Crowded Court - handmade(?) playing cards

[blejanre]

Hi!

Earlier this year I made a playing card. It was to explore an idea that I had as a kid to make an entire deck of court cards. Just as 13s are Kings, 12s are Queens and Jacks are worth 11, I dreamed that for each rank a courtier would be represented. Over the past months I've been drawing cards to kind of feel this idea out. It may still be viable but my thinking right now is to include some pip cards in the deck. Time will tell. So far, the high value cards are working the best - Here they are, the suits are repsectively Hearts, Diamonds, Spades.

Kings:

Queens:

Jacks (Princes/Knights):

10s (Princesses):

A quick note on modifications that haven't been made yet: the princesses will all have empty hands, the spade princess giving her flower to the queen, who will lose the sword.

There are no clubs yet because I am struggling with a pattern for the cloak.The hairstyle for clubs will be "dark curly" represented by black teardrops. Ideas or suggestions for clubs are welcome.

Indices and indicators are absent, but will be included.

Diamonds and Hearts will likely be printed in red ink instead of black. Probably a darker red.

The poor photo quality is due to not having a computer, sorry.


I'd like any and all feedback, likes, dislikes, desires, critiques, opinions. What do you think of an all court card deck? What do you think of the messy linework? It could be traced in photoshop and cleaned up, or dressed up.

The reason I put "handmade?" in the title is because I am considering printing them myself at a local printshop using traditional printing methods. What do you think of that idea? (I think it would be a lot of work, but freakin sweet! Likely, a 500 or so print run)

Anyways, this is my first deck and I feel it could go in many directions. Let me know what you think.

[Eoghann]

I like the handmade look of it. And the all courts idea sounds interesting, but it all depends how it's developed.

Maybe the lower the card, the lower the rank? Perhaps rearrange them to show proper rank: King, Queen, prince, princess, duke, duchess, knight, squire, page and so forth down to the jester?

[montecarlojoe]

I like the idea but I'm not sure how the Jacks should be dealt with in the new order. Jacks traditionally are servants more akin to Squires (as in their other common name - Knave).

Knights used to have a card in the court (and would have been ranked higher than the Jack) before they were dropped in favour of the system we use now.

Ooh and are Aces high or low? lol

[blejanre]

Maybe the lower the card, the lower the rank? Perhaps rearrange them to show proper rank: King, Queen, prince, princess, duke, duchess, knight, squire, page and so forth down to the jester?

That's the idea. My original ranking went (from Ace to King) Child, Beggar, Thief, Player (actor), Farmer, Smith, Witch, Priest, ?, Princess, Prince, Queen, King.

pic-

But as I was noticing how much better my courts were working across suits, compared to the "peasant" ranks, it occured to me that it might be better to have "court" ranks only - like you suggest, Duke, Duchess, Squire, Page, etc etc. That way they can all be dressed using like motifs on their clothes within a suit. If I did that now, It would seem strange that the peasants were wearing the same fabrics as the royals.

I also really like the idea of jokers being included in the ranked cards, that leaves room for something fun for the jokers!

So how about this:

K- King
Q- Queen
J- Prince
10- Princess
9- Duke or Lord
8- Duchhess or Lady
7- Knight
6- Squire
5- Trumpeter or Minstrel
4- Page
3- Cook
2- Fool
A- Castle? Emblem? Animal? Big Pip?

I like the idea but I'm not sure how the Jacks should be dealt with in the new order. Jacks traditionally are servants more akin to Squires (as in their other common name - Knave).

Knights used to have a card in the court (and would have been ranked higher than the Jack) before they were dropped in favour of the system we use now.

Ooh and are Aces high or low? lol

Yes, Aces are a bit tricky. Since it really does vary from game to game, it would be good for the ace to have an image that could be comfortably interpreted as high or low. That's why my suggestions above were mostly inanimate, that makes the ace unlike the others, either special, or lesser.

