The Hive Deck - New King's Wild Deck Now Available

[vasta41]

It would be nice if Jack$on could come on here and explain things. Too bad he burned his bridges here by insulting all of us with his blatant disrespect for our wallets and intelligence. Mike- I commend you on not suggesting a boycot. But that's exactly what I'm doing. Jack$on has fallen from my graces with his newly swelled head and ego. I did not buy the Tallys and I won't be buying these. And as beautiful as the decks are, I'm actually happy NOT owning them and keeping my hard-earned money out of Jack$ons hands.

[Lotrek]

Did anyone notice that if you remove KingsWildProject from the frame, we just have a "not bad" deck?

[mmiikk]

wow. and not in a good way! ill be passing on these

[Godzillian]

Honestly, I think all these jacked up EPCC prices for "Limited to 1000" decks are due to Encarded's Zenith. They sold out quickly but was sold at a premium price of $20. Then we started seeing other companies and designers follow suit like 4PM (Tenebre). At the same time, we saw only a few designers use EPCC but keep their prices less than $13 shipped... but only when their print run was more around 2000+. Now all the big names and large companies are using EPCC because Limited deck runs have higher profit margins than regular deck runs, which would be a reason why they'd actually go with 1000 decks instead of 2500 decks.

So what's going on is that yes, I believe EPCC does increase prices for limited runs, but the problem is that EVERYONE (the big names) is doing limited runs now. We need to have LESS 1000 deck runs, and have 2000 or even 2500 deck runs (same as USPC). Because we're so saturated with limited runs these days, and we're so used to the pricing, we fall for it regardless of how ridiculous the cost of a deck is.

Refer to Sher's opinion:

it's $18 a deck. Yeah, it's EPCC and it's still pricey, but I've come to accept that most decks outside of crowd funding are going to cost somewhere between $15-$25.

See!? We've become so used to $15+ decks outside of crowdfunding, many people swallow the pill and accept it... Because there's so many damn 1000 Limited runs from EPCC. It's only a matter of time before we start seeing the leftover "pure" companies like Gambler's Warehouse or CPC to do the same thing too and get EPCC to create Limited Editions of decks and sell them for higher prices to make better profit margins.

The solution is to have people use EPCC, but not limit their print runs to 1000. Print runs of 2000, or 2500 would probably (hopefully) fix this problem of exorberant prices. An example of this is Heretic. Yes, it was $11/16 a pop, but the EB Brick was only $95/120, and then he even had freebies after that. For reference, here are Lorenzo's print numbers for that deck, from his KS update:

I counted ~4000 Lux and ~3800 Noctis. A LOT. The final order will be higher since I want a batch for myself and some back-up decks.

EDIT: Don't worry Sher, not picking on you! There's many people who have the same opinion as you do, such as I recently. It's just easier to use your quote as a representative of that perspective.

[Mike Ratledge]

Frankly I didn't mind paying $20 a deck for Paul's "Zenith" decks, because they were truly exceptional, had out-of-this-world tucks with that refractive ("rainbow") effect and were just a perfect example of what a limited edition deck should be. These are limited for one reason: to make more money. Just does not make sense to me.

[Sher]

it's $18 a deck. Yeah, it's EPCC and it's still pricey, but I've come to accept that most decks outside of crowd funding are going to cost somewhere between $15-$25.

This is the problem. Its comments and attitudes like this that enable people like King$ Wild to jack prices. We DO NOT have to accept these prices. It is preposterous that a Taiwanese made deck in a 2000 print run should cost this much and I hope people will vote with their wallets to shut this kind of BS down. If this price doesn't include shipping, then we're giving King$ Wild $22.00 per deck shipped ($20.50 per pair) if they follow the same shipping model as Jack$on's Tally Ho's.

I like the Hive deck, but I don't think it's better than, say, Fed52 or any of Uusi's decks that are at almost half the price for decks printed by the USPCC. I'm equating King$ Wild with D$D now. This is a blatant cash grab, which they're entitled to do if they want, but I'm not participating.

I was looking at it like this - $18 is on par with the price of most decks post-campaign. Ex. Uusi's Pagan Ivory is $20 on their site. An Aquila Standard Edition is $17.15. So I figured, why complain over this $18 deck, when I see that people are willing to buy other comparable decks for that cost? Granted, the Hive was never on Kickstarter, so it never had an initial low price point of $11-$12. But if people complain about this $18 deck, shouldn't people also complain about the $17.15 Aquila deck? I'm not trying to convince people to do this, or trying to make Aquila look bad, I'm just making a point.

