Independence - by Jackson Robinson - KS Funded $116k!

[Sher]

Jackson Robinson annonced strech goals this morning (for me). Happy to see them.

But except for the two first strech goal, i think it would be hard to reach the following (the Limited Edition decks are near to be all sold).

Well, you never know. His Fed 52 Part 2 project did reach $188k. And we still have more than 20 days to go...

[JacksonRobinson]

I'm currently in for a 2 of each but I may de-pledge. Quite expensive and I'm still a bit not happy about the Sherlock Holmes extra-limited editions. If I do decide to de-pledge I'll advise here first so someone from UC can hopefully jump in.

Don't know if you missed it but, in response to everyone critiques and response to the small run of Gold Gilded Bakerstreet editions I chose to NOT proceed with the gilded run and maintain the original run of 1000 LTD.

[bamabenz]

I think that's a good decision. Although, if I recall correctly you were to have USPCC have the gilding done? It would have been interesting to see how that compared to the hand gilding that UUSI is going to do in their shop for the Pagan decks...

Hey! Why not offer that as an add-on for The Independence STD decks?

[ivan]

For those who have not seen this yet- interview w Jackson on the future of Kings Wild Project, the inspiration behind the Independence and his thoughts on Kickstarter.

http://www.kardify.com/2014/03/kickstar ... ckson.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Eoghann]

Great read! Thanks Ivan!

[Widdee]

Enjoyed the interview Ivan! As much as we rag on Jackson here I hope he knows we do appreciate his creativity and just as important business sense. And he does listen.

[Strag]

I'm currently in for a 2 of each but I may de-pledge. Quite expensive and I'm still a bit not happy about the Sherlock Holmes extra-limited editions. If I do decide to de-pledge I'll advise here first so someone from UC can hopefully jump in.

Don't know if you missed it but, in response to everyone critiques and response to the small run of Gold Gilded Bakerstreet editions I chose to NOT proceed with the gilded run and maintain the original run of 1000 LTD.

I did miss it and that's good to hear. I'll be keeping my 2 of each pledge.

[Eoghann]

And he does listen.

That's his virtue and his curse. As my mom says "you offer someone your hand, they grab the elbow". Jackson recognizes the value of public opinion, but often we confuse that with self entitlement as if we owned the rights to dictate how he should work. Where some try to offer a level headed discussion others just attack like a pack of rabid dogs. Reading the Independance comment section...Jesus. In JR's shoes I would've probably flipped out by now and burned all my product like that crazy hippie and his art book on Kickstarter (PLEASE don't get any ideas, Jackson )

The news didn't make me feel as good and victorious as I thought it would. In fact it made me feel like an asshole. That we pushed him into a corner, with the public outcry being so loud and noxious that Jackson just threw his arms up and said "smurf it. Not worth my trouble". Whether that was the case or not, I don't feel good about it.

They call us "whiners" and blame us for a gilded deck not making it into the world. I could argue that the ones in favor barely made a peep. And that projects who offered that option did it while the project was live, when everyone had a chance. A voice that doesn't speak up is a voice that doesn't count. So it's logical to assume that the vocal opposers are the voice of the masses. And can easily turn the tides when public opinion is taken into consideration. The very concept of the deck is laudable and groundbreaking, but the post project execution was bound to carry too much bad blood and affect Jackson negatively.

But, as previously stated...what's done is done. And Jackson has decided to take the path which to me should be the standard on how to make an LE deck: crank it up to 11. Not one bell here or a whistle there..but go all out from the beginning.

And I can't thank him enough for that.

[badpete69]

And so speaks the generation of entitled spoiled brats. If I can't get it I do not want anyone to get it. Like that mom in the east coast who had a father daughter school dance cancelled because her daughter father could not make it . Like the morons on welfare protesting in front of Wall street because they cannot get a job that pays $40 an hour while they sit on their fat ass and do nothing all day. Like the panel in Seattle that want the words brown bag lunch banned because it might offend african americans. Should I go on? Yes this post was meant to be a bit overboard But I am so tired of this nonsense. OOhhhh jackson you are such a good guy now that you are not doing your gilded deck that I could not buy anyway just because I am going to cry all night if someone else buys it and my series is not worth 2 gazillion bucks

We live in a society of wusses that have to conform to the minority as soon as someone complains

Ok off my high horse and back to regular programming hehehehehe

[Mike Ratledge]

Why did you stop? I was enjoying it! It's about time we all quit bitching and start doing something.

I guess most of you saw my comments - don't get me started...

