UC Deck of the Year

[volantangel]

Ok just for comparison (not trying to induce any arguments), what do you think of the results of our Deck of the Year (Doty) Vs the PCF awards?

What do you think is a better representation of the entire card industry, or are there anything that we can learn from.

Or simply anything we can do better next year?

[Eoghann]

I think a mix of both. I didn't take part in the other one coz I'm not a member so I'm a bit biased towards this one. But I liked the idea of best deck that didn't fund.

[Jock1971]

I was torn between a few decks on some catagories

so i suggest we vote our 1st,2nd & 3rd place decks for each catagorie instead of just 1st

A lot more work for the organizer (sorry Kai ) but i think we`ll see a lot more decks being thrown in the mix

[volantangel]

I was torn between a few decks on some catagories

so i suggest we vote our 1st,2nd & 3rd place decks for each catagorie instead of just 1st

A lot more work for the organizer (sorry Kai ) but i think we`ll see a lot more decks being thrown in the mix

Actually ive thought of that before, assigning the same 5, 3, 1 to the 1st 2nd and 3rd placings, but logistically wise, i think its wayy too complicated to do manually, unless there was a way to have it as an automated system.

[montecarlojoe]

I was torn between a few decks on some catagories

so i suggest we vote our 1st,2nd & 3rd place decks for each catagorie instead of just 1st

A lot more work for the organizer (sorry Kai ) but i think we`ll see a lot more decks being thrown in the mix

Actually ive thought of that before, assigning the same 5, 3, 1 to the 1st 2nd and 3rd placings, but logistically wise, i think its wayy too complicated to do manually, unless there was a way to have it as an automated system.

Give me till the evening

[MagikFingerz]

I was torn between a few decks on some catagories

so i suggest we vote our 1st,2nd & 3rd place decks for each catagorie instead of just 1st

A lot more work for the organizer (sorry Kai ) but i think we`ll see a lot more decks being thrown in the mix

I can't think of any other voting system where people give more than 1 vote per category, and I think that's for good reason. It's not only about the tallying, it's also about calculating winners (decks/artists). If Deck A gets 5 1st place votes while Deck B gets 10 2nd place votes but no 1st place votes, which one deserves to win? Even the most logical point system won't be perfect in deciding the winners of all the different possible scenarios, someone would always disagree with those decisions.

[montecarlojoe]

The problem isn't giving the decks scores based on a voters 1,2,3. AS Kai says assign points to 1st second and third and then tally. the problem comes in assigning points to the voter. If you vote deck A as 1st and Deck B as 2nd , but Deck B gets 1st and Dack A gets 2nd, how many points do you get?
If you name a deck as your 3rd choice but it comes in first do you actually deserve points at all...?

The only way to do it is to allow voters to name 3 decks, but in no particular order. Then its a simple tally for deck score and you get points for each deck in your vote.

I've built an automated spreadsheet for the single vote system, wont take long to adapt it to 3 votes...

[Jock1971]

The problem isn't giving the decks scores based on a voters 1,2,3. AS Kai says assign points to 1st second and third and then tally. the problem comes in assigning points to the voter. If you vote deck A as 1st and Deck B as 2nd , but Deck B gets 1st and Dack A gets 2nd, how many points do you get?
If you name a deck as your 3rd choice but it comes in first do you actually deserve points at all...?

The only way to do it is to allow voters to name 3 decks, but in no particular order. Then its a simple tally for deck score and you get points for each deck in your vote.

I've built an automated spreadsheet for the single vote system, wont take long to adapt it to 3 votes...

Yes.... this is more along the lines i was thinking of..
At least we wouldn`t need to toss a coin to choose between two or three decks ..we could just put our 3 best.

EDIT- i`d just like to add i`m not against the 1 vote each catagory rule and am well happy about how this years competition was organised.

[Cbkimble]

I like the idea of choosing from XX number of decks rather than hundreds, so the idea of nominations is good in a way. At the same time, I like having more than 2 or 3 choices per category (for the most part anyway).