Kings Wild has been charging premium prices for each of their decks ever since Fed 52, and it's only turning into a huge thing now? Fed 52 was $50! I remember that some people complained about the price when the King's Wild website first went live, but it's only now that Jackson is really really getting heat over the pricing and I can't help but feel that it's some bias.

I know I've said a thing or two about deck pricing in past, especially on KS decks. I mentioned that I wouldn't pay more than $11 for an EPCC deck and $12 for a USPCC deck, especially given that fully embellished tuck boxes have sold for those prices. *However* I further stated that since art and beauty is subjective some decks may be worth more to one person than it is to another, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone who paid a high price for something that I didn't think was worth that much, especially since I myself have paid a great deal of money for certain decks. I also make exceptions to the $11-$12 rule if I find a deck with a design that I really really like.

So to me, it's not just the production costs you have to consider, but how much the art is worth, too. If the vendor/seller has set the price at an amount that is too high than the public's perceived value, then eventually the vendor/seller will be forced to lower the prices if enough of it doesn't sell, and the market corrects itself. If the Hive sells, then obviously enough people think it's worth $18.

If I like a deck enough, I'll suck it up and buy it at the asking price, because I think the design is worth it. I know you think that people like me are a problem, but I don't think it's right for you to impose your view on others. If you don't think the design is worth $18 and want to vote by your wallet, then fine. If I want to pay for the deck because I think the design is worth it, I should be free to do so.

[Maddest Hammer]

Well, I apparently seriously misunderstood the pricing. That said, not sure I want to fork out $34 plus shipping for, as Lotrék said, "a not bad" pair of decks...

[Godzillian]

Frankly I didn't mind paying $20 a deck for Paul's "Zenith" decks, because they were truly exceptional, had out-of-this-world tucks with that refractive ("rainbow") effect and were just a perfect example of what a limited edition deck should be. These are limited for one reason: to make more money. Just does not make sense to me.

That's true, but can you deny that it was Zenith that started the whole $20/deck thing?

Another thing that made Zenith more Limited is that people were limited to buying 4. Tenebre is also Limited because people were only allowed to buy 6 (even though people could've just created another KS account and buy another 6...).

I think I'm getting off-track so if there's enough interest, I can create a thread about jacked up EPCC deck prices.

[MagikFingerz]

The solution is to have people use EPCC, but not limit their print runs to 1000. Print runs of 2000, or 2500 would probably (hopefully) fix this problem of exorberant prices.

While that will probably help too, I think we as customers also need to change our views on 1000 limited runs. The fact that creators CAN price decks as high as they do just means we put too much weight into it. The fact is that nobody can accurately predict the demand of a certain deck before it's put up for sale, and for a lot of decks 1000 isn't really that limited (in this community, anyway). Yes, it's about voting with our wallets, but I think we need to change our perspective first.

[Mike Ratledge]

Frankly I didn't mind paying $20 a deck for Paul's "Zenith" decks, because they were truly exceptional, had out-of-this-world tucks with that refractive ("rainbow") effect and were just a perfect example of what a limited edition deck should be. These are limited for one reason: to make more money. Just does not make sense to me.

That's true, but can you deny that it was Zenith that started the whole $20/deck thing?

Another thing that made Zenith more Limited is that people were limited to buying 4. Tenebre is also Limited because people were only allowed to buy 6 (even though people could've just created another KS account and buy another 6...).

I think I'm getting off-track so if there's enough interest, I can create a thread about jacked up EPCC deck prices.

No, you can't argue that, but I still go back to "there's an advantage to being first" also. Paul's Zenith is just a fabulous deck all the way around. I agree that all those things are subjective, and I also agree with Lotrek that if you didn't know who made this deck (and it's not Jackson, it's Jackson's people) then you might not even look at it. It's a nice deck, it's not an $18 deck or $34 per pair deck. Nothing special, nothing innovative, nothing new - just nice, no let's go with decent.

I commend Jackson for trying to branch out and bring new artists into the fold at Kings Wild, but the fact is if he immediately goes and prices those artists out of the market he's really doing them a disservice, because they could easily do this themselves by CrowdFunding them, make more money and not charge insane prices, either.

[TGunitedcardists]

For everyone talking about price in this thread that lives in America, next time you consider buying a deck on Kickstarter or on a "crowdfunded" site, only look at the international price. Would you still buy at that price?

Even if these decks sell out, I think Brendan Hong would make more money on his own, running his own Kickstarter campaign, lowering the price and not limiting the print run. How much value was added by Kings Wild?

