Tally-Ho - Kings Wild Project Edition - Live

[sinjin7]

The main issue was never whether KW Funded is true crowd-fuding. It wasn't even whether the KW Tally Ho deck is a staple deck, even Jackson backtracked on that. The biggest problem is that Jackson comes to UC and announces that he's so geeked to bring a fully custom deck that's priced cheaper than his other custom decks, and then it turns out its every bit as expensive as his other custom decks. Then he has the gall to price it even higher after his initial pre-orders are done! In what world, real or fantasy, is this considered cheaper?

For him to print future runs, its going to cost him LESS since all the art and set up is done, but now he's going to charge $16.00 per deck shipped? He sold the excess custom decks from his Kickstarter campaigns on his site at a higher price than what he sold if for on KS, but that is reasonable because those were limited, no more Fed52, Holmes, Independence, etc are ever going to be printed again. These KW Tallys are going to be made over and over again.

These KW Tallys will be horrifically over-priced at $16.00 per deck shipped. I have to figure out a way to incorporate the "$" sign into JackSon's name or King$ Wild now, a la D$D....

[Mike Ratledge]

... In what world, real or fantasy, is this considered cheaper?

For him to print future runs, its going to cost him LESS since all the art and set up is done, but now he's going to charge $16.00 per deck shipped? He sold the excess custom decks from his Kickstarter campaigns on his site at a higher price than what he sold if for on KS, but that is reasonable because those were limited, no more Fed52, Holmes, Independence, etc are ever going to be printed again. These KW Tallys are going to be made over and over again.

These KW Tallys will be horrifically over-priced at $16.00 per deck shipped. I have to figure out a way to incorporate the "$" sign into JackSon's name or King$ Wild now, a la D$D....

Couldn't agree more, folks! The facts are that - without even getting too deep in the technical side - the costs for the plates are all one-time costs, reprints don't have that expense: you "eat those costs" the first time, and you're done with that part. In general you have to only do it once for most CrowdFunding type projects, but this is WAY far away from that paradigm. In his own words it's going to be done again (and again) and become his first "true standard" deck. That in itself means he has the luxury of spreading out those costs over a 5,000 to 7,000 minimum number of decks if not 10,000 or more - as opposed to what usually happens when you're CrowdFunding something and you have to spread it over only 2500-4000 decks if it's USPCC and 1000-2400 (or more) if it's Expert PCC. That's why the 1000 deck series get up there price-wise, you can't spread those costs out across more volume. That being said you have to know he's doing 10,000 of these from the start, or he's just not doing what he said he was doing, making it be his first true deck standard. That means that - on average - those costs are being spread at least two or three times less than if they were spread out over 5000 or 3300 decks. It's just math, folks, it's not that complicated. Divide the costs into 10,000 little pieces, carry the naught, divide by zero - oops!

Anyway, just kidding and I'm not trying to be difficult, just realistic, just like sinjin7 is. Those costs converge to zero for all practical purposes, and we shouldn't even be paying $12 for the darned things, decks are about $5 each - that's it! I'm not going there this time, but I have the cure. If you make everything real costs for shipping plus fees for handling it's about $4 worst case - the single deck shipped. When you get up around a brick it's more like $1.50 - IF that (per deck) and that's being generous in his favor. Since he's physically doing fulfillment himself, he has complete control over his costs, and I'm quite certain that he will optimize it as best he can - he always does.

When you get down to it we just lined his crib once again, this time with $4 or $5 PER DECK that we "pre-ordered", CrowdFunded, retail sales purchased - whatever - that part doesn't matter. That adds up quickly when you're talking about 10,000 decks, or even if it's only 5000. In the end it's going to be 50,000 or more - and the cost is going UP to where we're going to be paying $7 or $8 each deck?!?

