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Widdee wrote:Great price analysis there Sinjin. If anything else, the creators who are giving beaucoup bells and whistles for a good price- and for 12 bucks it should be pretty damn fancy- are going to keep everybody else honest.

Will they? I'd like to think so, but the success of 4PM Designs deck "Tenebre" seems to indicate otherwise.

sinjin7 wrote:Here are some recent KS with all the bells and whistles on the tucks:

Uusi Pagan - Embossed linen texture, foil outside and colored inside - $12
Ornates - Embossed, foil outside and inside of tuck - $12
Borderline - Embossed, T11-like foiling outside - $12
Origins - Embossed, foil on the outside - $12.50
Mana - Embossed, foil on outside, colored inside tuck - $11.20
Sherlock Holmes - Embossed, foil on outside, printing/foil inside of tuck - $12

Again, all the above are recent decks, all from USPCC, all on KS. These are examples of the finest decks with expensive tucks and all around $12 at the single deck price point. When you can get decks of this caliber at this price point, then it should tell you something about other decks you see that aren't as well designed and without all the expensive bells and whistles on the tuck boxes selling at $12 or more.

The decks produced by EPCC and LPCC use Asian factories that cost much less and charge you much less for tuck boxes, so I don't know why any EPCC/LPCC deck should cost over $10 on KS.

I'm not aware of the Interlace deck being foiled or foiled on the inside of the tuck. Hell, it won't even be embossed unless the project reaches (*gasp*) $100,000.00! So why is the LPCC version $12? Given the plainness of the tucks, why is even the UPCC version $12?

I don't begrudge any deck artist charging whatever they want for their decks. However, they have to realize that by charging a premium, buyers aren't as quick to fork over money, unless price isn't an issue. Ideally, by using EPCC or LPCC, they can lower the price and keep the same margins compared to printing a Bicycle deck, but on the other hand, charging the same, they can increase their margins, just as long as people are willing to pay for it.

With these Interlace decks, I think the artist made a big mistake from the outset. Too many decks, to high goal and pricing. It's his first project. If he wanted a realistic comparison, he should have priced Bicycle decks at $12 and the other decks at $9-$10. He'd see pretty quickly what backers want.

Hopefully Christian tries, using a different approach next time, because this campaign won't reach $28,000.

TGunitedcardists wrote: I don't begrudge any deck artist charging whatever they want for their decks. However, they have to realize that by charging a premium, buyers aren't as quick to fork over money, unless price isn't an issue. Ideally, by using EPCC or LPCC, they can lower the price and keep the same margins compared to printing a Bicycle deck, but on the other hand, charging the same, they can increase their margins, just as long as people are willing to pay for it.

Exactly. The general price is $12, and anything priced higher than $14 has a difficult time funding unless the artist already has an established following. For a first campaign, this is a bit ambitious, though I wish Christian the best of luck. I do hope to see these produced.... If not through this campaign, perhaps another.

rousselle wrote:

Widdee wrote:Great price analysis there Sinjin. If anything else, the creators who are giving beaucoup bells and whistles for a good price- and for 12 bucks it should be pretty damn fancy- are going to keep everybody else honest.

Will they? I'd like to think so, but the success of 4PM Designs deck "Tenebre" seems to indicate otherwise.

I compared it to the other fare and passed on it, but wasn't a big pull on that deck the low print run?

rousselle wrote:Will they? I'd like to think so, but the success of 4PM Designs deck "Tenebre" seems to indicate otherwise.

Widdee wrote:I compared it to the other fare and passed on it, but wasn't a big pull on that deck the low print run?

People will eventually catch on that these decks produced in Taiwan & China are cheaper, and should be priced cheaper. Also, since those Asian factories have the flexibility to do low print runs at a relatively low price, the novelty of 1000 print run decks will wear off since anyone can print decks in quantities as low as 1000 now.

Paul and 4PM were ahead of the curve and were able to cash in charging $18 to $20 for their low print run decks. The market will eventually correct.

sinjin7 wrote:People will eventually catch on that these decks produced in Taiwan & China are cheaper, and should be priced cheaper. Also, since those Asian factories have the flexibility to do low print runs at a relatively low price, the novelty of 1000 print run decks will wear off since anyone can print decks in quantities as low as 1000 now.

Paul and 4PM were ahead of the curve and were able to cash in charging $18 to $20 for their low print run decks. The market will eventually correct.

I think it's more accurate to say they can be cheaper. Cheaper doesn't mean inferior quality. I think EPCC produces decks on par with USPCC.

The people selling the cards (sometimes the artist themselves) have every right to price them as high as they wish and take as much profit as they can get.