As for jacks, I'm not overly concerned with following the conventions of a traditional deck. That being said, neither do I want to alienate consumers, but I think different Jacks are easy enough to digest. Let me know if you disagree.

[Eoghann]

How about aces being the coat of arms?

[montecarlojoe]

I like the idea of the Ace being the castle (representing the Kingdom) - Greater than everyone, but the foundation on which they all stand (High and low)

I'm cool with the Jack being a prince or something else - but if it keeps the J index it might be confusing (to some)

Squire and Page are more or less the same thing aren't they?

You could still have the jokers as jokers - but have four of them - one for each court as you'll have the Ad/Gaff slots you can use (Sprouts pioneered this but I'm sure he wouldn't mind!)

You could even go fully noble (there are LOADS of ranks to choose from)

A Castle
K King
Q Queen
J Duke
10 Duchess
9 Prince
8 Princess
7 Viceroy
6 Vicereine
5 Earl
4 Countess
3 Knight
2 Dame

[tabx]

They look great. For the Clubs you could do black hair with white outlines, the inverse of what you have for the middle ones (Diamonds?) at the moment, and for their clothes you could have black scales with white outlines, the inverse of the ones on the right (Spades?). The scales could be larger and you could change the ones on the Spades to be larger and pointier (Clubs=rounded, Spades=pointy).

If you want to base it on the UK Peerage then you can have a full court:

Ace Shield/Coat of Arms/Castle
13 King
12 Queen
11 Duke
10 Duchess
9 Marquess
8 Marchioness
7 Earl
6 Countess
5 Viscount
4 Viscountess
3 Baron
2 Baroness

Or if you want the peerage and nobility:
(I quite like the idea of this version, but with two of the suits female for 2 to 9 e.g. 9D & 9C Dukes and 9H & 9S Duchesses, or even Black suits male, Red female - reverse that if you want it to make sense with Yin=Black=Female, Yang=Red=Male)

Ace Shield/Coat of Arms/Castle
13 King
12 Queen
11 Prince
10 Princess
9 Duke
8 Marquess
7 Earl
6 Viscount
5 Baron
4 Baronet
3 Knight
2 Clan Chief or Laird (or commoner?)

[NCarter]

I love hand drawn cards, there is always something more "personal" when they are hand drawn.

Reminds me a lot of the old Mantegna Tarocchi decks.

[blejanre]

NCarter, I agree with you whole heartedly, I just don't know if that's what the card collectors want... I think it's usually best to follow your insticts though, and make a product that you think is awesome. And I see what you mean about the Tarocchi cards, I think it would be really fun to make a Tarot version of this deck eventually.

tabx, I like both your lists of ranks. The only problem is the fact that the average person wouldn't be able to look at the cards and know, right off the bat "oh yeah, that one's a Baron and that must be Marchioness. If I went that route, I would surely have to print the names of the rank somewhere on the card, which is an option, but not one that I am overly fond of. Once I get clubs sorted out I will start to tackle the rest of these pesky courtiers and see what works.

Same goes for you montecarlojoe, I like the list but ideally I want the ranks to be easily distinguished. At this point I am leaning towards a less crowded court,, but one that is easily interpreteded, with the lower ranks being regular pip cards. As for Page vs. Squire, my GoT knowledge tells me that a squire is like a knights apprentice/helper, carrying weapons and putting on armor etc., where a page is more akin to a cupbearer, usually a young child who brings everyone coffee. Er, I mean beer... or whatever. That's a fiction series though, so I'm not sure IRL.

Thanks for the suggestions though, I really appreciate it!





Here's what's been going on with clubs. These are a few of the ideas I played around with

I drew this today and am pretty happy with the cloak/shirt design. I like it better than the other club concepts anyways. c&c welcome.

[TGunitedcardists]

I think this project has some promise, but only if you go with the standard playing card route. This idea of dukes, princes, knights and squires etc. won't fly.

I suggest, in your style, choose your best 4 kings, 4 queens and 4 jacks and do conventional number cards.