Definitely more categories could be added as I've stated before.

If you're gonna do nominations, it should be a year long event. New deck comes out with an amazing coin, it should be nominated then, seconded, and maybe even thirded. It'd minimize the list and I think more members would get involved.

[Jock1971]

ooh..not sure about nominating decks then having them seconded

Nobody would have seconded my choice of "Cats" for best pips

[Cbkimble]

ooh..not sure about nominating decks then having them seconded

Nobody would have seconded my choice of "Cats" for best pips

Voting for that deck though and having no one else vote for it, basically, made it a non vote. Now one could only nominate one deck but second multiple.

[Jock1971]

ooh..not sure about nominating decks then having them seconded

Nobody would have seconded my choice of "Cats" for best pips

I'm know that was a joke choice but voting for that deck and having no one else vote for it, basically, made it a non vote. Now one could only nominate one deck but second multiple.

EH..Hold on a minute

None of my Votes were a JOKE .

[Cbkimble]

My apologies. Edited.

[Jock1971]

Apologies Accepted..... My name is jase by the way

My point was if i had to get my nominations seconded i would not have been able to vote on what i personally thought was the "Best" in that catagory.

[badpete69]

Personally I was against the way this contest was set up as obviously people would not vote with their heart but try to vote for the most popular decks. We had a good discussion on this in the mod section but in the end I did not care about the prizes and voted what i personally liked and hence I am close to last place or something. I like the idea of picking 2 decks because many times I was hesitating between 2 personal favorite, even 3 sometimes

I envision it would be cool if we had 2 picks for each category and the vote would be worth 3 points and 1 point. I am talking points not for the contest but for determining the winners. It probably would make close races for deck of the years if a deck got tons of second place votes and some first place votes versus a deck that got decent first place votes but not many second.

And as far as the contest it should be a totally separate thing from the voting so that we get a clear picture of what people really think and not what people really think other people will vote for. I know an dunderstand that popular decks are popular because they are liked but how many here did not pick their favorite so they would get a shot at the prizes

My 1 cent and 3/4

[PrincessTrouble]

I voted my heart and not for the prizes. I agree, though, that I think the prizes skewed the results somewhat.

[sinjin7]

I don't think we can ever run a perfect contest, but I thought what we had this year was pretty damn good. I think most people voted their hearts and not just to win prizes. There will always be a few people who will try to game the system to get a better prize, but like I said, there is no perfect system.

I don't like the notion of nominating decks and getting them seconded in order to be eligible to be voted on. I think even Don Boyer conceded it wasn't the best way of running their Deck of the Year contest over at Discourse/Playingcardforum. I think its always better to have more choices to vote on than a limited number of choices.

While I definitely think we can tweak our categories for next year, I don't want to see too many more new categories added, I feel all that does is dilute the contest. I'd rather keep it tight and focused on the important categories than have too many fringe categories that many people won't vote on or care about. The Discourse contest had a ton of categories, and some of them didn't even get any votes or participation

I do like the notion of being able to submit our top 2 or 3 options for each of the focused categories we do have. The common theme I'm hearing in this thread is that sometimes it was so close in choosing between 2 decks for a particular category that people were literally flipping coins. I understand this increases the complexity and logistics of tallying scores, but it may be worth looking into whether a good spreadsheet formula can solve that problem.

[Mike Ratledge]

I think 20 categories maximum is where it should stop. We could merge "flourish" and "fan" to "cardistry", add "Best New Artist" so many people asked to be added and still have room for three more.

Voting for two decks in any one I understand, but logistics - not sure yet.

While we are on the subject, maybe people can go ahead and suggest new categories and we'll make a poll? Just thinking out loud on my feet as I am prone to do...

[MagikFingerz]

We could merge "flourish" and "fan" to "cardistry"

I must disagree. Fans (and their variations) are a very particular type of flourish that requires quite different design characteristics than other flourishes.

