What is the problem with the major card sites?

[Strag]

Just a list of what's happens in JUST the past 6 weeks or so;

The Blue Crown; Shipped the Altruism and White Owls with an extra card without telling anyone ahead of time.
Ellusionist; Their "special" Black Club turns out to be not so special, they don't even advise members when things are going on sale as promised and have allowed special bargains for other members who joined later (extra deck).
HOPC; Promised no duplicates in their variety bricks and yet there are reports of multiple duplicates received. Very few premium decks have been received.
Theory 11; Shipped the Artisan decks VERY late without telling anyone it was a pre-sale, and now there are multiple reports of mis-registered backs. Note that if they really did have to stuff these into tuck boxes themselves, how were the misprinted backs unnoticed?
Dan & Dave; Hyped Smoke & Mirrors v.7 and yet for most this has been a big disappointment and pretty much only released (so far) as a $90 box set.

It really seems like they are missing the boat. Yes, some of the above are relatively minor but the whole holiday series of fiascoes (and mostly un-responsive customer support) smacks of an industry that just doesn't care about their customers. The smaller companies like CCCC and Encarded are doing a much better job of listening.

[MJF]

Not too mention, they all seem to depend too heavily on social media to address any issues, when they each have their own website they could use for that very purpose. Props goes to Tannens, Magic Apple, and the other smaller production shops that delivered more bang for the buck this holiday and didn't give me the headaches the big guys did...

[darkinertia]

i actually like that they tell us through say facebook or twitter lol makes it way easier on them to get a hold of us and keep us updated

but yeah my biggest complaint is dan and daves v7 and how theyve been dealing with the criticism ESPECIALLY fulton. not only does he blow off everyone with questions or concerns with a "if you dont like it, smurf off" kind of attitude, but if he doesnt like what you ask or said, he deletes your posts instead of addressing it...im not talking troll posts either. some of them are decent cards but they took SOOO many wrong turns with the decisions its funny thinking that i sat there waiting for hours for the v7s to go up

[alric]

I think the market for producing custom playing cards is getting too saturated. The bigger companies are feeling competition from smaller companies and all the Kickstarter releases. Maybe a lot of the KS decks are crappy, but there are some seriously talented people out there that are giving E, T11, and D&D a run for their money, and these decks are produced in quantities of 5000 or less, which are quantities most of the bigger companies overhype as rare or limited.

So in order to compete and remain relevant, most of the bigger companies resort to over-hyping and over-selling, which leads us to inevitably be disappointed and underwhelmed with the actual product in many instances. It also seems like producing custom playing cards have become more of a blatant cash grab. (See S&M v.7 as exhibit 1). And yeah, Fulton is a prick - I find it very appropriate he's so affiliated with Dan and Dave......

[vjose32]

Totally agree with all of that. Theory11 also doesn't like criticisms or accusations as they've gone so far as to block me on both their Twitter and Facebook accounts, mostly related to the ultra rare Gold Monarchs.

[Andrei Jikh]

Totally agree with all of that. Theory11 also doesn't like criticisms or accusations as they've gone so far as to block me on both their Twitter and Facebook accounts, mostly related to the ultra rare Gold Monarchs.

Do we like criticisms? Sure, if they're constructive, but we like positive feedback better ha!

Do we like accusations? That seems like a rhetorical question. Accusations are usually untrue. You were blocked/deleted probably because there were better ways to address your issue. Either way, I'd be more than happy to personally clarify said complaints.

[decksparadise]

Agreed with the above.

[darkinertia]

i think what alric said was pretty spot on. while i dont really think oversaturation is a bad thing necessarily, the competition is ALWAYS a good thing. it forces everyone to do better and create more loyal customers...some, like D&D and others(not too sure cuz i personally havent had problems with t11 or E) arent doing a good job at making loyal customers anymore, im done with the hype... unless its hype for the fontaine deck

i personally love that independant companies are actually able to flourish *bad pun* in the cardistry community, it seems like thats happening a lot in most forms of media, whether its youtube, video games or music, the indie guys have grown in most forms of media and i love it...ill still get my t11/e decks all day dont get me wrong

[Fluffykitten]

i think what alric said was pretty spot on. while i dont really think oversaturation is a bad thing necessarily, the competition is ALWAYS a good thing. it forces everyone to do better and create more loyal customers...some, like D&D and others(not too sure cuz i personally havent had problems with t11 or E) arent doing a good job at making loyal customers anymore, im done with the hype... unless its hype for the fontaine deck

i personally love that independant companies are actually able to flourish *bad pun* in the cardistry community, it seems like thats happening a lot in most forms of media, whether its youtube, video games or music, the indie guys have grown in most forms of media and i love it...ill still get my t11/e decks all day dont get me wrong

i agree with this, i'm new but what really got me into collecting was kickstarter and some of the great decks i saw there: brimstone, which i saw and missed. but there were others that i got americana, call of cthulu (which is amazing). sure there are some decks that shall we say "are not my style" Pedale, to name one. but a little competition makes everyone work a little harder.