What the heck, guys? I've always put my foot between everybody and Jack$on in the past, but I'm beyond words at this point, and I couldn't sit down and write the scarlet letter sinjin7 did. I'm forbidden to make a stink because I am only thinking about myself? Get serious -that's just crap! Total crap. We might as well be paying his morgage, because we ARE paying his mortgage - if we haven't already paid it off.

[bamabenz]

When you get down to it we just lined his crib once again, this time with $4 or $5 PER DECK that we "pre-ordered", CrowdFunded, retail sales purchased - whatever - that part doesn't matter. That adds up quickly when you're talking about 10,000 decks, or even if it's only 5000. In the end it's going to be 50,000 or more - and the cost is going UP to where we're going to be paying $7 or $8 each deck?!?

What the heck, guys? I've always put my foot between everybody and Jack$on in the past, but I'm beyond words at this point, and I couldn't sit down and write the scarlet letter sinjin7 did. I'm forbidden to make a stink because I am only thinking about myself? Get serious -that's just crap! Total crap. We might as well be paying his morgage, because we ARE paying his mortgage - if we haven't already paid it off.

So your complaint is that Jackson's business is making too much money? Why is that a problem for you?
You say that "we just lined his crib once again" -- so despite your anger you ponied-up?

/bama

[vasta41]

Jacksons inactivity on this forum the past few weeks leads me to believe he has a guilty conscience. We called him out and his lack of denial or comment on here just means we hit the nail on the head. Tisk tisk

[Firthetic]

Those costs converge to zero for all practical purposes, and we shouldn't even be paying $12 for the darned things, decks are about $5 each - that's it! I'm not going there this time, but I have the cure.

Mike, I hope you remember this for when CardLauncher starts.

[Cbkimble]

This is getting old everyone. Yes, mike is about to start his own crowdfunding site but does that mean he can't still give his opinion anymore. I can see where it could be seen as a conflict of interest or criticizing the competition but so what. Do you really think when CL is up and running, it won't have the same thing happen to him? There are several members here that can't wait to shove any and all issues that arise back in Mike's face. None of you would think anything about what Mike is saying if he wasnt about to start CL.

Just so you all know, I am not an advocate for Mike at all. I just don't like seeing this senseless BS.

[Mike Ratledge]

So your complaint is that Jackson's business is making too much money? Why is that a problem for you?

Never has been and never will be. Just like sinjin7 basically said, we're all sheep, and have been. I am as tired of being played as anyone else. The only reason why that might be a problem is too much kool-aid. I have had enough at this point, like any sane or reasonable person should have.

You say that "we just lined his crib once again" -- so despite your anger you ponied-up?

/bama

See above. Always have, always will. I like his stuff, you don't? I believe that there's a point where you have too much of a good thing. We passed that point long ago.

[Mike Ratledge]

Those costs converge to zero for all practical purposes, and we shouldn't even be paying $12 for the darned things, decks are about $5 each - that's it! I'm not going there this time, but I have the cure.

Mike, I hope you remember this for when CardLauncher starts.

Yep, me too for all concerned. I hope nobody minds paying $6 or $7 a deck. Could be wrong.. Your mileage will vary, that's a guarantee. CL is the cure in this case.

[Mike Ratledge]

This is getting old everyone. Yes, mike is about to start his own crowdfunding site but does that mean he can't still give his opinion anymore. I can see where it could be seen as a conflict of interest or criticizing the competition but so what. Do you really think when CL is up and running, it won't have the same thing happen to him? There are several members here that can't wait to shove any and all issues that arise back in Mike's face. None of you would think anything about what Mike is saying if he wasnt about to start CL.

Just so you all know, I am not an advocate for Mike at all. I just don't like seeing this senseless BS.

Yep, sorry. I keep forgetting that I am no longer entitled to express my opinion any more...
Everyone else seems entitled? Oh, I forgot, I will shut up again.

[chach]

Those costs converge to zero for all practical purposes, and we shouldn't even be paying $12 for the darned things, decks are about $5 each - that's it! I'm not going there this time, but I have the cure.

Mike, I hope you remember this for when CardLauncher starts.

