Censorship at UnitedCardists

[montecarlojoe]

Would there be a way to make it so that no one person could delete a post or thread?

Not really. There has to be at least one admin who has access to do anything.

However, I have seen some talk in the Modification forums talking about a Soft Delete which marks a post/thread as deleted but doesn't immediately wipe it (like your deskto waste bin). Of course that wouldn't stop someone determined from doing a hard delete, but it's a safeguard none the less.

I'll look into it.

[Mike Ratledge]

It's as permanent as deleting a user record, which you are painfully aware, as is Pierre ("badpete69"). The only reason I got the two of you back is because Mike F. - for whatever reason - left this place in shambles. I could do better then, and I can do better now. I see no reason to throw good money after bad. Like Joe said, a knee Jerk reaction.

The only. Way the two of you ever got your accounts back is that I found someone - in Brazil, no less - that knew how to rebuild the user table by hand. I didn't have much to lose when the forums crashed in January, and Dan rebuilt the forums from fragmented backups and errored files. It was a freaking miracle and a Hail Mary pass, but it worked.

I do everything I can to return this to a peaceful, one minded and free thinking place, and this is what I have to put up with?

Seriously? Enough. The topic or debate isn't going to change. We might as well lock this here right now, but I am not going to do that.

Carry on, as us your right. Just realize that we are all paying for it, literally - every "Friend of UC" and myself. Enjoy...

[montecarlojoe]

A quick FYI - I scouted around a bit and Soft delete is a native feature in the next major update to PHPBB which powers UC. When we go from v 3.0.12 to 3.1.x it'll be part of the package. However there is no hard date for the 3.1 release yet.

[CBJ]

I do everything I can to return this to a peaceful, one minded and free thinking place, and this is what I have to put up with?

Free thinking place???......If this was a true statement, you would not be deleting threads/comments.
Mike every time you comment, you don't address the issues. We know you did a lot to retrieve my (and Pierre's) account(s), but that doesn't excuse what is taking place at UC at all.

And locking up these threads would amplify these issues ten fold.

I know you've been telling people that I'm an ass, and I should get my panties untwisted.... like this is my fault???
I'm obviously in the majority.. by far. MOST people are upset/angry with what you've done/are doing.. another mod has even stepped down.
So, why bad mouth me behind my back?

Oh.. and making a thread about Robert in the playing card section, and then locking it.. isn't what people were talking about. Because it was locked, it will most likely drop off page 1 by tonight.

[Eoghann]

Aside from what Mike did weeks ago, nothing has been censored since.

Free thinking place???......If this was a true statement, you would not be deleting threads/comments.
Mike every time you comment, you don't address the issues.

And locking up these threads would amplify these issues ten fold.

Oh.. and making a thread about Robert in the playing card section, and then locking it.. isn't what people were talking about. Because it was locked, it will most likely drop off page 1 by tonight.

He hasn't censored anything since this thread started and even a few days prior. We've made sure of that. If anything has been deleted, it's been with the intent to funnel the discussion into this thread so the entire forum isn't riddled with it. Some users have expressed their discontent with seeing this topic pop up everywhere so it's only fair on them that it remains focused here.

He's not addressing the issue because we've asked him not to get involved. Precisely for this same reason. Any comment he makes only serves as kindling for the fire. He's already said his piece, admitted he screwed up and that's enough. Let's try to focus on making this work. This thread will remain open indefinitely.

The decision to lock that thread and move on to General is just a logistical one. We're not trying to cover anything up. We won't break rules and move this thread just because some think it'll get more exposure someplace else. We stick to the predetermined rules. That's not up for debate.

And would you please stop cherry picking your arguments? We're already going through the motions to make sure this doesn't happen again (which was the point of this thread, was it not?), yet you seem to filter those conversations and only reply to things that exacerbate the problem.

Or to put it simply: what do you want, Jason? How can we make this better?

No threads will be moved, deleted or locked as long as they are in the relevant section of the forum. I'm an ardent proponent of free speech and highly opposed to censorship, and I'm sure most, if not every mod is on the same page and we'll work together to make sure it stays that way.

[sinjin7]

If Mike or his mods read something they don't like or feel is a threat to their businesses, they're just going to delete or modify posts, or lock threads, or move them to obscure parts of the forum now?

Woah, let's not throw the mods in that bucket. In many cases the mods are quite vehemently against some of the content that was posted and the mixing of the various business interests. In part this is why CBJ and myself both stepped down. I know there are other mods that don't agree with everything (or even the majority) of Mike's posts and to Mike's credit he is finally taking a step back and listening. Mods have been known to move/delete Mike's posts as well (although perhaps not as often as should have been done).

I am taking a wait and see approach but I do have hopes that things are looking better.

