Kings Wild Black Diamond Tally Ho

[ecNate]

Wow, I don't even know where to begin. Entitled much? So basically you would rather have him develop and print in secret so you don't have to be aware of it and have instant satisfaction, yet the decks really come out nearly the same date as they would have otherwise. KW then has to carry an inventory, take on added risk and costs. Etc. What we would get is less innovative decks at ellusionist and t11 style decks to appeal to the masses that are more likely to sell out. As you said, KW delivers on time and the Kickstarter model allows for direct interactions with backers and a proven pre-order platform. How exactly is this harming you?

[sms69x]

let me WOW myself too! Was really that that you understand from my post?? I guess fanboys will always be fanboys no matter what!

No one needs to print anything in secret, only thing I was asking was to first deliver the previous projects, 3 is a bit too much, and if possible for him to stop using KS, because you may have the money to give to someone with several months beforehand but I believe that not everyone can do that. I actually use some of the extra decks I buy to sell and get some money to buy some more decks.
About the risks and costs, well, KW is a company, so I believe that this 2 keywords are part of the business, otherwise everyone would be a business man.

And Jackson is a well known playing cards designer, he don't need to do KS to get users feedback, ideas or interact with the ones that want to support him.

[JacksonRobinson]

let me WOW myself too! Was really that that you understand from my post?? I guess fanboys will always be fanboys no matter what!

No one needs to print anything in secret, only thing I was asking was to first deliver the previous projects, 3 is a bit too much, and if possible for him to stop using KS, because you may have the money to give to someone with several months beforehand but I believe that not everyone can do that. I actually use some of the extra decks I buy to sell and get some money to buy some more decks.
About the risks and costs, well, KW is a company, so I believe that this 2 keywords are part of the business, otherwise everyone would be a business man.

And Jackson is a well known playing cards designer, he don't need to do KS to get users feedback, ideas or interact with the ones that want to support him.

Thank you so much for your comments. While Kings Wild IS a company it doesn't mean that I'm still not a one many show. Crowdfunding is both an incredible vehicle and an opportunity for anyone to produce anything. My company's model was built on crowdfunding principles. I do my very best to estimate production times with delivery date and to this point have one of the best and longest "delivering on time" records. Like some have said before, without KS we would not have some of the incredible experimentation and "pushing of the envelope" as we have had. Lorenzo's ridiculous tuckcases and packaging, Lotrek's eyeball melting foiling magic, Paul's slick tucks and foiling ideas and many others. All of these elements would not exist without KS.

I appreciate all of my supporters just like all of the designers do. Card collecting is a hobby, in which you have complete control of shaping the industry by what you decide to purchase and not purchase.

[sms69x]

Jackson, you should run your company as you see more suitable for you, if you believe that the KS model is the right model for your company, then you should go for it.
I don't believe that using KS is the only way to "push the envelop", you may say that this is the easiest way to do that, and that I understand, is a zero risk to do what ever you want, if you get the money you do what you promised, if not, no problem either.

Also would like to mention that your deliver time is always accurate, but the problem is the endless wait.

On one point you are absolutely right, we have control on which projects we support, unfortunatelly it is not enough to shape the industry (theory11, E, .. don't care about foilling, special tuck cases, black stock ...)

[Lotrek]

Basically, there are 2 types of creators: Those who will deliver "no matter what" and those who eventually won't deliver even if this option wasn't their intention in first place. I believe (beyond any doubt) that Jackson belongs to the first category. Sure, it's not a nice thing (above all for the creator) to have 3 undelivered projects and start another but one has to be a king size moron to think that being one of the major playing card creators, it's a good idea to rip off his clients. And Jackson is a clever boy!
Now, regarding crowdfunding, there are two sides of the coin. In one side you have people giving you money in advance, in order to help you create something you couldn't afford by yourself. Terrific! But there is also another side and it's called "responsibility". You promise something and if you want to be true to your word, you got to deliver what you promised. Fine. But what happens if things don't turn out as planned? When you promise something that for any reason has problems in execution? In that case crowdfunding becomes an endless source of stress and anxiety: you have people patiently (or impatiently) waiting for their decks, having no idea what are you going through to finish the project. For me, the ideal business model is a combination of crowdfunding and self-funded projects aiming at a gradual weaning from KS. But as soon as one delivers, I equally respect the choice of using KS even forever.

[Bruno]

Erik Mana is a case in point and the relevancy here is Massive.

UNDERLINE
Needs a whole thread of its very own, and I have the very post to open the Sucker.

Do not wait for me to start it, I cannot trust meself .........

[Bikefanatic]

Another Ho for my Ho collection. I'm anticipating this one more than the last three. I'm shooting for the legacy this time.

[UtterFool]

(theory11, E, .. don't care about foilling, special tuck cases, black stock ...)

I have to disagree with you very much here.

