Printer Comparisons

[4.of.Clubs]

Sorry if this don't belong here but I couldn't find another good sub-forum to post.

Been wondering about this for a while now... How do all the different printers compare? USPCC, EPCC, Legend, Liberty, MPC, etc.

It seems like USPCC and EPCC are up there while others have lower quality?

[sprouts1115]

4oC - USPCC is the best with a 2500 deck minimum. EPCC and LPCC are both made in Taiwan and a close Second with a 1000 deck minimum. This is like the Lowe's and Home Depot or Walgreens and CBS of the playing card industry. I wonder who will win in the end? MPC is a great place to get a demo deck from at a modest price. They are in Hong Kong or basically China with no minimums, but they know they are getting better. You will not see a good break in their price unless you get a bunch...

[52JokesandCounting]

For me LPCC and EPCC is better than USPCC. In general their cards last longer and handle better than any USPCC deck. Well that's is my personal preference though, I know there are many who prefers USPCC deck over EPCC or LPCC due to the softer stock and finish, as well as the magic coating. I do agree the stock might be a little stiffer, but I found that the coating LPCC and EPCC used last longer. Hence they last longer.

[4.of.Clubs]

I assume LPCC always refers to Legend and not Liberty?

[52JokesandCounting]

I assume LPCC always refers to Legend and not Liberty?

That's correct.

[jerichoholic]

What's does everyone think of Tomlinson's printer and Noir Arts?

[rousselle]

So far, the printing company that RJ has used has only been used for one deck. The quality of that deck is an interesting mixed bag: the cards are sturdy and stiff (this is a matter of preference; I like it, and it's one of the reasons I give EPCC/LPCC's printer a slight edge over USPCC), the coating does not allow for good fans out of the box (some have reported that it gets better with use, but this has not been my experience), and in my *very* limited experience with only *one* deck from this *one* print run, the cards don't seem to stand up to abuse as well as some of the earlier decks from the print house that EPCC/LPCC use. The print quality itself is top notch: colors and registration are excellent.

That said...

RJ also reports that the print house that produced Gettysburg has been very responsive to his feedback (as LPCC/EPCC's printer was to theirs), and I have every reason to believe that the next deck they do for RJ will be better. This is definitely a printer to watch. In fact, I'd say that their responsiveness and their eagerness to improve both their product and their reputation will count more in the long run than their initial quality on their first print run for our market. I know that I'd rather work with a print house that wants to work with me, as opposed to one that is big enough to ignore me when something goes wrong with my order.

These are my observations from a distance; others here may have differing opinions, but I think RJ himself would be an excellent resource to tap.

[Mirror]

I'd say USPCC were the best when they were in Ohio. Now I prefer the feel of EPCC / LPCC Decks to USPCC.

[sinjin7]

Sorry if this don't belong here but I couldn't find another good sub-forum to post.

Been wondering about this for a while now... How do all the different printers compare? USPCC, EPCC, Legend, Liberty, MPC, etc.

It seems like USPCC and EPCC are up there while others have lower quality?

It all depends on what your perspective is, whether its as a deck designer, magician, cardists, or collector.

From a deck designer/producer perspective, I think Sparkz summarized it best in a different thread: your choice of printer will most likely be determined by your print run. If you have the resources to print more than 2500 decks, you're probably going with USPCC. If your print run is between 1000 & 2500 decks, your only economical option is EPCC/LPCC. If you are printing less than 1000 decks, then you'll have to look at lower quality/lower cost options such as MPC et al.

From a consumer point of view, if you're strictly a pure collector, the printer really doesn't matter at all since you're never opening the deck anyways. If you're in this category, you're basically just looking for pretty tuck boxes, "rarity", or a specific theme (for example, vintage decks, casino decks, military themed decks, etc...).

If you're a magician, card mechanic, or a cardists, then you have to consider stock, finish, and durability:

STOCK - This is the area where the playing field is most level. Everyone for the most part utilize good quality stock, with the quantifiable properties being thickness, stiffness, and snap. USPCC's casino-grade Bee stock (especially Ohio-produced stock) is the thickest and stiffest, followed by EPCC/LPCC, then MPC, and then USPCC Aristocrat/Standard stock round out the softer end of the spectrum.