Yep, me too for all concerned. I hope nobody minds paying $6 or $7 a deck. Could be wrong.. Your mileage will vary, that's a guarantee. CL is the cure in this case.

Sorry, but lower costs for the producer does not always equal lower costs to the consumer. The whole idea to sell something is to make money. One doesn't sell decks because they like it and want to enlighten the world with little bits of art. No, one creates a deck for that purpose but they sell it to make money. And when given the choice of selling a deck for $5 or $8, knowing that people will line up out the door to pay either price, 99% of the producers will go for the higher price point. They may not go the full $8 but they certainly won't go $5. It's just bad business sense leaving money on the table. It's all basic economics 101, supply and demand.

CL may provide a better price to people creating the decks, and we as consumers may see a drop in avg costs per deck at first, but those prices will slowly creep back up as producers realize they can charge more and not see a drop in sales, but eventually the market balances out. That's what we're seeing with Jackson currently, a market correction is all. As his prices increase, more people are grumbling and not purchasing the Tally-Ho deck because supply & price are outweighing demand. Again, all basic economics. The only way to ensure that prices remain low would be by sanctions and regulations and that just interferes with the free market system and has been the subject of many a masters thesis.

[Firthetic]

Those costs converge to zero for all practical purposes, and we shouldn't even be paying $12 for the darned things, decks are about $5 each - that's it! I'm not going there this time, but I have the cure.

Mike, I hope you remember this for when CardLauncher starts.

Yep, me too for all concerned. I hope nobody minds paying $6 or $7 a deck. Could be wrong.. Your mileage will vary, that's a guarantee. CL is the cure in this case.

Sorry, but lower costs for the producer does not always equal lower costs to the consumer. The whole idea to sell something is to make money. One doesn't sell decks because they like it and want to enlighten the world with little bits of art. No, one creates a deck for that purpose but they sell it to make money. And when given the choice of selling a deck for $5 or $8, knowing that people will line up out the door to pay either price, 99% of the producers will go for the higher price point. They may not go the full $8 but they certainly won't go $5. It's just bad business sense leaving money on the table. It's all basic economics 101, supply and demand.

CL may provide a better price to people creating the decks, and we as consumers may see a drop in avg costs per deck at first, but those prices will slowly creep back up as producers realize they can charge more and not see a drop in sales, but eventually the market balances out. That's what we're seeing with Jackson currently, a market correction is all. As his prices increase, more people are grumbling and not purchasing the Tally-Ho deck because supply & price are outweighing demand. Again, all basic economics. The only way to ensure that prices remain low would be by sanctions and regulations and that just interferes with the free market system and has been the subject of many a masters thesis.

You're reading too much into what I said

I don't begrudge Mike making a profit off CL and all the rest of the things he's cooked up. I realise that the days of paying $5 for a deck are long gone, but $15 for a deck is still a hard pill to swallow. If CL can find that price point sweet spot, we'll all be happier for it. It's basic economics.

[Mike Ratledge]

Sorry, but lower costs for the producer does not always equal lower costs to the consumer. The whole idea to sell something is to make money. One doesn't sell decks because they like it and want to enlighten the world with little bits of art. No, one creates a deck for that purpose but they sell it to make money. And when given the choice of selling a deck for $5 or $8, knowing that people will line up out the door to pay either price, 99% of the producers will go for the higher price point. They may not go the full $8 but they certainly won't go $5. It's just bad business sense leaving money on the table. It's all basic economics 101, supply and demand.

CL may provide a better price to people creating the decks, and we as consumers may see a drop in avg costs per deck at first, but those prices will slowly creep back up as producers realize they can charge more and not see a drop in sales, but eventually the market balances out. That's what we're seeing with Jackson currently, a market correction is all. As his prices increase, more people are grumbling and not purchasing the Tally-Ho deck because supply & price are outweighing demand. Again, all basic economics. The only way to ensure that prices remain low would be by sanctions and regulations and that just interferes with the free market system and has been the subject of many a masters thesis.