Sorry Strag, I shouldn't have been so general by lumping in all the mods with the censorship. I don't think you or Jay should've stepped down as mods, by the way, but that just shows the degree to how much you and Jay wanted to stand by your principles.

It's been suggested that aside from Jay's comments, there haven't been much censoring going on here. Granted, it's not rampant censoring like in a communist regime, but there has been a fair amount that has happened. Just look at albinogragon's post in this thread, that should be a slap in the face for us here at UC. Just off the top of my head, I know there has been posts in the thread about DeckStarter that have been censored as well as posts in the thread about Jackson's screw up of the v.1 Moriarty deck .

I do everything I can to return this to a peaceful, one minded and free thinking place, and this is what I have to put up with?

Seriously? Enough. The topic or debate isn't going to change. We might as well lock this here right now, but I am not going to do that.

Carry on, as us your right. Just realize that we are all paying for it, literally - every "Friend of UC" and myself. Enjoy...

No one disputes the good Mike's done for UC, but he was/is heading down a path that would undo all the good he's done. Even the comment above shows he still has a ways to go and this doesn't exactly instill the highest degree of confidence that he'll be able to separate his economic interest from UC. I'm sure you remaining mods will do what you can, but I'm going to wait and see how things go (especially after CL officially launches) whether everyone and every company gets a fair and equal shake here at UC.

[chach]

I'm pretty much agreeing with Sinjin here, we seem to be very like minded, he's just more eloquent than I am.

I'm part of many forums out on the interwebz and have been and owner and moderator of a few even. Some of these forums are good, some bad and then there are some like this that are riding a SIN wave between the two extremes. The one thing I've noticed throughout my time conversing with folks via computer since the mid 90s is that once the owner of the board starts bringing money into the fold two things happen. 1. Drama increases and B. Membership and participation from anything other than the core goup of members decreases. Now this money situation can either be that forums cost a lot or that they're using the forums to advertise strictly for their preferred businesses. Probably the best forum I'm a member of is for gun owners, specifically Sig Sauer owners. Now are sigs the only brand promoted? No. In fact the biggest thread on the forum (other than a cat picture thread) is a thread promoting Glocks. And the key thing is that the owner of the board does not mix his business with his pleasure. Which I'm sad to say Mike, is exactly what you're doing, mixing business and pleasure.

Think about it, for quite a while under the old mgmnt this used to be an awesome place to come, then Mike F started down the road of, this is my board and I'm paying out my nose and not getting anything in return. Giving out free advice and no royalties, nobody is buying from my shop, etc etc... The forum soon after took a nose dive and Mike R literally saved it, rebuilt it and for a bit it was like a Phoenix risen from the ashes of BMPokerworld. We even patched up our differences with the PCF and membership and participation took off.

Now I'm starting to see history repeat itself. Just look at Mike R's post above and tell me that doesn't bring back memories of Mike F from just over half a year ago and not only that but I've seen more than a few bad comments about the PCF, even though they're a good group of guys and gals. We're going down a very dangerous path here and I don't want to see this forum die again which it surely will if the current mindset doesn't change and change fast. Yes, forums are expensive to run but quite frankly if one is drunning a forum as a business they're doing it for the wrong reason

IME the best way to run and moderate a board is first off don't have it tied to one specific thing and if you do, DO NOT SHOW BIAS. If someone bashes your product, don't ban them or delete their posts. See what you can do to improve. I used to own a forum for my VW car club, but we didn't just promote for our club but rather involved everyone in the area. We quickly became a go to place for information on Volkswagen happenings in California. It would have been very easy to keep it just for my club, promote only the shows and get togethers we held but then we wouldn't have had forum members from all over going there to contribute.

Next is to not delete everything that may be detrimental to ones interests, especially the interests of the owner of the board. Owners should very rarely moderate. Once they do people start up with the "bias" talk. That's why owners have moderators and administrators. And they're two different positions mind you. Administrators setup the board, make sure it's functioning properly, creating forums, sub forums etc... Mods, as the title suggest, moderate the conversations. They are the ones that have the reins on the members and IME it is a very hard job on just how much slack should be in those reins. They should let people speak their minds but at the same time keep them on track. If there are a series of posts that end up being off topic, rather than deleting them, create a new topic and move the posts there, or merge said posts to a different thread. The key thing here is that the delete button is a last resort and should only really be used for hateful / derogatory speech or spam.

TL;DNR VERSION: Seriously, I don't even know why this has to be an issue. For the most part we are adults here, we should damn well be able to act like them. Instead, we have more drama lately than a Telemundo Novela. Ay caramba!

[sinjin7]

The key thing here is that the delete button is a last resort and should only really be used for hateful / derogatory speech or spam.

I couldn't agree with this more!

[Mike Ratledge]

The key thing here is that the delete button is a last resort and should only really be used for hateful / derogatory speech or spam.

I couldn't agree with this more!