[darkinertia]

oh yeah seriously, i just got the green call of Cthulhu deck yesterday, and its one of my favorite decks right now...the borders are so thin and it just looks amazing! great example of what can be done on kickstarter. there is a lot of bad ones coming out right now, but i think those are mainly because those people arent exactly cardists.

now what would be a great PR move is if companies like theory11 or ellusionist pick up some of these talented artists and either partner with them or even bankroll and sell their decks, because the hardest part about kickstarter decks is the wait :/

[Fluffykitten]

oh yeah seriously, i just got the green call of Cthulhu deck yesterday, and its one of my favorite decks right now...the borders are so thin and it just looks amazing! great example of what can be done on kickstarter. there is a lot of bad ones coming out right now, but i think those are mainly because those people arent exactly cardists.

now what would be a great PR move is if companies like theory11 or ellusionist pick up some of these talented artists and either partner with them or even bankroll and sell their decks, because the hardest part about kickstarter decks is the wait :/

the guys you did the cthulhu deck are extremely talented and i told them if they joined up with a place like t11 and added some embossing and foil onto the box it would be a very well selling deck. their green backs sold on ebay for $24-$39. which is crazy, not in a bad way but in a this is an example of how good the work was crazy. you have other decks charging 15$ when in my opinion the artwork doesnt want that price.

so yes there is a lot of crap on kickstarter however many of the worst decks arent getting funded so that i think is good for the card world and many decks that might not otherwise see daylight are being made and i think challenging the industry to do better.

theory11 i am talking to you: CUSTOM COURT CARDS.

[DukeBoy]

theory11 i am talking to you: CUSTOM COURT CARDS.

The problem with this is that T11 D&D and several of the other card companies Bread and Butter is magicians. And they need a deck they can show the audience and they recognize. So they can have custom pips and amazing, or not amazing backs, and even color changes but they have to be something the audience can look at and say yes this is a standard/normal deck. There will be some decks they will put out but the large number of decks have to fit in a square hole when some of us want a star deck.

[Andrei Jikh]

theory11 i am talking to you: CUSTOM COURT CARDS.

The problem with this is that T11 D&D and several of the other card companies Bread and Butter is magicians. And they need a deck they can show the audience and they recognize. So they can have custom pips and amazing, or not amazing backs, and even color changes but they have to be something the audience can look at and say yes this is a standard/normal deck. There will be some decks they will put out but the large number of decks have to fit in a square hole when some of us want a star deck.

Yep that's very true, the audience needs to recognize the decks/faces. While I love the custom aspect of it (to an extent), it needs to be fully functional (for magic at least) hence why we haven't been producing many custom faces. Steve Cohen just called recently, he's an amazing magician. Had nothing but praise and curse words for the Artisans haha. That guy does NOT swear - ever.

That said, I remember when we released the Sentinels which had custom faces. Had a GREAT response overall but quite a few people here complained they were custom faces, so we stopped making/focusing on custom faces. Can't please everyone!

Personally though, custom faces are more of a novelty thing rather than a timeless design, unless the style otherwise dictates. It just depends on your taste and personal preference but I certainly don't agree that a deck without custom faces is laziness. It's like saying anyone who doesn't emboss/deboss/foil and use custom tax stamp seals is creating horribly bad and lazy tuck cases - which isn't true. It's a personal choice. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's all subjective and just depends.

[Fluffykitten]

theory11 i am talking to you: CUSTOM COURT CARDS.

The problem with this is that T11 D&D and several of the other card companies Bread and Butter is magicians. And they need a deck they can show the audience and they recognize. So they can have custom pips and amazing, or not amazing backs, and even color changes but they have to be something the audience can look at and say yes this is a standard/normal deck. There will be some decks they will put out but the large number of decks have to fit in a square hole when some of us want a star deck.

Yep that's very true, the audience needs to recognize the decks/faces. While I love the custom aspect of it (to an extent), it needs to be fully functional (for magic at least) hence why we haven't been producing many custom faces. Steve Cohen just called recently, he's an amazing magician. Had nothing but praise and curse words for the Artisans haha. That guy does NOT swear - ever.

That said, I remember when we released the Sentinels which had custom faces. Had a GREAT response overall but quite a few people here complained they were custom faces, so we stopped making/focusing on custom faces. Can't please everyone!

Personally though, custom faces are more of a novelty thing rather than a timeless design, unless the style otherwise dictates. It just depends on your taste and personal preference but I certainly don't agree that a deck without custom faces is laziness. It's like saying anyone who doesn't emboss/deboss/foil and use custom tax stamp seals is creating horribly bad and lazy tuck cases - which isn't true. It's a personal choice. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's all subjective and just depends.

i might be only one but i collect decks to actually play with, usually rummy and poker. and as long as the corner numbers and suits are clear than the cards are playable. I know that you cant make all decks have custom courts and custom pips but i would like to see at least SOME decks with custom courts and pips.

right now we played our last game night with call of cthulu

[PlayingCardz]

theory11 i am talking to you: CUSTOM COURT CARDS.