[Eoghann]

I'd like to honestly know how many were going to buy that deck to keep or *gasp* even open it to admire the guilded edges and not hawk it on eBay for a trillion dollars when the time was right. I absolutely despise the person who buys out all the limited items and even creates several personas to monopolize the stock not because they like it or want it, but because they know some sucker will pay hundreds of dollars after market for it. That's simple greed. Why can't people just grab their share (maybe seconds) and leave the rest for everyone to enjoy? We live in a selfish culture where everyone's trying to screw the next guy that comes along. I get that's the nature of the beast...just wish it weren't so bloodthirsty. I rarely sell, I rarely trade because I buy for myself..not for others.

I defend the idea that if an artist should release limited editions of anything, to do it for the people that love his craft. And not tailor it for the people who will just sell his highly lucrative product. Paul with his personalized Deco tucks - fantastic and justified, Lotrek with his signature edition - gorgeous and unique, Jackson with fed 52 LE and Independence LE - he went all out with them, Dale Mathis and his gear tuck - crazy cool. Those are perfect examples of what's right with the world of deliberate limited. Slapping on a different seal or swapping a tuck and calling it a day is not.

I rarely go out of my financial comfort zone for limited editions, but some are definitely worth it and I have no qualms about coming up with the money somehow.
We are definitely polluted by people who want the best for close to free or throw a tantrum if they weren't there in time to catch a rare piece.

[badpete69]

It's not name calling , it is just the plain truth. And I do not know anyone who buys a limited edition just to hawk it on ebay; I know some do it but who cares. All of my limited editions are displayed in my collection and i love every each one of them. And i agree with most of your last post. Thats is exactly what I am saying. let the artist sell his craft to people who admire the craft. That is exactly word for word the note I sent to jackson a few days ago. Just do a few decks for serious collectors and ignore the whining mass. It seems your beef is against people who sell on ebay, which in the end who cares what they do. It is a free market and if someone is willing to pay that price then more power to him. How does it affect your life that a guy would buy a deck and sell it. Isn't that what free market is?
Why would you care about something that does not affect you in any way? It goes back to my original argument

[Widdee]

Regardless of whether a person collects for the love of the hobby or to sell on eBay , I think a designer can be fair to all, and please all, by putting out their project program with stretch goals up front and sticking to it. I doubt Jackson would have gotten any guff if he'd thrown an extrememely limited gilded version as a stretch goal up front. People would have frothed at the mouth over it. But any time you move the goal posts you're gonna piss people off. Jackson has very loyal fans, this one included, and he's better off in the long run sticking to his program than making some extra change on a smal group of overruns.

ETA- This is why we get so infuriated by the big boys who promise us a limited edition of one time offer and then change the rules. And it's one of the reasons KS gets about 90% of my money, because most do stick to their plan.

[Eoghann]

Yep, while I foam at the mouth with scalpers, the gist of my point is that limited editions have the potential of being magnificent and unique works of art. Artists shouldn't settle for tuck swaps or seals when charging a high price could easily give room for a real treasure.

Although, you have pointed out that Lotrek's signature edition is technically a tuck swap. But there are several differences from a "same deck/different tuck/high price" approach that make me blur the lines. For one, the LE with different back and tuck is the same price as the standard. The SE is a limited, hand crafted item, unique by its own creation. Unlike my go to opposite the black book of cards, charging a high price for a bicycle logo and a wax seal. To some people that's justified, to me it could be so much more.

As I said before, canceling the guilded run was a loss for many. I don't consider it a victory. I never objected to the concept of guilded edges; I did however, object that it wasn't handled during the campaign where everyone had an (arguably) fair shot. Offering them after market would leave room for scalpers to hoard them all and charge true collectors an arm and a leg for them.

While the guilded run is an unfortunate casualty, I feel it was instrumental in paving the way for greatness in future projects, as we can witness with the Independence LE.

While we differ on some aspects, we don't have vastly polarizing ways of viewing things. And by no means has any of this been taken personally. I'm thrilled I finally got an opinion from "the other side".

Thanks Pierre.

[Widdee]

No big deal Pierre. I would have loved to get my meat hooks on a guilded deck too, but I understand why people who bought the limiteds thinking they were going to be the big poohbah of the project as well.

[badpete69]

Yes i agree.... all good discussion.

And I agree with the aspect that if I cannot buy a deck because one scalper bought the entire lot, it is indeed maddening but the only thing I would say to that is just limit the purchase to 1 deck a buyer. If a buyer creates 100 different account with 100 addresses to buy the entire lot, he could easily create 100 kickstarter accounts.

What i could not understand is why would people be pissed at jackson. I admit I did not read every single comments but why be mad at him. When UUSI decided to do the pagan gilded deck ,they sent a note saying hey guys we are only making 60 (or w/e the number was) gilded decks and will sell them to the first 60 people who message us. To me that is the same thing as doing it after the KS is done. i do not remember any outcry

And when I hear that someone is mad that a gilded deck is being produced because it will devalue their other decks means to me that the only reason they collect is for the resale. Value of anything you collect should be a collateral aspect of the hobby not the main reason except of course if your only reason to collect baseball cards, stamps or w/e is to immediately make a buck .