You couldn't be further from the truth, frankly. The entire margin spread across the 100% ownership is 5%, that being a max of about 40 or maybe 50 cents, so I suppose between mine and the wife's share, I am ripping everybody off at least a dime. I guess if I multiply that times 100,000 I might actually make enough to pay the rent a few times per year. The whole point is that we Guarantee Rewards Delivery, instead of taking our nickel and laughing all the way to the bank even if nobody gets a darned thing - ever. They have been doing that for years, now, which is why there are about $500,000 worth of projects in our "Hall of Shame". I thought I could do better, and I was right. I guess I would have never considered doing it if they ever once turned around and pursued any of the fraudulent projects, but it's not happening. Nobody has to risk a dime any more - you are always assured that you will get what you pay for (not the right words since it's a pledge, not a sale, but close enough). I suppose you are right, though; there is no way I can force people to pass the savings we are giving everybody along to the backers, even though they are getting better prices across the board by some 15-20% or more in almost every case. I don't really think it's wise to tempt the U S Department of Justice to visit for "price fixing", either - whether it was truly fair - or not. Never-the-less, if we get even better pricing, eventually that should trickle down, although I have to admit nobody is forcing it upon anyone. We can only try to make it more fair, insure that people get the items the back with pledges, try to make certain that it's equitable to everybody from the project creators to the backers and make it as flexible as it can possibly be without requiring a calculator popped up on your screen every single time you make a pledge that isn't "one tier fits all". Nah, not worth the time for a dime, frankly...

I just hope that people are reasonable enough to make it where you can still get decks for $8 each, which is what they should cost - instead of $15-$20. Even with shipping for that worst case single deck, it just shouldn't be more than $12 unless there is something truly special and/or different / new about the deck. When you get up around a brick, the normal good - no great - deck these days should be around $7 delivered - or less. Surely someone in the group will do bricks delivered for $6 each, but indeed I cannot force them to do so. It's possible to do basic decks for $5 when you're talking about at least a brick. Now, I feel certain that the tendency will be to pile on every conceivable bell and whistle to inflate the price up to - umm - $8 or $9? Heck, that would be a sin.

[jerichoholic]

This isn't a staple deck, this isn't affordable at $16 shipped per deck after July 21, and its not limited - I don't care whether there is a small v1, v2, etc. at the bottom of each box for each printing run. From the pics, there doesn't seem to be any embossing or foil or interior printing/foiling on the inside of the tuck. We won't get these decks until December. And why only a blue deck? You know a red one is coming, just do them together to save us on shipping (which by the way, is done through his shipping co.).

Jackson sold most of his regular edition custom decks for $12 shipped on KS, along with all the KS and Amazon fees included as well as tucks with all the bells and whistles. He's now set up his own "crowd funding" site to save on those fees. All this is great - believe me, I don't begrudge Jackson wanting to make money, that's his prerogative and he needs to make profit to continue to do what he does. Just be open and frank about it and say, "I want to make more money!". Don't come here and spout inaccurate nonsense about "staple" decks or act like you're doing us this big favor by being so proud to be offering us an affordable fully custom deck at a lower price point when its not. Damn, who do you think you're fooling? Honesty and transparency is always the best policy....

Wait, these aren't shipping til December? What the hell?

[chach]

Mike, I didn't intend to begrudge you for making a profit, I was trying to point out that while the project creators will be able to produce their decks for less because of the partnerships you have hammered out doesn't necessarily mean that those savings will be passed on to the customer. Producers know what people will willfully pay for a deck and while lower costs should equate to lower prices that rarely happens in the real world because the deck producers are looking to maximize their profits.

We're seeing this happen right now with decks being released by EPCC. Everybody and their mother knows that it costs less to produce a deck through EPCC than through USPCC, yet the decks are, on average, priced the same as decks printed by USPCC.