FINISH - Nothing tops USPCC in terms of finish. They still have the most slip and consistency, and while Taiwanese factories are getting better, they still lag behind. It seems recently, in their ever-evolving attempts to improve, EPCC/LPCC finish is getting flatter, or in other words, the "dimples" are getting shallower. With their particular chemical formulation, this combination does seem to produce "slipperier" cards, but it also makes them feel more plastic-y. MPC's finish is also improving, but nevertheless runs a distant third place.

DURABILITY - If you practice basic caution in handling cards (washing your hands, exposing the cards to a consistent humidity level, etc..) your decks should last. Having said that, its still to early to really judge EPCC/LPCC's long-term durability because they simply haven't been in existence long enough. How will their cards feel after careful and regular use for 5 years? How will they feel after being stored for 10, 15 years? I know what I get with USPCC Q1 decks. I have a Ellusionist white Ghost deck and a powdered Shadow Master deck that I've been playing around with for over 5 years, and they still feel and handle great. I also know that if I pop open a sealed Q1 Tally Ho deck made 12 years ago in the Ohio factory that it will still be buttery smooth with great snap.

MISC - EPCC/LPCC boast A LOT about how smoothly the edges of their cards are cut. Compared side by side, they are definitely smoother than the USPCC. My question is, "So what?" Its not like the USPCC card edges are so rough they injure dainty fingers and hands. For me at least, I've never ever had an issue with the edge of a USPCC card. and these smoother edges of EPCC/LPCC cards result in no tangible improvement in comfort, performance, or handling. In fact, while both faro pretty well, I am still able to faro USPCC cards easier and more consistently than EPCC/LPCC cards, so in my opinion, these vaunted smoother edges of the EPCC/LPCC amount to just marketing hype and serious cardists or mechanics know better than to be swayed by them. The one area that the Taiwanese produced decks are superior over the USPCC is the print registration. I don't think I've ever seen an off-centered EPCC/LPCC deck or card, while we all know that even Q1 USPCC decks will occasionally have issues.

As you can tell from above, the top 2 dogs are the USPCC and EPCC/LPCC. MPC is becoming interesting. Their quality used to suck. Now they suck less. The interesting part comes from the way they are pushing the innovation envelope. I'm especially curious about how their foil backed cards turn out. As for the other printers, they don't have enough market share to be relevant enough to discuss.

At the end of the day, your opinion on the various printers will probably be most swayed by cost (especially if you're a deck producer) and personal preference. For magicians and collectors, it seems like its a 50/50 wash between USPCC and EPCC/LPCC. If your a cardist who emphasizes cuts and springs, you may lean in EPCCC/LPCC's direction, and if you emphasize fans and spreads, you'll lean USPCC's direction. I've made this point before, but its worth noting that the most elite cardists (The Virts, Dan and Dave, etc..) who commission their own personal signature decks use the USPCC. Arguably the most renown card mechanic, Richard Turner, who has forgotten more about the physical properties of playing cards than most of us will ever know, exclusively uses USPCC casino-grade, traditionally cut, playing cards. Enough said.

[volantangel]

MISC - EPCC/LPCC boast A LOT about how smoothly the edges of their cards are cut. Compared side by side, they are definitely smoother than the USPCC. My question is, "So what?"

Hahah THIS. I still find faro-ing easier with uspcc cards. Its the only thing that the edges affect.

[Mirror]

MISC - EPCC/LPCC boast A LOT about how smoothly the edges of their cards are cut. Compared side by side, they are definitely smoother than the USPCC. My question is, "So what?"

Hahah THIS. I still find faro-ing easier with uspcc cards. Its the only thing that the edges affect.

True, the smooth edges are great but USPCC edges aren't bad. They just need a little more time breaking in. What I love about EPCC / LPPC is the perfect printing registration that sinjin mentioned. That's one of the aspect in which the USPCC really need to step up their game.

[Cbkimble]

The boardwalk papers, IMO, is the best deck do anythi g with.