[sinjin7]

I know you think that people like me are a problem, but I don't think it's right for you to impose your view on others. If you don't think the design is worth $18 and want to vote by your wallet, then fine. If I want to pay for the deck because I think the design is worth it, I should be free to do so.

I'm not imposing my view on anyone. For me to think that people like you (or the enabling attitude you have that fosters these ridiculous prices for playing cards) are a problem is my opinion to have and express on a public forum. I can't force you or anyone to do anything. You are certainly free to do whatever you want and there's nothing that I do or say that can prevent that. BUT, If we don't have critical discussions like these on a forum that I believe has some influence on the industry, then people like D$D and King$ Wild will be free to line us up like docile cows with unimpeded access to our udders to milk away to their greedy heart's content.

Yes, it's about voting with our wallets, but I think we need to change our perspective first.

THIS is what I'm talking about.

[badpete69]

I am with Sher on this one. I personally find Sinjin post insulting and a big turnoff. Yes everyone is allowed to post what they think and they should, but it just makes want to stop reading . How much more can you guys beat a dead horse. I will be buying the Hive not because I am enabling anything but because I like the deck

end of story

[vasta41]

Yes, it's about voting with our wallets, but I think we need to change our perspective first.

THIS is what I'm talking about.

Agreed. And I've already done so. Problem is I feel like a vegetarian- the cows are still being slaughtered. We are now a minority and as long as D$D and KW fanboys keep shelling out the dough, this kind crap will continue. Not for long I hope. Pride before the fall...

[Mike Ratledge]

I am with Sher on this one. I personally find Sinjin post insulting and a big turnoff. Yes everyone is allowed to post what they think and they should, but it just makes want to stop reading . How much more can you guys beat a dead horse. I will be buying the Hive not because I am enabling anything but because I like the deck

end of story

So, Pete - if I said you can get the Mana #3 "Reserve" Silver & Gold decks for that same $18 - how many would you purchase? Those are going to be available in about the same time-frame, I'm thinking maybe about the 5th or no later than the 7th. I know it looks ready to me, so Erik might pull the trigger on the 3rd, even. The 'standard' #3 decks will be going for $13 CAD, which for all intents and purposes is about $12.50

(and yes, I'm WAY off-topic for this thread)

[badpete69]

I currently buy only 1 deck of each except for a few very exceptions . I would buy one deck. If it was $25 i would still buy 1 deck. And I wouldn't come on the forums and call the people that choose not to buy the deck cheapskate or killer of the industry or enablers of blah blah. I would respect their choice and move on. How come no one whined on the Zenith deck which is exactly the same thing and situation

[Mike Ratledge]

I currently buy only 1 deck of each except for a few very exceptions . I would buy one deck. If it was $25 i would still buy 1 deck. And I wouldn't come on the forums and call the people that choose not to buy the deck cheapskate or killer of the industry or enablers of blah blah. I would respect their choice and move on. How come no one whined on the Zenith deck which is exactly the same thing and situation

Ummm... Because it was SO much better than these? Again, everything is subjective, these just aren't anywhere near up to the same level as Zenith - in my humble opinion.

[sinjin7]

I am with Sher on this one. I personally find Sinjin post insulting and a big turnoff. Yes everyone is allowed to post what they think and they should, but it just makes want to stop reading . How much more can you guys beat a dead horse. I will be buying the Hive not because I am enabling anything but because I like the deck

end of story

Then stop reading. Keep that spot in line and prepare for sore udders.

[chach]

I've said it before and I hate to repeat myself but this is what happens when retailers (King$ Wild in this case) focus on the secondary market rather than just being retailers. Jack$on acquired this mindset after the Fed52 campaign inbetween the time that the campaign was being fulfilled and decks went on sale through his storefront.

Seeing that the decks were going for such high rates on eBay and such, he found the extra decks that he also treated as his personal stash was all of a sudden a hot commodity and jacked up the prices to be even with the secondary market rather than be a proper retailer. Also, does anyone remember when Jack$on used excess decks from the campaign to trade with other collectors and expand his collection? Those of us that participated in the campaigns basically funded the hundreds of excess decks that he then treated as his own collection, rather than the business that was to be started...

Rather than price decks accordingly, he priced them at secondary market rates for no other reason than to bring in extra profit. Why sell at $15 or $20 when one can sell at $50 after all? It's capitalism and his prerogative yes, but also rather greedy and despicable. I think that Jack$on's captivation with money doesn't just end with the art, I hate to say it but I can just picture him acting like Uncle Scrooge in the opening sequence of Ducktales, swimming through the mounds of money that we've all thrown his way. And the sad thing is, that even though I won't be getting this deck, I know I'll be further lining his coffers with his future releases of the military decks and baseball decks. Not to mention the upcoming USPCC civil war release, though that will be a semi guilt free purchase since it's coming direct from USPCC.