Wow did we beat a dead horse today or what hehehe

[Eoghann]

His thread just happens to be more raw I guess. I wanted to clarify that while indeed there is a large portion of "whiners" and people looking to make a quick buck out there, and it's easy to lump and label us into that group; I wanted to speak for the ones that don't fall into that category. And I have no problem coming up with however amount is required to get them when I feel the price is just.

We discussed with other moderators and admins, so I'll make it public: personal attacks towards artists will not be tolerated here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But comments that aren't above calling someone lazy, uninspired and a money grubbing thief will be dealt with accordingly. We have a strong and mature community and I'm proud to be a part of it. But we need to remember that behind the username is a human being. And even if they have a tough skin, there are weak spots. So we need to moderate ourselves on how we approach subjects.

Alright people, I think we can finally lay this horse to rest.

Group hug!

[Mike Ratledge]

What i could not understand is why would people be pissed at jackson. I admit I did not read every single comments but why be mad at him. When UUSI decided to do the pagan gilded deck ,they sent a note saying hey guys we are only making 60 (or w/e the number was) gilded decks and will sell them to the first 60 people who message us. To me that is the same thing as doing it after the KS is done. i do not remember any outcry

I'm pretty certain that I remember it being 60 decks as well. Checking the Pagan project "Updates" would confirm it, fairly certain.

In fact they sold those for $75, and the balance that they made are going for $125 on their website, so I'm glad I went for one when they were offered. Clearly off-topic for this thread, but while we're talking about it...

[bamabenz]

The LTD Independence decks took many days to run out. I suspect that this means that Jackson priced them pretty just about right, balancing supply, demand and price. The reserva requiem decks, pagan gilded, grotesque signature decks all involved hand processing and could easily have sold more or commanded higher pricing. I suspect that all the creators had more than profit in mind, and I thank them for their creativity and hard work. I hope never to see those decks on eBay, as I'd like to believe that they were all bought by passionate collectors -- even if someone got multiples.

[JacksonRobinson]

My following comments don't really matter now but I think it is worth you guys knowing some more info about the Gilded Edges.

Q: Why didn't you offer the gilded edges during the project?
A: I didn't offer the gilded edges during the project because I didn't finally get the approval to do them from USPC until after the project was over. Until the Sherlock project came along USPC had a 10,000 deck minimum to do gilded edges. They actually all but discontinued the service. My own collecting is focused on vintage decks and 9 out of 10 vintage decks in my collection have gilded edges. The main reason I pushed and pulled with USPSC was I desperately didn't want gilded edges, no matter how small of an added on, to be yet another thing thing USPC had dropped just because it wasn't being used. I also was pushing them (Using the leverage I had gain and the exposure I had given USPC from the Feds success) to help bring weight behind my requests. All of these requests happened before the start of the project but didn't come to a resolution until after. However I wasn't going to let one single item like gilded edges stop me from rolling on with my project.

I also wanted to make gilded edges more accessible for other creators, and in doing so my I was able to drastically lower the minimum from 10,000 to 144.

Some other thoughts:

As card collectors we always we are conditioned to paying the cheapest price for in most cases really crappy decks that have no thought into them, and have no attention to detail. Are my decks expensive compared to other decks, absolutely. I have striven to make my deck different than the majority of the crap that is produced at the highest runs and the lowest production cost so the most products can be moved.

We always gripe about USPC not being able to do this or not be able to do that, but in reality it is our faults as collectors that they have done away with things like, perfect registration, metallic foiling on cards, gilded edges. They have done away with those because we don't demand the highest quality of product from card companies and designers. We demand (with our wallets) the 15th recoloring of a bland deck that barely even printed on nice stock, and has no attention to detail. The only detail that is being paid attention too is making the deck cost under $2.00 to print so their margins will be high. I will be happy the day ANY of my decks cost under $5 a deck to make. We as collectors have guided USPC and other card companies where they are today when more beautiful cards were being produced on far inferior equipment a hundred plus years ago.

The Gilded edges is another great example of this casualty. Was I going at it to be a "Shrewd Greedy business man?" Absolutely not. Why would I go back and forth with USPC over a small thing like gilded edges when I was only going produce 144. In the span of time that I was pushing USPC to do gilded edges for me I could have design an entirely new deck and made piles more profit of the sell of that then 144 special decks.

I wanted to do the gilded edges for the simple fact that I didn't want the entire card community to loose yet another thing do to the majorities spending habbits.