The main problem here is that I agree. I've already stated that it was a knee-jerk reaction, not much I can do otherwise.

Everyone here is contributing to the detriment of UC right now, that's kind of odd with the statements made, honestly.

[Strag]

The key thing here is that the delete button is a last resort and should only really be used for hateful / derogatory speech or spam.

I couldn't agree with this more!

The main problem here is that I agree. I've already stated that it was a knee-jerk reaction, not much I can do otherwise.

Everyone here is contributing to the detriment of UC right now, that's kind of odd with the statements made, honestly.

Come on now Mike, everyone? That's an insult to everyone who has posted in this thread.

UC has been and is a great place to come to. People are just upset with a few things and are speaking their minds about them. We all appreciate what you have done for the board, we are just asking that you tone down certain things such as disparaging competing products, derailing threads and disparaging projects. You can't really do those things now that you have competing businesses in so many areas, it's best you take a step back and focus on those interests. There needs to be a line drawn and you are, rightfully or not, going to be held to a higher standard than anyone else over crossing it.

The only other open issue is the association with Robert Butler. Now, obviously you can involve anyone you like in your businesses, the issue people had with him is that the partnership was with his company and UC, not Cyberian Way or CL or any of the other businesses. As a side effect it is also seen as taking away from something that was already becoming an annual favourite: the UC annual awards, which I myself donated 100s of $ in prizes toward. For a new award you want credibility and to be frank, he just lacks any part of it and I see no statement he has made since then that indicates anything to the contrary. This is why I have no partcipated in the awards and will not as long as he is involved.

Same with CL. I still believe you yourself have the best of intentions and in spite of any disagreements we may have about your decisions, I'm still willing to participate as a buyer because I still have a high opinion of you and I believe you to be ethical. However, if I find out that Robert Butler is in any way involved other than the 10 mins he was admin of the FB group... then I will have nothing to do with the project. I simply do not trust the man.

I hope you see these as fair points and take them into consideration when moving forward.

[volantangel]

I dont this this thread is detrimental as well, it gives us a chance to clarify and make things better. But what i want to know, is what should we do from here that we are not already doing ?

Honestly i recall Albinodragon's issue to be very very minor, nothing to do with business at all, just a wrong statement or something.

[Mike Ratledge]

Everyone here is contributing to the detriment of UC right now, that's kind of odd with the statements made, honestly.

Come on now Mike, everyone? That's an insult to everyone who has posted in this thread.

UC has been and is a great place to come to. People are just upset with a few things and are speaking their minds about them. We all appreciate what you have done for the board, we are just asking that you tone down certain things such as disparaging competing products, derailing threads and disparaging projects. You can't really do those things now that you have competing businesses in so many areas, it's best you take a step back and focus on those interests. There needs to be a line drawn and you are, rightfully or not, going to be held to a higher standard than anyone else over crossing it.

The only other open issue is the association with Robert Butler. Now, obviously you can involve anyone you like in your businesses, the issue people had with him is that the partnership was with his company and UC, not Cyberian Way or CL or any of the other businesses. As a side effect it is also seen as taking away from something that was already becoming an annual favourite: the UC annual awards, which I myself donated 100s of $ in prizes toward. For a new award you want credibility and to be frank, he just lacks any part of it and I see no statement he has made since then that indicates anything to the contrary. This is why I have no partcipated in the awards and will not as long as he is involved.

Same with CL. I still believe you yourself have the best of intentions and in spite of any disagreements we may have about your decisions, I'm still willing to participate as a buyer because I still have a high opinion of you and I believe you to be ethical. However, if I find out that Robert Butler is in any way involved other than the 10 mins he was admin of the FB group... then I will have nothing to do with the project. I simply do not trust the man.

I hope you see these as fair points and take them into consideration when moving forward.

Good points, Strag, and the case can certainly be made that I have always (six months, anyway) done this for the fun of it, and as far as UC is concerned, that's not going to change.

From a strictly definition standpoint, I can't argue otherwise - CardLauncher is certainly not a "not for profit" company. However, the best intentions here on both sides of the argument - at least from my perspective - are a bit misguided. I'm guilty - already said that - but certainly everyone here is trying to pile on while "I'm down". Well, I'm not - that's the point. I'm quite aware that it was an unpopular move. It's still my website, and if people don't like it they are free to go elsewhere.

I certainly hope not, that's been my goal all along, to consolidate this admittedly small marketplace into one, which is still my goal. I can't say more on that subject until I have more to say. (huh?)

Anyway, point being: I didn't undertake this project to liberate the cash from each of your wallets, I did it - as all along - as a way to better the KS paradigm, which is frankly badly broken, especially for playing card decks project campaigns. I undertook a campaign long ago to make KS more accountable, both to backers, and to campaign creators, and they have done a little something for the people that make them money, but as far as looking out for the little guy - it obviously ain't happening.