I strongly feel that the advances that many of the Kickstarter designers have taken chances on and which we the kickstarter backers have come to expect have been noticed by companies like T11 and Ellusionist.

Sure they still put out plenty of Madison decks with no innovation to feed the masses and lot of recolors of popular brands.
But they have also been forced to take chances and I certainly believe they have been forced to up their game as far as quality with.
If you compare the tuck cases of some of T11s decks today to what they were 5 years ago you can see that change. We are seeing more original artwork with custom suites . All this is because of designers like Jackson, Randy, Paul, Lotrek, etc...
Sure the big companies aren't perfect, and nor is the straight kickstarter business model.
Do I think 3 project unfulfilled and then starting another is too many. Yes. But I will still back the Black Tally-Ho because Jackson has gained my trust.

And that there is really the key.
People don't just buy T-11s decks because they are main stream or but because they trust the company.
These companies are changing their designs to move more like kickstarter designs because people like Jackson are gaining trust.

We can have a million ridiculously innovative designs that won't garner one iota of notice from the bigger companies if they don't bother to fulfill. But when you have stalwarts that innovate and fulfill then they notice.
Jackson has 3 open projects and will fund another because people trust him now. And if he wants to build his company he will need to continue to open projects with others not yet fulfilled. The larger his company the more unfulfilled projects will exist between projects. You have to decide for yourself if you trust him.

If you don't , then you decide to miss out on innovation and only back people that have fulfilled all their previous projects before starting another.


Then of course you can still end up with projects like Erik Mana's and Shane Tyree's.


I think I got off of my original point.
But you should get the idea.

[sms69x]

(theory11, E, .. don't care about foilling, special tuck cases, black stock ...)

I have to disagree with you very much here.

Allow me to disagree with you too!!

Sure T11, E ... had made some changes to their decks, incorporating some of the features that most designers are using in KS, but that's the exception not the rule, T11 had alway produced beautiful tucks (JAQK series), E had produced the Black tiger (probably one of the decks that started this all) and Arcane, and only many years after they came with the prohibition set, so as you can see, they do not felt this all KS thing. The only thing that they matched up was on price, latest JAQKs for $9.95 when they produced at least 5000 (my gues is arround 10000), prohibition set $25 each! In that point you can say that KS made these big companies change something!

Now to the important thing, I TOTALLY TRUST on Jackson to deliver his promises, that's besides the point, I mentioned in my original post I WILL BE THERE to support him.

Now the problem is that I've a lot of money spent on those previous 3 projects, as international backer I can't afford to just back one deck per project, if I did so the price per deck would come to arround $22, so I need to buy at least 6 - 8 to lower the price enough so I can, in the after market try to sell the excess decks and recover the extra money I invested (and keeping my deck at a lower price). I believe that most of US backers don't have to make such decisions, and the only one to make is support or not support, but for me this is the critical part. Just for you to get an idea I have arround 300 decks in my collection, if I would pay $22 per deck (or $20 or $18), is just a matter of doing the maths.
My problem here is that I need to recover part of the money I invested in the 3 previous projects in order to back this new one, so in this way I think that 3 or even 2 projects are too much.

Also I don't see the need for Jackson to use KS for this project, it is a variation ofthe 2 previous with the MetalLux, he knows it will be a hit, so why not produce it on his own (not wanting to mind his business, but he should have enough money to produce a deck on his own).

Another thing that bothers me, is the fact that it is a one man show (as Jackson likes to call), now lets imagine that by some unfortunality something happens to Jackson (just imagine, really hope nothing happens to him, please understand I'm not trying to bring any harm on him), what happens to our investment?

These are the type of questions that I need to answer before I support someone that have more than one project on the hold, and sometimes the decision is hard, like this one, everything tells me not to support him, but I know I'll be there.

Most of the designers are using KS as a pre-sale platform, and not as a starting point to lunch their own business (as it should be used for). This way they have zero risk and if they get the funds they will produce what they promised if not, no one is hurt either!

Hope this brings some more clarification to my point!

[MeriK]

Can you estimate pricing?

The pricing will be similar to that of the LTD editions (not the gilded editions) of my other Tally Ho projects.

I am really new to the playing card collection scene, but I'm really interested in getting myself one of the Tactical Legacy decks. Does anyone have an estimation on price? I don't know the pricing of the other LTD editions. Thanks!

Merik

[vasta41]

Also I don't see the need for Jackson to use KS for this project, it is a variation ofthe 2 previous with the MetalLux, he knows it will be a hit, so why not produce it on his own (not wanting to mind his business, but he should have enough money to produce a deck on his own).

Another thing that bothers me, is the fact that it is a one man show (as Jackson likes to call), now lets imagine that by some unfortunality something happens to Jackson (just imagine, really hope nothing happens to him, please understand I'm not trying to bring any harm on him), what happens to our investment?