With the talk of all these extra people, it's sounding more like a card game than playing cards.

[blejanre]

Got the chance to use a computer with photoshop today... turns out I have no idea how to use photoshop. Nevertheless, here's what I came up with in terms of indices, suit indicators, pips, and colours.





I have decided to got with four courts, each 10 rank having a "princess" illustration. I would really like to keep it that way, and feel there are some good arguments for why it's a good idea.

p.s. the font is only temporary. At some point I'll experiment with that too.

[TGunitedcardists]

I'm more of a tradionalist.

I suggest lose the borders and keep the pips on the left (like Queen of Spades) not like the others.

Honestly, I find the 10 of Clubs with the princess confusing. Wouldn't work for poker and many card games. Make her another Queen!

[MagikFingerz]

Have to agree with TG on the 10's, making only that card into a fourth court makes no sense. Either go all in like you originally planned, or go traditional. The former is more risky in terms of what works and whether people will like it or not, but anything in between is less likely to fly at all.

[sprouts1115]

NCarter - You are spot on. http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks02/d0036 ... 0text.html Hofamterspiel's deck too. Master of the Playing Cards was playing around with social classes back then.

montecarlojoe - I didn't pioneer it. A Joker for every suit has been done since the 1950's. What do I do with these 2 Ad cards? Later in life, I'm starting to believe everything has already been invented. I just figured the Joker has been around for 150 years why not give each a suit. The Ace today is considered the high and low card. In Tarot cards, the Fool is considered the High or Low card. The only rule for my deck (K)ing, (Q)ueen, (B)ishop, (C)avalier, (J)ack. 5 face cards with the Ace being always low. Cards have been around for 600 years. In the first 400 years , the Ace was always low. With the possibility of having the Ten card be the the castle or (T)ower card. The player could invent a new game to bring the Joker into action. The Joker could be the new Ace. High or Low...

tabx - Jump into the rabbit hole and see lots of cards. You need to work on your transition. There are like 5 almost 6 ways to divide the card. The two opposite images need to blend together. Yours are a bit to horizontal.

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/

Check out Jackson's and Encarded decks Here I don't see Midnight's cards. They should be there.

[blejanre]

I suggest lose the borders and keep the pips on the left (like Queen of Spades) not like the others.

Will try it without the borders, I've been thinking about it for a while.
I can easily flip the images where the suit indicators are on the far side, I will definitely try that out. I didn't know that it made a difference which side of the head the pip was on, I always thought it was kind of redundant for the big indicator to be right next to the suit index but you may be right. That being said, I don't consider myself a traditionalist an will be hesitant to change things just for the sake of keeping with the fashion of standard courts.

Honestly, I find the 10 of Clubs with the princess confusing. Wouldn't work for poker and many card games. Make her another Queen!

I thought poker would be one of the games that a fourth court would actually improve. A royal flush would consist of 4 royals and a high card, instead of 3 royals, a high card, and a ten. I legitimately am really curious though, what problems would the princess cause, in which games? I would really love some examples, because I don't see it. As for being confusing, I can only imagine it being confusing the first time using the deck, or for the first time in a while. And as for whether or not it will fly, if I decide to do a KS campaign for it, the ten can be easily swapped out for a normal pip card at any time before printing.

Sprouts, I think your last comment was intended for me. Thanks for the links. I do see what you mean about the transistions. It's not really a problem for me, I think the images work as a whole; does anyone else think the transitions need more work? What are the 6 ways to divide a card, this sounds like a specific thing that I haven't heard of?

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it.

[TGunitedcardists]

I thought poker would be one of the games that a fourth court would actually improve. A royal flush would consist of 4 royals and a high card, instead of 3 royals, a high card, and a ten. I legitimately am really curious though, what problems would the princess cause, in which games? I would really love some examples, because I don't see it. As for being confusing, I can only imagine it being confusing the first time using the deck, or for the first time in a while. And as for whether or not it will fly, if I decide to do a KS campaign for it, the ten can be easily swapped out for a normal pip card at any time before printing.