That said, anything higher than $12 a deck is pushing it now. The sweet spot is lower. The design is still the biggest selling factor, not price.

RE: Price Difference between EEPC and USPCC

Don't you have to consider that the cards have to be shipped from Asia to the US and then sent to all the backers, whereas that cost isn't there when using USPCC?

The cards can be shipped via overseas freight on those huge cargo barges that go back and forth between Asia and the U.S. It can take up to a month (usually less) before the barges reach U.S. shores depending on your timing, and its dirt cheap. Paul mentioned getting the decks delivered internationally from Taiwan to the U.S. port was a lot cheaper than getting the decks delivered domestically from the U.S. port to his home for his Zenith decks.

You can go on Asian import websites such as dx.com and get an item as cheap as $2 shipped for free to the U.S. As long as you're willing to wait about a month, the cost of getting the cards shipped on those cargo vessels is almost negligible compared to the rest of the costs of production. Certainly it's not high enough (where even factoring in both international, then domestic shipping) that it offsets the savings derived from using the Asian manufacturing plants. Bottom line is that even after paying for shipping the decks from Taiwan/China to the U.S., the EPCC/LPCC decks are still significantly cheaper (less expensive) than domestic USPCC decks.

The whole problem with this campaign isn't even about the price. It's about printing the same deck with two printers. If someone really wanted to see the difference, they would buy the NOC v2 & v3 to compare, can probably get both for the price of one deck here. This idea just makes the goal so unachievable, whoever came up with this idea deserves to be shot

volantangel wrote:The whole problem with this campaign isn't even about the price. It's about printing the same deck with two printers. If someone really wanted to see the difference, they would buy the NOC v2 & v3 to compare, can probably get both for the price of one deck here. This idea just makes the goal so unachievable, whoever came up with this idea deserves to be shot

Agree here, no idea who thought it'd be a good idea for this to be the 'selling point' of the deck/campaign.

snsdmonkey wrote:

volantangel wrote:The whole problem with this campaign isn't even about the price. It's about printing the same deck with two printers. If someone really wanted to see the difference, they would buy the NOC v2 & v3 to compare, can probably get both for the price of one deck here. This idea just makes the goal so unachievable, whoever came up with this idea deserves to be shot

Agree here, no idea who thought it'd be a good idea for this to be the 'selling point' of the deck/campaign.

This is the guy that came up with the idea, and he stopped answering questions on Kickstarter & UC a week ago:

I'm glad other people are seeing the bigger picture here. I was chastised when I first said this deck didn't blow my socks off. As if I didn't realize the significance of what was going on. But I knew all along- a mediocre deck was being printed by two different companies at the same time for a steep (considering how plain the deck and tuck are) price. Whooptie-doo.

I don't think this is a mediocre deck. I think the art was done very well and from the design and development thread, you can see the different stages and how much work it took to reach the final design. The price may be a bit steep, yeah, but I don't think the art itself merits such criticism.

Sher wrote:I don't think this is a mediocre deck. I think the art was done very well and from the design and development thread, you can see the different stages and how much work it took to reach the final design. The price may be a bit steep, yeah, but I don't think the art itself merits such criticism.

As I said before, I think the artwork is beautiful. When I say mediocre I mean incomparison to today's standards.

I understand that the idea of two different decks doesn't apply to everyone, but the intricacy of the design is stunning, and I don't think we should shoot the poor guy for trying something different. That's where progress comes from.

wahl0108 wrote:I understand that the idea of two different decks doesn't apply to everyone, but the intricacy of the design is stunning, and I don't think we should shoot the poor guy for trying something different. That's where progress comes from.

I think a relaunch is the best thing that he can do.

sinjin7 wrote:

snsdmonkey wrote:

volantangel wrote:The whole problem with this campaign isn't even about the price. It's about printing the same deck with two printers. If someone really wanted to see the difference, they would buy the NOC v2 & v3 to compare, can probably get both for the price of one deck here. This idea just makes the goal so unachievable, whoever came up with this idea deserves to be shot

Agree here, no idea who thought it'd be a good idea for this to be the 'selling point' of the deck/campaign.

This is the guy that came up with the idea, and he stopped answering questions on Kickstarter & UC a week ago:

Actually, after reading the "Special Thanks" section I'd be willing to bet that this wasn't Christian's idea. Probably Don or someone at this "deckspies.com", whoever they are. I just hope Christian didn't pay for these "consultation services", if he did he'd better get his money back

MagikFingerz wrote:

sinjin7 wrote:

snsdmonkey wrote:

volantangel wrote:The whole problem with this campaign isn't even about the price. It's about printing the same deck with two printers. If someone really wanted to see the difference, they would buy the NOC v2 & v3 to compare, can probably get both for the price of one deck here. This idea just makes the goal so unachievable, whoever came up with this idea deserves to be shot

Agree here, no idea who thought it'd be a good idea for this to be the 'selling point' of the deck/campaign.