These are the type of questions that I need to answer before I support someone that have more than one project on the hold, and sometimes the decision is hard, like this one, everything tells me not to support him, but I know I'll be there.

Most of the designers are using KS as a pre-sale platform, and not as a starting point to lunch their own business (as it should be used for). This way they have zero risk and if they get the funds they will produce what they promised if not, no one is hurt either!

I completely agree with you that Jackson does not need to use KS to create decks. In fact, a while back he said he wouldn't be using it anymore (I think that was when he tried out his own funding site... I forget what it was called but that clearly didn't take off). To your point, the most annoying part of that is simply having to wait for the decks to be created whereas if he just created and printed them first, we could buy them right away. HOWEVER I say, "who cares?" Everyone (or most everyone) here trusts Jackson and we know his product will be spot-on. Do I wish he didn't user KS? Yes. But will I continually pledge for his decks? You bet your ass.

As far as your "hit by a bus" theory, I don't agree with that at all. There are many one-man shows out there that if "something happened" our investments would be at risk. But what if a meteor hit the earth and we all died? My point is if the fear of the unknown is enough to keep you from backing projects, don't back them. I for one am not that superstitious.

Lastly I disagree with your thoughts on KS in general. While I do agree it's a great platform that is *commonly* used to launch businesses I feel as though it's a better platform to launch projects. Hence our obsession here- if it weren't for KS there'd be far less awesome decks in our collections. It would be foolish for Bill Gates to use KS to fund a new version of Windows and if Jackson, Lotrek, RJ, etc. ever become that rich and famous because of their brands I would think any further KS projects they launch would be foolish too.

[chach]

Can you estimate pricing?

The pricing will be similar to that of the LTD editions (not the gilded editions) of my other Tally Ho projects.

I am really new to the playing card collection scene, but I'm really interested in getting myself one of the Tactical Legacy decks. Does anyone have an estimation on price? I don't know the pricing of the other LTD editions. Thanks!

Merik

Only Jackson knows for sure, but it won't be inexpensive. From my understanding there will be two Legacy decks, 50 x wooden legacy and 10 x tactical aluminum legacy decks. On his last deck to feature a wooden legacy case, the price was $200 for a legacy & player's deck (This was his Texas deck, one that didn't even sell out like the previous Tally-Ho decks).

So since a chunk of aluminum billet isn't cheap , nor is the machining and hand engraving time. Then to top it off, Jackson is quite proud of his work and his prices reflect that so I'd assume that the pledge level featuring the tactical box will be pretty pricey to say the least.

I just hope I'm quick enough to nab one of the one of everything levels.

[sinjin7]

Also I don't see the need for Jackson to use KS for this project, it is a variation ofthe 2 previous with the MetalLux, he knows it will be a hit, so why not produce it on his own (not wanting to mind his business, but he should have enough money to produce a deck on his own).

Kickstarter has its pro's and con's, and ultimately I feel the way you use KS is determined by how big you think the market is for your product and how big of a business you want to be. If you feel you're dealing with a niche product in a niche market, then you probably will stay on KS because you can target your niche market with relatively no cost and little marketing (KS does it for you) and its low risk, relatively low reward. In other words, small but safe.

I've maintained all along that Kickstarter is not a viable business model if you want to get big with long-term staying power. You're not seeing any of the truly sucessful big companies like Microsoft, Walmart, ExxonMobile, Toyota, Pfizer, or Sony using a crowdfunding model. Now you may be saying those are HUGE companies with no need to use Kickstarter. While that's true, my main point is that regardless of whether you have enough capital to self-fund your products, if crowdfunding is a viable means for long-term huge sucess, these elite companies would be using it as well. And none of them are. Even if you scale it down from Fortune 500 companies to sucessful small businesses, even they aren't using crowdfunding because it's not a viable model for long-term sucessful business.

The biggest problem with KS isn't about trust and reputation. We pretty much know who runs legit campaigns, and who doesn't, and we have great resources here on UC to keep us posted on who's risky or not. And speaking of Jackson specifically, he can run 10 campaigns at once for all I care, because he has such a proven track record that NO ONE should have any worries about whether he'll complete fulfillment. The true problem with KS and crowdfunding is that you have to pay money up front for the product, and then you have to wait many months (and in some cases years) before you finally get your product. We're already starting to see blowback from this annoying built-in KS delay, and in this ever increasing instant gratification economy where customers want things right away, people will eventually lose patience with the KS model.

In my opinion (and that's all it is), people like Jackson and others who are very talented playing card designers, and who have had a year or two of sucess at the Kickstarter level, have to ultimately decide this: Are they a Business or are they a Hobby? Is designing and producing playing cards going to really take care of your family and be able to fund your children's college and your comfortable retirement? Well, Kickstarter probably won't do that for you.