So while it's awesome that you've created these opportunities for producers to save money when printing their decks I highly doubt the end customers will see the savings.

[MagikFingerz]

We're seeing this happen right now with decks being released by EPCC. Everybody and their mother knows that it costs less to produce a deck through EPCC than through USPCC, yet the decks are, on average, priced the same as decks printed by USPCC.

Well, in that case it's usually a matter of lower print runs. Everything else being equal, I would think that a 1000 deck EPCC print run doesn't cost much less per deck than a 2500 deck USPCC print run.

And the main gripe people have here is the deck should be cheaper because Jackson touted it as such, not because of its production costs.

[Bikefanatic]

I don't fully read this thread but yea I thought this were already made or similar to how Blue Crown's 2014 Brazil came out. To get nearby Christmas is a long time but looking at my Kickstarter decks I already paid for, I'll have at least 31+ decks to have me occupied before then.

[Mike Ratledge]

You know, if he really wanted to make it up to the UC members, he should get a list of members buying his tally ho decks and sign them. That would definitely be a start.

Why would he do that? He's already said that the 10% of his customer base that UC represents doesn't matter to him.

And a big +1 to what Sinjin said, agreed 100%, there is much truth spoken in jest.

It does seem like he could have done the $5 fix for the $50 problem like we suggested: buy a set of clear Avery labels, sign the darned things and put them in an envelope and mail them out. It would work for me as opposed to getting my $8 back or 'exchange', which wasn't offered. It would be one thing if he hadn't offered, but "I forgot"? Seriously? "Oh, now that I remembered you don't matter"... Not the way to treat your best customers, just my opinion, which I don't seem entitled to these days according to most people.

[vasta41]

Jacksons inactivity on this forum the past few weeks leads me to believe he has a guilty conscience. We called him out and his lack of denial or comment on here just means we hit the nail on the head. Tisk tisk

Does anyone else think Jackson tried to pull the wool over our eyes? As if he thought, "I make great cards (which he obviously does) and I seem to have a loyal fanbase (which he obviously did). They're perfectly happy buying whatever I make at a $12 price point so why don't I try to make a few extra bucks and everyone will flock like always and be none the wiser!" Like fame maybe went to his head or something of the sort. And his one big mistake this campaign is underestimating our sharp tongues and ability to dig up the truth.

Because that's how I feel at least. But having said all that, he still was able to sell a bunch of these (so maybe he doesn't really care) and I'm still looking forward to all the other decks he's teased. Hell, I was looking forward to this deck too but just couldn't pull the triggor based on principle.

[Mike Ratledge]

Not even touching that one. See previous comments. There was such an easy fix, I just don't understand why he sat there and told us he couldn't do anything. That's just crap.

[Gareth]

Wait, these aren't shipping til December? What the hell?

You've hit the nail on the head why I haven't backed... or whatever... this.

So essentially I have to pony up $8 per deck + postage ($4 for 1, cost per deck reducing as you get more) now, and wait around until the end of the year to get 'em? (an unlimited, always available deck). Ahh, no thanks.

The only thing seeming to pushing people to follow through is the 'threat' that the price will be $12 + postage in the future. Hmmpf, I'll be 'happy' to pay $12 (or whatever they get discounted to from time-to-time) when they're actually available.

[Sher]

And the main gripe people have here is the deck should be cheaper because Jackson touted it as such, not because of its production costs.

Yeah, I thought this was the main issue. If Jackson didn't say anything about it being cheaper, maybe the price wouldn't have been so much of an issue, since no one had any expectations.

Jacksons inactivity on this forum the past few weeks leads me to believe he has a guilty conscience. We called him out and his lack of denial or comment on here just means we hit the nail on the head. Tisk tisk

Does anyone else think Jackson tried to pull the wool over our eyes? As if he thought, "I make great cards (which he obviously does) and I seem to have a loyal fanbase (which he obviously did). They're perfectly happy buying whatever I make at a $12 price point so why don't I try to make a few extra bucks and everyone will flock like always and be none the wiser!" Like fame maybe went to his head or something of the sort. And his one big mistake this campaign is underestimating our sharp tongues and ability to dig up the truth.