This is the guy that came up with the idea, and he stopped answering questions on Kickstarter & UC a week ago:

Actually, after reading the "Special Thanks" section I'd be willing to bet that this wasn't Christian's idea. Probably Don or someone at this "deckspies.com", whoever they are. I just hope Christian didn't pay for these "consultation services", if he did he'd better get his money back

Buddy we really dont want to be sued for knocking down competition do we ?

Hey, at least I didn't say they should be shot

Hahaha i didnt say who XD

volantangel wrote:

wahl0108 wrote:I think a relaunch is the best thing that he can do.

With a lower funding goal, using just one printer and printing just one deck... stretch goal the rest.

StanKindLee wrote:

volantangel wrote:

wahl0108 wrote:I think a relaunch is the best thing that he can do.

With a lower funding goal, using just one printer and printing just one deck... stretch goal the rest.

Emboss the case, jazz up the colors, maybe add some metalic ink (or not, keeping it in the $10-$12 range for USPCC) and I'd surely pledge for that!

The backs look fine but it seems like the courts hurt the deck because they look so lack luster.

I actually really like the design of these decks. Reminds me of MC Escher whom I have always liked.

What I don't like is the fact that the completionist in me would wind up getting 8 decks (2ea of the reds and the blacks when available) and I don't like the deck THAT much.

I'm being much more picky about what I back and in many cases am taking a "wait and see" approach.

Wow, get called in to work for a week and people are considering shooting me ! jk

I'm taking this thread back. got tired of holding my tongue. I admit it, I was very geeked about the idea of having a comparison deck. THERE! I said it... I WANTED A COMPARISON DECK. I thought with the number of people making decks, they might too. i just thought since it was never attempted, it would be worth the risk to see if others got just as excited about the idea. ... long story short, I guess not. My guess is that people are inundated with too many decks and just want them affordably. I get that. looking at how people have bought decks in the recent past though, you'd never guess that. I'm not trying to be too snarky here, but I just based the prices on what other industries call "fair market value," look it up. I've never seen a deck get such criticism on price when it priced the same as every other deck. yes its cheaper to print with Legends. but i make next to NOTHING on the bikes. If you want people to pour themselves into a deck. you should consider paying them. anyway, I'm going to see how far this campaign goes. If it doesn't fund. I plan to relaunch. but when I do, the base funding won't be for 2 manufacturers in the same run thats for sure.

Yeah I agree people like to whine on price all the time. Like a lot of folks say all the time no one is forcing you to buy it. your deck is the same price has 90% of the project out there. I have to admit I am surprised this is not funding. I will be back on the relaunch if this ends up not funding

good luck

thanks man... i can roll with it.. its all a big experiment.

sastian wrote:I'm not trying to be too snarky here, but I just based the prices on what other industries call "fair market value," look it up. I've never seen a deck get such criticism on price when it priced the same as every other deck. yes its cheaper to print with Legends. but i make next to NOTHING on the bikes.

I'm not trying to be too snarky here, but based upon your Kickstarter funding progress, it seems you're prices are NOT based on "fair market value" for this deck since it appears not a lot of people consider it worth pledging for at price you're offering these decks. Don't worry, I've looked it up. You also really under-estimated the novelty of having a comparison deck. Most collectors have already handled both USPCC & LPCC decks, we don't need identically designed decks in order to tell the differences, and if we did, we'd just get the NOC decks.

Get ready for criticism on price, its a new card collecting world now. You have too many impeccably designed decks with all the bells and whistles on the tucks selling for $12 now, just look at anything Uusi or Jackson Robinson has done recently. There's your standard now, any deck that falls below that is going to be a hard sell at the same $12. Only the most mindless card collecting muppets are going to be willing to be bent over and raped with over-priced decks these days. There's just too many great decks coming out to be wasting money on mediocre decks.

I personally think you have a decent deck, but not a great one. I pledged for your USPCC deck and utterly ignored your LPCC deck. It appears my pledge will be a moot point 19 days from now. I hope you've learned some valuable lessons from your first attempt and good luck with your second try.

Sastian, If you don't get your funding this time around, please re-post these decks one at a time until they get funded!

I'm frustrated for you that this has been such an uphill battle; but I hope to eventually hold these beautifully designed decks in my hands!

I've pledged for now, and will pledge again on your future project efforts too.

Will Hart
Fullerton, California

Yea, I'm sad this isn't getting funded - i'd say next time around pick one printer and a smaller goal.