Anyways, I'm done talking negatively about people for now, it's grating on my nerves and racking me with guilt. I wish Brandon the best with this release, but my card info won't be transmitted for this deck after all.

[badpete69]

What I am talking about Mike has nothing to do with quality, design looks etc etc. Yes that is all subjective. What I am talking about is that beef that many have against Jackson. It is ok to have beef and express your opinion, that is what forums are for. But man can you guys beat a dead horse over and over again. We get the point. Now I do not know Jackson personally but have chatted briefly with him in the past and recently. I am not coming to his defense, he can do that himself. I actually am not either a major fanboy of Jackson. I have liked his stuff but I have told him in the past that his decks are getting repetitive in term of looks and design and that something new and fresh would be cool

I just don't like people shitting on me because I buy a deck and then cause this illusionnary enabling of things. As you say we are free to buy what we want. Let's do that and move on.

And yes Sinjin people like you are what are destroying forums in my opinion and I am definitively stopping reading any of your stuff. Keep at it with your whining you are free to do so

[Mike Ratledge]

What I am talking about Mike has nothing to do with quality, design looks etc etc. Yes that is all subjective. What I am talking about is that beef that many have against Jackson. It is ok to have beef and express your opinion, that is what forums are for. But man can you guys beat a dead horse over and over again. We get the point. Now I do not know Jackson personally but have chatted briefly with him in the past and recently. I am not coming to his defense, he can do that himself. I actually am not either a major fanboy of Jackson. I have liked his stuff but I have told him in the past that his decks are getting repetitive in term of looks and design and that something new and fresh would be cool

That's what I already said, Pete: "it's subjective". I guess I shouldn't comment that Jackson is literally printing money now, huh? (new campaign for $5 "Silver Certificate" prints that are $40 each). I can't say much, I got one. They're beautiful, and I just can't say otherwise.

[chach]

And yes Sinjin people like you are what are destroying forums in my opinion and I am definitively stopping reading any of your stuff. Keep at it with your whining you are free to do so

Sorry, I just find this funny and no offense to you Badpete, but a moderator that openly says he won't read someone's posts. Anyone else see the irony there?

[Eoghann]

As one who bought 4 Zenith's without flinching, an additional Gold Venexiana on top of the freebie, and has a knack for buying $50 prototypes...can't say I feel entitled to throw any stones.

Everyone loves having money just as much as everyone loves spending it. All I ask the designers is to price their decks honestly. This goes for everybody, not just Jackson.

Debates like these have been going on forever. Dan and Dave, Ellusionist and few others have all received flak for their crazy schemes. But that hasn't slowed them down in the slightest. There's always somebody that will purchase their decks. In due time, Lotrek, Lorenzo, Paul, Randy and many other rising stars will have to deal with this sort of criticism. It's human nature. We cheer for them as they rise up to the heavens, but once they're up there, we want to knock those greedy, cocky bastards a few pegs.

Have I felt that sting of the previously mentioned decks? Absolutely. But I wanted them. That's the decisive factor. I can scream about the prices across the rooftops all day, as they sell out. Leaving me to go buy them triple priced on eBay.

The bubble will burst any day now. Might as well get comfy and enjoy the ride in the meantime.

[CBJ]

Holy SH*T people.

If you don't like someone's prices.. Jackson or anyone else, don't buy their products.



I found it strange that over the last few weeks, 3 different people have reached out to me and asked which forums I frequent... now I know why.



***** MODERATORS / ADMINS - can you please separate the pricing debate BS from the actual HIVE posts.

[Cbkimble]

Short and sweet. I'm in for a pair of the hive. I'm not in for JW's $5 print. Many of you are ruining this forum, myself included for making comments before I knew complete facts.

Eoghann, I couldn't agree more...the bubble will bust any day.

[sinjin7]

Wow, I think my post got deleted! I guess I just have to repost it, sorry.

Keep at it with your whining you are free to do so

There's nothing as non-productive and ironic as whining about whining. It is not my intent to destroy forums or try to make personal attacks on any individual. Even my response to Sher's post was not meant as a knock on her, but rather a comment to make the point that we don't have to give in to escalating prices, but if you're willing to pay these escalating prices, of course you're more than free to do so. What's shocking to me is that we have a moderator that's so opposed to critical discussion on a public forum. News flash: This is what happens on public forums. But I guess this is a concept that's flown over Pierre's head, especially since he's not reading this....

