bypass the minimum print run requirement of 2,500. What he did was print 1,000-1,600 decks and the rest were left as uncut sheets (so that the total would still be approx 2,500).

Considering this, having the Independence as a limited 1,000 deck run would mean he'd have approximately 1,500 of the deck to spare, or 1,500 uncut sheets. Therefore, it's reasonable to infer that he may have planned to release the display decks all along, and did it in such a way that produced a positive response. I mean... what else was he going to do with the extra 1,500 decks?

Basically he marked up the price of the LE decks to cover the cost of printing two decks, and then offered the second deck for free. Nothing wrong with this, it's actually a pretty smart tactic. Just pointing out that 1) People were willing to pay $32 per deck for a limited edition, and 2) Jackson probably planned the display decks since he needed to get rid of the extra decks anyway.

Either way, jackson is learning pretty quickly and he has a lot more business sense than many give him credit for.

Here's the latest update:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/17 ... inso/posts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Display deck production question.

I have had a few PMs asking me about the how the production of the display decks is going to work, so I will figured I would address that here.

Q: How many display decks will be produced and how does this affect the print run of all of the LTD decks?

A: None at all. All of the LTD deck editions added together is a little under 1000 total decks. There will be an extra 100 LTD decks printed that will NOT be sold during or after the project. The additional 100 decks are a 10% overage required by The United States Playing Card Company.

As for the display decks go I will only print as many decks needed this time to fulfill the pledges of the Kickstarter. Display decks will NOT be sold on my website after the project is over. Looking at how many people have added on funds for display decks the final number of display decks ordered will most likely settle around 400-500.

Q: How many Uncut Sheets are you printing?

A: I will only be printing 50 - 75 total uncut sheets, depending on the final number needed to fulfill the Kickstarter rewards.

If you have any other questions don't hesitate to PM, leave a comment, or ask Brendan who is my Kings Wild Crew member.

Here's the thing - if you are a repeat customer printing tens of thousands of decks on a regular basis, there will be wiggle room to bend any set limits for print runs etc. Depending on who's asking and who's making the decision, it can range from tiny to a lot. Jackson has had a close working relationship with the USPCC (including having a deal that he designs decks for them every now and then), and therefore it does make sense that he can get a print-run lower than the 2.5k limit. He can't get a print-run that low every time, but on rare occasions he can as long as he keeps coming back with larger ones in between. And I'm pretty sure Jackson is paying out of his nose for these limited decks, that small a print-run is definitely not going to give him a massive margin.

When it comes to print-runs, prices, delivery time etc nothing is ever set in stone. The reason for the 2.5k minimum is because anything lower than that really isn't making USPCC that much money, and it is too time consuming to set up everything before, during and after the print for such a low number. They don't want to do this for everyone because it's not worth it compared to doing larger runs. But just like other companies can provide repeat customers with benefits, so can too the USPCC.

That new Joker is great!

Eoghann wrote:That new Joker is great!

I thought it looked a little "plump" myself. Lol.

Do I see a little Dr Seuss in the Joker for Scarlett?
https://vimeo.com/112434291

New Weapon and Armor for the KoC, but he keeps the old symbolism of the Orb. Really like the half disk elements. I see the old cards are starting to rub off on you.

Just a heads up,for anyone who wants a standard ed. deck,i'l be dropping my pledge in an hour

kayzaim wrote:Just a heads up,for anyone who wants a standard ed. deck,i'l be dropping my pledge in an hour

Thanks!

Would be nice if he removed the "become a backer" from his webpage.
(Doesn't matter to me since I'm never backing him again. But it would be courteous.)

Just noticed a 2 deck tier has opened up in case anyone wants to jump in on that while it's available.

Marcus wrote:Just noticed a 2 deck tier has opened up in case anyone wants to jump in on that while it's available.

Looks like it was snagged before the funding finished.