Btw I support the idea of a thread or forum section specifically for pictures of the various decks of the year, as a tool for people to use when deciding which ones to vote for (was that in this thread?). I will be able to help with that next year, although I do keep cutting down on the amount of decks I buy

[volantangel]

We could merge "flourish" and "fan" to "cardistry"

I must disagree. Fans (and their variations) are a very particular type of flourish that requires quite different design characteristics than other flourishes.

Btw I support the idea of a thread or forum section specifically for pictures of the various decks of the year, as a tool for people to use when deciding which ones to vote for (was that in this thread?). I will be able to help with that next year, although I do keep cutting down on the amount of decks I buy

Yup, the virts are not a great fanning deck, but the flourish in other aspects such as piroulette and cuts (pun fully intended ) and they were miles ahead of other decks in that aspect.

Yea i was giving it some thought as well, we could have a general overall list, followed by pictures, with the list having links to the individual post which the pictures are contained, the mods can help to upkeep the list, while the rest of you help to post pictures? What do you think ?

[Cbkimble]

I agree that I think most people voted for their favorites not just for points. I understand the idea of two votes but I think that will really lead people to voting just for points. Vote for favorite deck and vote for high points deck. If you allowed two, would you get points for both, only the top answer? That's where the problem comes in, IMO.

What I meant about nominating and seconding decks would be year round. Once a deck was delivered, it could be nominated for XX award. The reasoning for this approach is due to a deck having only one vote is in essence a non vote. As I've stated before, I did vote for the bicycle steel deck for best pips buy if no one else voted for that then it was the same as a non vote. Now if you have decks that are nominated for a category, you have a list to choose from then every vote counts.

[Mike Ratledge]

Brent, while I understand where you are coming from, I don't want to limit what people can vote for in each category. I also have to agree that allowing two votes per category would invite people to vote for both their favorite AND what they think will be most popular.

It's a conundrum. We'll have to think about it more, for sure. The other thing I don't like is mirroring PCF's process of nominations. That just rubs against the grain for me, anyway. They (severely) limit what you can vote for, and I think it stifles what we accentuate - that we're all different.

Thoughts, anyone?

[volantangel]

I agree that I think most people voted for their favorites not just for points. I understand the idea of two votes but I think that will really lead people to voting just for points. Vote for favorite deck and vote for high points deck. If you allowed two, would you get points for both, only the top answer? That's where the problem comes in, IMO.

What I meant about nominating and seconding decks would be year round. Once a deck was delivered, it could be nominated for XX award. The reasoning for this approach is due to a deck having only one vote is in essence a non vote. As I've stated before, I did vote for the bicycle steel deck for best pips buy if no one else voted for that then it was the same as a non vote. Now if you have decks that are nominated for a category, you have a list to choose from then every vote counts.

Yup the idea of having one favourites and one point votes is never going to work, so lets not go down that route, similarly i think if we were to vote for 1,2,3 placings its difficult on both ends logistically, (123 is easy for best deck, going 123 is difficult for categories like best flourishing, best innovation where the votes were very polarised.) point allocation is going to be even more difficult.

I am not taking to the idea of having nominated decks, because the issue of non votes isnt a terrible one, i only put in that rule because in the previous year where we did not have as many voters (about half of this year) in some categories we were getting 3rd placings on decks that were getting a single vote, and i just didnt think that one vote was enough to be awarded a placing. This year the smallest number of votes that earned a placing was 3 by banshees in innovation, where it was basically a two horse race. Same for fanning, where tenebre and dominion v2 had 4 votes, the rest largely went to occults and zenith. With a larger pool of people i fully expect this problem to go away =)

One problem I envisioned before the start of the awards is that i felt that decks that delivered in the earlier part of the year usually gets neglected. And obviously my concern was misplaced, origins was one of the first decks to be delivered in 2014, requiem and venexiana gold were also not particularly late decks. I think having the thread with picture to refresh everyones memory would help to alleviate the problem further.