Because that's how I feel at least. But having said all that, he still was able to sell a bunch of these (so maybe he doesn't really care) and I'm still looking forward to all the other decks he's teased. Hell, I was looking forward to this deck too but just couldn't pull the triggor based on principle.

Yes, I agree with you. I don't begrudge Jackson for trying to make money, I just think he was being misleading when he said the Tally-ho's would be a cheap and affordable deck. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, though. He may not have intended to be misleading. The price actually doesn't bother me too much. If I liked it enough (which I don't, though this is purely preference and I still admit the artwork looks nice and Jackson is a very talented artist), I would have sucked it up and bought it. Hell, I've bought much pricier decks before.

But frankly, I'm not surprised that he would try to get as much money for it as he could. Remember when his site first went live and the Fed 52 decks were priced at $50? He tried to sell it for as high as it would go, and then when sales slowed down, he lowered the prices. Again, I don't begrudge him for that. At least that time he didn't tell us it would be "cheap."

Also - we hope the prices of CL decks are lower due to the price savings of both production and fulfillment that CL is providing project creators, but chach is right, CL does not choose the price per deck - the creators do. Therefore, while we endeavor to lower deck prices, we cannot guarantee it in each case, and I hope this is clear. If you eventually see a CL campaign with a deck priced at $15+, know that we did our best to make decks affordable but it is the creator's prerogative whether the price savings are passed on to the backer.

[Widdee]

If I liked it enough (which I don't, though this is purely preference and I still admit the artwork looks nice and Jackson is a very talented artist), I would have sucked it up and bought it. Hell, I've bought much pricier decks before.

Excellent post Sher! You pretty much summed it up for me, this part in particular. I think Jackson is a victim of his own success here. I'm not feeling this design compared to the same price I've paid for much nicer, indeed exquisite offerings from him before. This is exacerbated by his statement that this would be a low-priced staple deck when, in fact, it isn't. For these two reason I'm not interested in buying any of them.

[DelMagic]

I think it is a safe bet that many of the buyers of this decks, especially the gross level, are hoping to cash in on the resale market with a Jackson deck. I don't think there are a whole bunch of magicians and cardists out there buying these decks to use them as their staple deck. I think card players are even less likely to be buying these. This will work a time or two, until the resellers find out there is not a big resale market for these. And, I don't see how there will be resale market if the deck truly is reproduced continually.

[hikeeba]

Traditionally cut. That's the only reason I ordered them. I have my stock of Turner Bees and Bikes and I'll add these to them. (Of course, I'll be selling the Silver Certificate deck to defray the cost.)

[DelMagic]

Hikeeba,

You are not the normal magician, nor am I. A few others here are like us as well, since we are serious collectors. Most magicians would break out in a cold sweat if you asked them to pay over $4.00 for a working deck. I know I have had almost no success in selling the premium decks on The Magic Cafe or in my local magic club. I've offered decks at big discounts and have seen little to no interest at those two places.

Ebay works well, but it reaches such a wide audience that you don't always know if magicians or collectors are buying your items.

[tylergo]

So if I have read this thread correctly they are not shipping till December? I was looking on the site and did not see a ship date.

[PrincessTrouble]

The info on the site says Estimated Delivery: December 2014

Haven't heard anything more specific.

[Firthetic]

New update on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/kingswildproject):

Just got the Kings Wild Tally Ho decks in today, and they look awesome! For those of you who back the project on Kings Wild Funded we will start fulfilling your rewards sometime next week. If you were keeping an eye on the delivery date, that is almost three months early!

[rousselle]

My, but those look yummy.

[Bikefanatic]

Great news. I did get an address confirmation in my email. Maybe he knew these would be going out 2 months earlier in the first place or they were close to being made.