[badpete69]

Should I even bother saying live... everything almost sold out

[chach]

oh well, looks like this will be my cheapest KW deck in a long time. Browser hung up and I couldn't even get a regular Legacy Edition. Oh well, money saved I guess.

[Pablo393]

I was on it and my browser didn't hang up and I still was not able to get any of the legacy decks. The adrenaline rush did get my heart pumping though. Now I can get back to my Saturday chores.

[SpecialK]

I count 46 Legacy's gone...perhaps Jackson will release some of the other 4? If I recall he did for the Emerald.

[badpete69]

I was thinking about that tactical edition yesterday, but someone very wise made me see the light hehehe... I did go for the legacy though. Jackson as always no luck required this will be sold out in about 10 minutes. Grats

[CostlyAxis]

Ironically, this time around I just scrolled up until I saw a price I was willing to spend. Got a Legacy edition, but I was unaware of the tactical ones. Oh well, I think I'll live.

[PrincessTrouble]

I was stressing because I'm not home and just had my phone and KS app. Got 2 decks, so I'm happy. Considered the 4 deck pledge tier, but I'm cutting back on spending. Congrats to those who grabbed the legacy and tactical editions.

[MeriK]

I'm broke so I was just happy to get in on the regular LTD deck @ $30! Funded in less than two minutes!

[Mike Ratledge]

Get em while they are hot! Less than 175 left in singles, doubles & quads.

[ccralleo]

This one is gonna cost me some money this time around but I locked up a full set! What a sweat. I'm still shaking a bit. I was ready to put up an ISO for the Tactical for $$$$... Now all I need is one of those Gold Liberty decks from the convention and I will be complete once again.

[UtterFool]

Also I don't see the need for Jackson to use KS for this project, it is a variation ofthe 2 previous with the MetalLux, he knows it will be a hit, so why not produce it on his own (not wanting to mind his business, but he should have enough money to produce a deck on his own).

Kickstarter has its pro's and con's, and ultimately I feel the way you use KS is determined by how big you think the market is for your product and how big of a business you want to be. If you feel you're dealing with a niche product in a niche market, then you probably will stay on KS because you can target your niche market with relatively no cost and little marketing (KS does it for you) and its low risk, relatively low reward. In other words, small but safe.

I've maintained all along that Kickstarter is not a viable business model if you want to get big with long-term staying power. You're not seeing any of the truly sucessful big companies like Microsoft, Walmart, ExxonMobile, Toyota, Pfizer, or Sony using a crowdfunding model. Now you may be saying those are HUGE companies with no need to use Kickstarter. While that's true, my main point is that regardless of whether you have enough capital to self-fund your products, if crowdfunding is a viable means for long-term huge sucess, these elite companies would be using it as well. And none of them are. Even if you scale it down from Fortune 500 companies to sucessful small businesses, even they aren't using crowdfunding because it's not a viable model for long-term sucessful business.

The biggest problem with KS isn't about trust and reputation. We pretty much know who runs legit campaigns, and who doesn't, and we have great resources here on UC to keep us posted on who's risky or not. And speaking of Jackson specifically, he can run 10 campaigns at once for all I care, because he has such a proven track record that NO ONE should have any worries about whether he'll complete fulfillment. The true problem with KS and crowdfunding is that you have to pay money up front for the product, and then you have to wait many months (and in some cases years) before you finally get your product. We're already starting to see blowback from this annoying built-in KS delay, and in this ever increasing instant gratification economy where customers want things right away, people will eventually lose patience with the KS model.

In my opinion (and that's all it is), people like Jackson and others who are very talented playing card designers, and who have had a year or two of sucess at the Kickstarter level, have to ultimately decide this: Are they a Business or are they a Hobby? Is designing and producing playing cards going to really take care of your family and be able to fund your children's college and your comfortable retirement? Well, Kickstarter probably won't do that for you.

[aztecas101]

100% gone

[Bikefanatic]

I'm on a road trip, I was chatting and almost forgot about this. It's also amazing he sold out by just showing off ONE CARD. Jackson always delivers though plus I hope my Emerald Tally Hos are home when I get back.

[Cbkimble]

Maybe Jackson should do a 24 campaign next time.

[nECr0MaNCeD]

Somehow I spaced and didn't realize this was so limited. I completely missed out. Anyone dropping their pledge please PM me so I can have a shot.

[vasta41]

Maybe Jackson should do a 24 campaign next time.

According to his update he will be doing "something else" during the duration of the campaign (aces up his sleeve he calls it). On a side note I think the price for these decks isn't bad at all considering the USPCC's gold MetalLuxe deck was $30. And this is a Tally-Ho and comes with more bells and whistles.

[TGunitedcardists]

I think Jackson left a lot of money on the table for this one. Maybe he needs to do a separate display deck run. That way, more and more people will actually use the cards.