Edit: oh yes, one of the reasons i released the spreadsheet was also for creators that were not placed in the top 3 to have a look, see if anyone else voted for their deck, you never know how much motivation this could have on the creator.

[badpete69]

Actually when I suggested the 2 votes thing Mike, that would be in a system that does not reward guessing the most popular decks. The 2 votes would simply be for tabulating popularity of the decks and the contest in my deranged world would be a separate drawing among those who voted. But if the majority like the contest the way it is then let's not mess with it

[montecarlojoe]

Strictly speaking Pierre you are totally right - we can add complexity in layers but any game is playable - the only way to make it completely fair is to remove the game element - essentially to make it a lottery.
i.e. each voter goes into a hat and names are drawn until prizes run out.

I don't think that would be as engaging though. Perhaps there's a middle ground somewhere..?

e.g. Reduced number of prizes (maybe 3) for the points competition and the rest lottery style
More "tickets" for complete entries (less gaps = better chance)
Requirement for justification (you voted for this deck, but why?)
Prizes for best written reasoning / analysis
etc.

[Cbkimble]

Ok, so I see most are against nominations, so I guess scratch that idea. I still like the idea of a thread or maybe even a forum section with each category as a separate thread. Each having a sticky thread with a list of each deck that would fit that category. That way we would know that requiem had an invisible coin or that the steel deck had some really kickass pips.

[nECr0MaNCeD]

Something for folks to ponder. I am, and have been, a computer and electronics tech for a very long time. One of the most overlooked facts about any "problem" and trying to identify and fix it is the nearly universal tendency to over complicate the issue at hand. (Not that that is what anyone is doing) Just sharing some experience with problem solving. Sometimes the answer is in simplicity, not complexity. Something for you guys (and gals) to ponder while thinking about this. So here are some of my thoughts.

For "too close to call or chose" situations, I really don't think there is an answer to this. No amount of change or tweaking will "fix" what is a personal opinion. You can only split a hair so many times.

Nominations to me is one of those ideas that sounds good on paper but in practice causes more problems than it fixes. My way of dealing with this was to copy and paste the list into MS Word and "trim" all of the decks I was sure I would never vote for. I went through the list of categories and deleted still more that I knew I would never vote for. In the end it was still a formidable list but manageable. Barely. When I drew up my list I didn't care if anyone agreed with me. I voted what I liked and if it didn't count, so be it.

Multiple picks for each place. My knee jerk reaction was all for it. ( I even posited it in an early comment) But it would be a logistical nightmare bordering on impossible. The only way something like that would come close to working would be to eliminate "points" altogether. (An idea maybe?)

New categories. Best new artist seems to be a given and I wholeheartedly agree. I also think the idea of separating set from series because in every case I can think of they really are different things. I also realize my earlier idea of separate votes for commercial decks (IE T11, E, Blue Crown Etc) is not practical but maybe a "Best Commercial Deck"?

Sorry for how long this is. Hey Mike, something this big needs a Skype "UC Town Hall" meeting!

[volantangel]

Sorry for how long this is. Hey Mike, something this big needs a Skype "UC Town Hall" meeting!

Haha that would be fun wouldnt it ?

[nECr0MaNCeD]

Sorry for how long this is. Hey Mike, something this big needs a Skype "UC Town Hall" meeting!

Haha that would be fun wouldnt it ?

Damn you read fast! A great idea IMHO.

[montecarlojoe]

We have a chat room lol

(NB if you have multiple voting it's simple enough if you eliminate 1st/2nd/3rd for the prediction, and award points as before if any of your voted decks place in a particular category - essentially it's just like having 3 gos at the competition and adding up your total scores from each entry)

I think we need to build a section of the boards dedicated to DOTY - Sticky posts for results each year, Hall of fame to showcase winning decks, competition discussion and suggestion box etc...