That being a given, at the point about two months ago when I had the opportunity to turn this from a quiet agenda to a wider scale, let's just go ahead and say "global". I did a whole lot of work on this project without saying a word to a soul except for my wife, to excuse the late-night and all-night efforts to turn it from "dream to reality" as I am fond of saying.

At this point, it's VERY real, it's very alive, and despite the efforts of some to quiet things down, I'm not the least bit deterred in my efforts to - once and for all - "have my day" with KS. It's certainly not what I imagined it might be six months ago when I started, nor even two months ago when I let a couple of close friends into the party. I'm glad it's an open forum, such things just wouldn't be tolerated any many other places. I hope it never changes, but that doesn't alleviate my duty to keep people on topic, away from personal confrontation and "flame wars", and that's where we are at this point - much to my dismay.

I've agreed to stay out of it - mostly - and let the mods take care of things for me, because frankly, I could work from 4 or 5AM when I get up until my wife retrieves me from my LaZ-Boy around 1 or 2AM every day. I can't argue the point that I need more sleep, that's a fact. I also can't argue that I have made some bad judgment calls here recently, that's also a fact. Neither can I totally ignore my duties to everyone else here in the process. I won't lock this topic, just as I said before, and no amount of bellicose thunder will change that. This is, however, my forum, and I won't ignore the fact that people are trying to tear it down all the time saying they're trying to keep it the same. If that were true, we would have had these discussions in private over PMs.

It's not true, and neither is the observation that I don't care what people think about Bobby Butler being associated with UC by way of the PlayingCardAwards or otherwise. I do, don't be silly. It's not going to change my mind, no matter how belligerent people get, so you might as well save it for the next flame wars, because this is my last comment on the subject, period. Bobby is - regardless of what everyone thinks - different. I've talked to Paul Carpenter, I've talked to "4PM", and both say they just would rather not dredge up something more than two years old. Huh? That's what _I_ said before all this mess started. Oh, well - I won't say I was correct to start with...

[sprouts1115]

Interesting conversation. Have we said all that we needed to say? Can we save up a big "I told you So" for Mike if Robert screws up. I'm probably the biggest offender of "Modified by Moderator" Mods are necessary for ppl like me. I have a tendency to post quote prices from the USPCC. Don't forget the past, but can we move on. Any posts after this should have good merit.

[montecarlojoe]

You are a unique and wonderful individual Sprouts!

[volantangel]

Haha sprouts you are the single most resilient quirk (not in a bad way) the forum has ever met

[Mike Ratledge]

This is a big reason we rarely post here. The few times we did after Mike took over and we pointed out he was wrong on an issue, our posts were deleted.

So, this is your only memory, Eric? Seriously? Anyway - off topic, but isn't DragonSoul yours? There's an outbound PM waiting for her that's been sitting for about two weeks.

[albinodragon]

Isn't it enough that right after you took over you immediately deleted two of my posts that pointed out you were clearly wrong after trying to insult my current staff?

I think you may be missing the point that many lurkers might be more willing to engage if they didn't have to worry about you taking your ball and going home every time you get upset.

I don't know what DragonSoul is, if you want to PM me, this is my only account on here.

[Eoghann]

I thought DragonSoul was simply a user whose favorite deck, or deck that started it all was Name of the Wind. Hence the avatar. I believe he/she explained that a while ago. I never got the impression that user was part of Albino Dragon.

[Mike Ratledge]

Isn't it enough that right after you took over you immediately deleted two of my posts that pointed out you were clearly wrong after trying to insult my current staff?

I think you may be missing the point that many lurkers might be more willing to engage if they didn't have to worry about you taking your ball and going home every time you get upset.

I don't know what DragonSoul is, if you want to PM me, this is my only account on here.

Ah, sorry - I thought with the icon she uses might be a friend. I remember, one of my early stumbles, as I recall I said something stupid, certainly won't be the last time.

[sprouts1115]

Like I said can we drop this and leave this as a big "I told you so" if Mike screws up. Any posts after this should have good merit... Eric you should post more. Your words are wisdom. I love your reviews on yourself. It's a wealth of information. How many ppl criticizes themselves?

[Mirror]

To me it seems that since Mike started seeing other deck artists or playing card companies as direct competition for his projects, things have gone downhill. Obviously, I can't look into people's heads but that's the impression I've got every time I visit the forums recently. Maybe the fact that Mike makes playing cards his business while owning a forum about the same topic just makes things very difficult.

[SBurk49]

After reading a few of these I see a bunch of complaints, and concerned discussions... but everyone is still here. So....

NOT that I want ANYONE to leave... but uh...

Censorship happens. Whether its right or not. It happens, end of story. And the story will ALWAYS benefit those in charge.

Like Sprouts said, "I aint even mad tho..."