The problem with this is that T11 D&D and several of the other card companies Bread and Butter is magicians. And they need a deck they can show the audience and they recognize. So they can have custom pips and amazing, or not amazing backs, and even color changes but they have to be something the audience can look at and say yes this is a standard/normal deck. There will be some decks they will put out but the large number of decks have to fit in a square hole when some of us want a star deck.

Yep that's very true, the audience needs to recognize the decks/faces. While I love the custom aspect of it (to an extent), it needs to be fully functional (for magic at least) hence why we haven't been producing many custom faces. Steve Cohen just called recently, he's an amazing magician. Had nothing but praise and curse words for the Artisans haha. That guy does NOT swear - ever.

That said, I remember when we released the Sentinels which had custom faces. Had a GREAT response overall but quite a few people here complained they were custom faces, so we stopped making/focusing on custom faces. Can't please everyone!

Personally though, custom faces are more of a novelty thing rather than a timeless design, unless the style otherwise dictates. It just depends on your taste and personal preference but I certainly don't agree that a deck without custom faces is laziness. It's like saying anyone who doesn't emboss/deboss/foil and use custom tax stamp seals is creating horribly bad and lazy tuck cases - which isn't true. It's a personal choice. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's all subjective and just depends.

i might be only one but i collect decks to actually play with, usually rummy and poker. and as look as the corner numbers and suits are clear than the cards are playable. I know that you cant make all decks have custom courts and custom pips but i would like to see at least SOME decks with custom courts and pips.

What about the Animal Kingdom deck ?

[DelMagic]

Changes in faces/pips may look nice when viewed as a work of art, but when it comes to actually using the cards as cards, there can be problems.

Radical changes will detract from recognition by the spectator or game player. That isn't a good thing.

Especially troublesome are the color changes for the pips. As a magician, one of my best effects is an oil and water routine: the magician alternates four red and four black cards and they magically separate into a group of red cards and a group of black cards. Try that with the White Pip Black Tiger deck. You just can't do it. Four color pip decks also can hinder many magic effects. Then you have the Ghost decks which have a red pip in the corner and black pips in the center. It kills the dramatic contrast between black and red cards.

When you play games or ask a spectator to take a card and remember it, if the recognition takes extra work on their part, something bad may happen. Card players might misplay their hands and the spectator might not remember their card.

Surely there is room in the playing card market for fully customized and unique decks, but I appreciate wonderful backs and standard faces since I find them much more useful.

[darkinertia]

isnt there enough standard face cards though? im a flourisher, so id rather have customized cards that look awesome rather than normal bicycles, i was always under the impression that most magicians use standard cards anyway since its cheaper to replace the cards since, unlike cardists, people dont wash their hands before handling cards lol.


what i would like to see is customized cards that are recognizable to the average person, yet different enough to add flair to the artwork of the deck overall...one of my favorites being the artifice since its exactly what i mentioned, that and the font of the pips are slim so they fan perfectly. i do understand that its a struggle for companies to do it in a way that magicians get the deck...simplified faces would probably be the way since theyre elegant and recognizable too...oh well you cant please them all lol

[siegismyname]

I had nothing but praise when performing with the robocycle deck. They have custom
Courts and a nice back but the courts are still recognizable. Didn't t11 produce them? I don't see them being sold on t11 site already.

[Fluffykitten]

What about the Animal Kingdom deck ?

i cant wait to get it and see how it plays!

[nur1988]

Totally agree with all of that. Theory11 also doesn't like criticisms or accusations as they've gone so far as to block me on both their Twitter and Facebook accounts, mostly related to the ultra rare Gold Monarchs.

Do we like criticisms? Sure, if they're constructive, but we like positive feedback better ha!

Do we like accusations? That seems like a rhetorical question. Accusations are usually untrue. You were blocked/deleted probably because there were better ways to address your issue. Either way, I'd be more than happy to personally clarify said complaints.

If there were better ways to address the issue, why block? Why not address that issue? The reason I think they blocked him is because they COULDN'T address the issue. Not very good customer service. If you feel you've been accused wrongly, set the record straight, blocking/deleting someone doesn't really look good on your part as a major company.

[BMPokerworld]

Totally agree with all of that. Theory11 also doesn't like criticisms or accusations as they've gone so far as to block me on both their Twitter and Facebook accounts, mostly related to the ultra rare Gold Monarchs.

Do we like criticisms? Sure, if they're constructive, but we like positive feedback better ha!

Do we like accusations? That seems like a rhetorical question. Accusations are usually untrue. You were blocked/deleted probably because there were better ways to address your issue. Either way, I'd be more than happy to personally clarify said complaints.

If there were better ways to address the issue, why block? Why not address that issue? The reason I think they blocked him is because they COULDN'T address the issue. Not very good customer service. If you feel you've been accused wrongly, set the record straight, blocking/deleting someone doesn't really look good on your part as a major company.

I am sure that is not the case with Victor. He is probably blocked by more companies than actually allow him to buy from them. We have him blocked as well. Victor only cares about Victor and I think that says it all.

Thanks!

[agera94]

Nearly every time I see the big vic posting is usually along the lines of childish non-constructive criticism and then purchasing the product soon after.