Sprouts, I think your last comment was intended for me. Thanks for the links. I do see what you mean about the transistions. It's not really a problem for me, I think the images work as a whole; does anyone else think the transitions need more work? What are the 6 ways to divide a card, this sounds like a specific thing that I haven't heard of?

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it.

It would be confusing. Keep the 10 a number card.

I too would like to know what the 6 ways to divide a card are...

[blejanre]

Played around with the borders and such a bit. Part of the problem is that when I started designing the deck, I just drew the art giving little consideration to the other elements of the card. Now I'm stuck trying to make the composition work.
I'm leaning toward keeping the borders. I'd really like to know whether or not you care which side of the card the suit indicator goes. Is it widely prefered on the left, by the index?



I wasn't really feeling the solid red, so tried only having red pips. I like it, and will probably end up doing something like that. Thoughts?



Queen with the same colouring:

[sprouts1115]

I thought poker would be one of the games that a fourth court would actually improve. A royal flush would consist of 4 royals and a high card, instead of 3 royals, a high card, and a ten. I legitimately am really curious though, what problems would the princess cause, in which games? I would really love some examples, because I don't see it. As for being confusing, I can only imagine it being confusing the first time using the deck, or for the first time in a while. And as for whether or not it will fly, if I decide to do a KS campaign for it, the ten can be easily swapped out for a normal pip card at any time before printing.

Sprouts, I think your last comment was intended for me. Thanks for the links. I do see what you mean about the transistions. It's not really a problem for me, I think the images work as a whole; does anyone else think the transitions need more work? What are the 6 ways to divide a card, this sounds like a specific thing that I haven't heard of?

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it.

It would be confusing. Keep the 10 a number card.

I too would like to know what the 6 ways to divide a card are...

Well, you got 1) Horizontal, 2) Diagonal, 3) Ribbon, 4) Object 5) Cloth 6) 1-sided transition?

Here is a good example of Object:

Screenshot 2015-12-07 21.43.28.png (95.64 KiB) Viewed 3494 times

[shermjack]

I kinda like the border around the KoC and the QoH, but I really like the multicolour JoD as it is clean and the contrast is nice With that being said, can you re-draw the second KoC with the stick on the right and the QoH with the flower on the right (like the JoD)?

[TGunitedcardists]

King of Clubs: #2, but round out the edges near the hands/arms.
Jack of Diamonds: #5

If you're going with the hand drawn look, it should continue with the lettering. You're better off writing K, Q, J and Joker and the numbers instead of using a font.

[montecarlojoe]

I thought poker would be one of the games that a fourth court would actually improve. A royal flush would consist of 4 royals and a high card, instead of 3 royals, a high card, and a ten. I legitimately am really curious though, what problems would the princess cause, in which games? I would really love some examples, because I don't see it. As for being confusing, I can only imagine it being confusing the first time using the deck, or for the first time in a while. And as for whether or not it will fly, if I decide to do a KS campaign for it, the ten can be easily swapped out for a normal pip card at any time before printing.

Sprouts, I think your last comment was intended for me. Thanks for the links. I do see what you mean about the transistions. It's not really a problem for me, I think the images work as a whole; does anyone else think the transitions need more work? What are the 6 ways to divide a card, this sounds like a specific thing that I haven't heard of?

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it.

It would be confusing. Keep the 10 a number card.

I too would like to know what the 6 ways to divide a card are...

Well, you got 1) Horizontal, 2) Diagonal, 3) Ribbon, 4) Object 5) Cloth 6) 1-sided transition?

Here is a good example of Object:

Screenshot 2015-12-07 21.43.28.png

Well really you only describe two ways there:

A) Horizontal and Diagonal are the SAME. You are talking about a continuous design where there is no obvious line of transition because the design is rotationally symmetrical. In fact that is what we mean by "2 way" - technically we should say "Rotational symmetry of 2 about the centre of the card". Where you put your imaginary line in the design process is utterly irrelevant - as long as it goes through that centre point!