I originally wanted to make the LE Bakerstreets have the same finish as the Jerry's Nuggets. (Smooth on one side and embossed on the other) but just like the gilding that is a feature that USPC can no longer do because they have sold off the equipment to do it just because there wasn't a need or demand for it. Same reason there is no such thing as Cambrich, Linen, or Lenoid finish anymore.

My feelings aren't hurt at all about this. I already have gilded edges in the works for another deck that will not be on Kickstarter.

The only thing I ask is to be mindful that our sometimes laser focused attention to "Buy Low Sell High" as a collector over times erodes the very art that we all love, because it drives the direction of the companies in which make the products that we buy. My decks are expensive, because I pay a higher price both with production and my time to create the decks. In my eyes there are only about 3-4 companies/designers who are really pushing the envelope and propelling the craft forward, the rest are settling for "just ok" and putting out decks that show it. Demand the best, demand the highest standards and if its not to those standards (my decks included) don't spending your money. Go take you mom out for dinner, take your kids to the ice cream store, go to your favorite pizza place and buy the pizza that you know is the best anywhere, but please don't by a crappy deck, because buying a crappy deck just because you are a card collector just means that "they" will keep making crappy cards.

[Eoghann]

Thanks so much for the insight Jackson! That last paragraph is specially noteworthy. Always pushing for greatness.

[Encarded]

This is why I like you Jackson. Bravo, in my humble opinion.

[Mike Ratledge]

Good points all around, and heck - half of us never see the cards inside the decks at all, so how would we know about 'registration' problems? We wouldn't know if they were all blank cards or just a piece of something the right weight, for that matter.

Thanks, Jackson! I'm glad I didn't post what I really felt in the comments section on Independence because I would have scorched a few little rumps... My feeling was that everybody had already read that "epic novella" I was talking about - four or five times from the 1 - count them: 1 - person that chose to be vocal. (and 3 or 4 people that jumped in to defend you with enough stuff to read for a week when combined)

Let's not let the hobby be driven by one 'squeaky wheel', and kudos to you for being wise enough to just ignore them - for the most part.

[volantangel]

Good points all around, and heck - half of us never see the cards inside the decks at all, so how would we know about 'registration' problems? We wouldn't know if they were all blank cards or just a piece of something the right weight, for that matter.

Thanks, Jackson! I'm glad I didn't post what I really felt in the comments section on Independence because I would have scorched a few little rumps...

I can tell the quality of the deck just by shaking it you know ! Bike stock and Bee stock sounds different ! (ok i was just kidding, i open most of my decks XD)

I really like how jackson is pushing for boundaries, to bring back the old stuff and to create new things. Keep up the good work !

[bamabenz]

Jackson -- since most of the LTD decks won't be used for actual card playing (sad to say!) would it make sense to print them with the USPCC ivory finish? I often find myself looking closely at the Fed 52 decks and being distracted by the grid. I love the Bee decks I have that are smooth...

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

I really like how jackson is pushing for boundaries, to bring back the old stuff and to create new things. Keep up the good work !

Agreed, really looking forward to this project

[sprouts1115]

When I contacted the USPCC and wanted to know all the options they had, they told me the minimum for gilded edges was 15,000 decks. Knowing that Jackson got them down to 10,000 decks is encouraging. It seems the USPCC does not like making gilded edges for some reason. Unless you are a casino or Jackson forget about gilded edges they are out of reach. The reason I inquired about gilded edges, a hundred years ago they were not uncommon for the first run of a deck. If Jackson can get them to 10,000 decks, he can also get them down to 5,000 decks which in our eyes is a limited deck. Maybe Jackson should change his mold into doing gilded edges for the first run. I'm sure he will have many more decks in the future we all know he is just only getting started. If the deck is successful after a 5000 run of gilded edges, he could make a limited run of 10,0000 without gilded edges. As a collector you would be stupid to open or use your gilded edge deck. Gilded edges is a lost upgrade that should come back and I'm glad Jackson made the attempt...

[MagikFingerz]

When I contacted the USPCC and wanted to know all the options they had, they told me the minimum for gilded edges was 15,000 decks. Knowing that Jackson got them down to 10,000 decks is encouraging.

I also wanted to make gilded edges more accessible for other creators, and in doing so my I was able to drastically lower the minimum from 10,000 to 144.

[Sher]

I already have gilded edges in the works for another deck that will not be on Kickstarter.

So excited for this!!! But what about the Independence deck? Would it be possible to get gilded edges on those? Or the upcoming military series of playing cards? Just curious

[Mike Ratledge]

I already have gilded edges in the works for another deck that will not be on Kickstarter.

So excited for this!!! But what about the Independence deck? Would it be possible to get gilded edges on those? Or the upcoming military series of playing cards? Just curious

As Tom noted, he got them to agree to do a gross (dozen dozen or shipping case of 144 decks), so it's entirely possible that he can! The military decks are going to be printed by Expert PCC, though...