[Eoghann]

Ok Pierre, the man has a right to his opinion. We've agreed we wouldn't be deleting posts from now on....even Jay's and Sinjin's.

Just do what they do everytime I post: skip to the next one.

@Jay: it is what it is man. Nearly every thread is plagued by such debates. We're not your cleaning ladies. I suppose we'd have to purge all yours and everyone else's barking in other threads not directly related to decks now. And frankly, we've all got better things to do. Discussion stays. We're just here to make sure it stays civilized...somewhat.

[Godzillian]

So uh...yeah... The Hive... wait what was this thread about again?

I really really like these cards, but I choose not to buy them because of the price point. This doesn't mean I'm going to stop myself from buying any of Jackson's stuff. It just means I need to become more selective in picking what decks I like enough to buy them, no matter the price point. I paid $200 CAD for 2 Venexiana Gold decks (which I can't wait for), because I expected that kind of price point for the quality of work that was done on those cards. I did not expect a hefty $18 price point on these cards - that was kind of out of the blue compared to the prices that JR has done before. Perhaps I was spoiled by the KS pricing of the FED52s and his other decks. Maybe I didn't realize that funding this yourself, and not by crowd-funding, means you get a higher risk, so you increase your deck prices to break even with your investment sooner.

This deck is really nice, but it's no different design-wise from any other successfully funded KS deck that's custom. The only thing going for it is (a) the KingsWild "brand" and (b) the print run.

Guys, KingsWildProject is not just Jackson Robinson. There's a bunch of people with the fulfillment center that he has to pay. And JR's not a millionaire or even rich I bet - he just has a ton of decks to play with and a lot of ideas to implement. He needs to make money to pay off those people and have a life himself. HE'S HUMAN EVERYONE, HE EATS AND NEEDS A ROOF TO LIVE UNDER TOO!!!!!

Now I don't know how Brendan Hong is doing this with JR, whether it's a partnership (50/50) or JR is helping him for free, but either way, that $18/deck has to go somewhere, and yes it goes into their wallets... but that's how they live! These decks are essentially a pillar of their career!!!

When I complained about high price points, I still believe in that $20/deck is atrocious and must be stopped. But that being said, people are still going to buy JR's decks - that's why he can command a high price with his custom decks post-KS. He's built that sort of reputation. So since I can't really do much to stop the high EPCC pricing, I might as well deal with it in the only way I can - not buy them. (well, I'll also complain about them, why not?)

Btw guys, remember when that Kickstarter from Australia or New Zealand came out, and it had fantastic artwork, but the campaign creator actually commissioned someone to do the artwork? As such, the price of that deck was pretty darn high. But no one complained about anyone complaining about that pricing. I'm sure someone can pinpoint the deck I'm talking about but right now I'm brainfarting.

[Mirror]

And yes Sinjin people like you are what are destroying forums in my opinion and I am definitively stopping reading any of your stuff. Keep at it with your whining you are free to do so

I wouldn't say he's destroying the forums. While I must admit that I haven't seen Sinjin being happy with anything for a while now, that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be allowed to post what he wants to post.

[sinjin7]

I feel like I'm entering into the Twilight Zone as I'm about to say this, but I think Pierre may be right: if you don't like certain discussions or individuals, just skip their posts. Its so simple to do and will save you a lot of aggravation. Again, in the Twilight Zone here, but even I am getting tired of railing against what I believe to be unreasonable prices. However, the price of decks is integral to the deck itself, so I don't believe these topics should be divided.

Even though it may appear at times like no one's paying attention, people like D$D and Jack$on do pay attention to what's said on UC. We don't have personal phone lines to contact them directly, so why not use this forum to try to make our points and try to make changes for the better? I believe it can be done because we, collectively, on UC can be influential. know, I know, some people get weary of all the "bitching" and "whining", but unfortunately that's what it takes sometimes to get people's attention.

I like the fact that (for the most part), we're not sycophantic fanboys of certain companies or people stumbling over ourselves to be "Yes" men. We're independent, and have minds and opinions of our own, and I hope UC is the place where you can find the truth, as brutal or bitter as it may be. I also hope this is a place where we can have divergent opinions but can still co-exist with each other without trying to shout each other down.

I must admit that I haven't seen Sinjin being happy with anything for a while now.

LOL! That's pretty funny. Have I become a grumpy old man now? "Hey you! Get off my lawn!" I was happy about the Hive deck since I think Brandon did a fantastic job, but it appears I will not be owning this deck, not because I can't afford it, but due to principle, and that doesn't make me happy. I guess I'm just going to have to wait for Uusi's 6th deck to be happy again...