B) Ribbon / object / Cloth are all the same thing too - they are devices to cover the transition so you don't have to bother. I have heard said that the use in the picture posted by Sprouticus above is a 'genius' use of the device. I think it's lazy - nice as the art is.

The cloth link does highlight something though - a brilliant design doesn't necessarily have to be rotationally symmetrical.

I would suggest that there are two classes of design going on here:

Transition:
A) Continuous (smooth / layered, integrated design, no obvious "join")
B) Masked (No integration, but some graphical device used cover the transition line)
C) Broken (No integration, no masking device)

Rotational Design
1) True 2 way - rotational symmetry - identical rotated by 180 degrees.
2) Pseudo 2 way - Mimics Rotational Symmetry - not truely symmetrical when rotated 180 degrees
3) 1-way - no attempt at rotational symmetry

In total you have 7 combinations there (6 if you discount 1 way design)

[sprouts1115]

montecarlojoe - You lost your agreement when you said "Horizontal and Diagonal are the Same" They are different in playing cards. Think about it...

If you want to go farther something is either a wave or a particle. Lawrence Krauss is a particle.

[montecarlojoe]

Tell you what sprouts - you show me examples of a true two way horizontal design and an true two way diagonal design, and I'll show you how there's no difference - deal?

[NCarter]

I still like the direction that this deck is going.

I look forward to seeing it live.

[blejanre]

It's been a little while since I've updated but I wanted to let you guys know that I am still chugging away at this slowly but surely. At this point, I have decided with a certainty to go the hand-made route. I will be printing the cards at a local print studio, with a fairly small run - I'm thinking an edition of 200-500 decks. I'll prepare an image of the uncut sheet, and use that to laser-cut a negative onto a single wooden plate - both backside and front. Using a jig for registration, I will then print the woodblocks, backside and front. Next step will be coating. Ideally, I'd like to use a homemade concoction. I've got a recipe, but I can't seem to find a seller for cellulose acetate in quantities less than 1 metric ton. I can't afford that shit. I also don't know how cost effective the recipe will be. Once the sheets are coated I will send them off to a local business to be cut, because rounding 43 000 to 100 000 corners is not a one man job. Slip those puppies into a hand made tuck constructed of heavy rag paper and I figure you're looking at a product unlike anything that's currently on the playing card market. High quality materials, hand made, artisan playing cards. What do you guys think?

I've made a rough image for the uncut that I'm going to print on a big digital printer (hopefully) sometime this week. Just as a prototype to test the coating on and see how the design plays out on actual cards. It's a bit of a large image, but here it is. http://i.imgur.com/mjnk3NF.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since the digital printer has unreliable registration, I have modified the back design to be one-way, but this is more or less what it is going to look like:



Thanks for any feedback!

[montecarlojoe]

Much as I like the pattern, one-way by design on the back is a step in the wrong direction.
It'll look weird when you have cards randomly one way or the other in the deck...

[blejanre]

Nobody was really following the link so here's an actual image of what I've got. Looking for feedback on indices, jokers, pip cards, general thoughts.

Much as I like the pattern, one-way by design on the back is a step in the wrong direction.
It'll look weird when you have cards randomly one way or the other in the deck...

I'm only using the one-way backs on the prototype because the printer at the studio has unreliable registration. The final product will be done with a two-way version of that pattern.

[TGunitedcardists]

You have 2 black jokers. I suggest you make the stars on one of them red. It's always nice to have 1 joker of each color for card games.

[blejanre]

Good suggestion, I will for sure switch one of the stars to red.

I'm also considering using a commercial playing card coating, as it's proving difficult to make my own, especially on a small budget. Do you think that kills the hand made appeal?

[sprouts1115]

blejanre - If your talking about a master for making playing cards, MPC (MakePlayingCards.com) is good for small number of decks and gives a standard like USPCC, EPCC, and LPCC...